Alliance Players DID NOT Save Suramar

[Bladesyphon]

Or...and here me out on this - the Nightborne turned their backs on the Alliance after Tyrande's treatment of them, regardless of who helped to secure Suramar. It's the same concept of what happened in Mists with Jaina. The Sindorei were on the verge of joining the Alliance, when good 'ole crazy Jaina went and had her little hissy fit in Dalaran, thus ending any chance of the race rejoining the Alliance.

Using this concept, it doesn't matter which faction saved Suramar. If it was Horde, then Tyrande made the choice all the easier for Thalyrssa to side with them. If it was the Alliance, then Tyrande still lead to the same result, it was just harder for Thalyrssa after having worked side by side with the Alliance champion. Either way, it's thanks to one haughty, arrogant, and prideful Night Elf that the Nightborne joined the Horde, not the Alliance.

[Destinas]

I haven't seen anyone ever claim that the Alliance had more to do with the Suramar campaign than the Horde. I see people complaining that the Alliance didn't get Nightborne as well, when they had equal participation as the Horde. Which, in the end, is the truth. The Horde and Alliance quests were, essentially, the same - some things are changed around, and some quests have different texts. Of course, lore-wise, it does make sense for the Nightborne to ally with the elves that have had nearly the exact same experience as themselves (as well as the faction that showed more sympathy).

If there's a post or thread where people are saying that the Alliance did the Suramar campaign and the Horde didn't, please enlighten me. Otherwise, there's really no reason for this thread, imo. Both Alliance and Horde players were shown the same story, and participated equally. The Horde didn't save Suramar more than the Alliance - it was just a storyline about a bunch of elves begrudgingly working together.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What OP said is bullshit anyways. What you do ingame, whether you're Alliance or Horde is canon. Furthermore, there's no official book/comic/statements/whatever that says what OP claims (that it was purely the Horde-faction and a Horde-Champion who was involved in Suramar).

But yeah, as others already said, the reason why the Nightborne have joined the Horde is because of the events that happen in 7.3.5 while unlocking them as a Horde player.

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You're objectively wrong as the Alliance (and Horde) players are in fact the "Heros", ingame as well as in the lore.

Ya no what we do in game really isn’t cannon, varian killed ony not us, Dorian raised classic naxx not us, just because you do something in game doesn’t mean it happened in the lore.

[RobertMugabe]

Ya no what we do in game really isn’t cannon, varian killed ony not us, Dorian raised classic naxx not us, just because you do something in game doesn’t mean it happened in the lore.

What is said in the mangas and some books isn't necessarily canon*, but what happens ingame totally is. I mean, I don't know how to phrase this correctly (english ain't my first language), but the "Warcraft Lore" would be irrelevant if this wasn't the case. That's like having a game like GTA 5 and whatever happens there isn't canon in the GTA lore (maybe that's not the best example). After all, the books (and other lectures) are based of the Warcraft Games (WC1,2,3 and WoW) and not the other way around (I am aware though.

That being said though, even if you were right... there is no source that claims what OP said. He just pulled this out of his ass

* Mangas/Comics and RPG books are confirmed that they are not canon, while the regular books are complicated sometimes:

...yeah, the novels are pretty much considered canon, ahm, the funny thing is that some things are less canon, you know, but we shoot for canon... that's a strange statement... we shoot for canon... but yeah, typically the characters in novels are canon.

dccomics.com/media/podcasts/DCComics_2007-07-28_Wow_Its_World_of_WarCraft_San_Diego_Comic_Con_2007.mp3 (links broken unfortunately)

It's more of a: "some things are more canon than others"... either way, the game is always on top of this (If there is a Statement from Blizzard though where they say that the books [not a specific one, but generally] are more correct, then I'm taking this back ofc).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

What is said in the mangas and some books isn't necessarily canon*, but what happens ingame totally is. I mean, I don't know how to phrase this correctly (english ain't my first language), but the "Warcraft Lore" would be irrelevant if this wasn't the case. That's like having a game like GTA 5 and whatever happens there isn't canon in the GTA lore (maybe that's not the best example). After all, the books (and other lectures) are based of the Warcraft Games (WC1,2,3 and WoW) and not the other way around (I am aware though.

That being said though, even if you were right... there is no source that claims what OP said. He just pulled this out of his ass

* Mangas/Comics and RPG books are confirmed that they are not canon, while the regular books are complicated sometimes:


dccomics.com/media/podcasts/DCComics_2007-07-28_Wow_Its_World_of_WarCraft_San_Diego_Comic_Con_2007.mp3 (links broken unfortunately)

It's more of a: "some things are more canon than others"... either way, the game is always on top of this (If there is a Statement from Blizzard though where they say that the books [not a specific one, but generally] are more correct, then I'm taking this back ofc).

I would agree that there’s no evidence to what the op claims but still the ashbringer and varian comics are pretty much 100% cannon we do a lot of stuff in game Aton of that isn’t cannon while say the ashbringer comic explaining dorians background and how the ashbringer got corrupt is.

[Enkrypt]

The Alliance saved Suramar, yes.

But Tyrande made her stance pretty clear: We stand with you against the Legion, but after that...

In other words, the Alliance might have saved the Nightborne as to prevent the Legion from bolstering their ranks, but not as a way to make new allies against the horde.

The Alliance did not single-handedly save Suramar and/or the Nightborne. False.

Tyrande was insensitive and instead of being concerned with forging a new ally, she was was condescending and unwilling to trust the Nightborne. It cost the Alliance a formidable ally as I'm sure by default, Thalyssra would have considered joining her native people. I believe she even alludes to this a bit in quest dialogue.

To conclude, the Alliance did not single-handedly save the Nightborne. They merely helped.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

And for good reason.

Point is they've allowed magi in since at least the Cataclysm.

Yes, but again, as quoted in my post, they may have allowed them back in but the wounds are still there. You don't simply forget the single biggest cataclysm your race ever faced because of the abuse of a given group. The healing is gradual - and since the Nightborne are part of these elves that have caused the cataclysm in the first place -- and who selfishly hid behind a veil for ten thousand years, it's unsurprising that the night elves are so frisky to attempt anything.

The Alliance did not single-handedly save Suramar and/or the Nightborne. False.

Tyrande was insensitive and instead of being concerned with forging a new ally, she was was condescending and unwilling to trust the Nightborne. It cost the Alliance a formidable ally as I'm sure by default, Thalyssra would have considered joining her native people. I believe she even alludes to this a bit in quest dialogue.

To conclude, the Alliance did not single-handedly save the Nightborne. They merely helped.

As far as I know, that's my point. But you've probably caught only a part of the argument.

[Deleted]

So I didn't see the part of Legion in-between the broken shore and Dalaran where the Player Character renounces their faction loyalties and representation of that faction they've been apart of for years in favor of an order of similarly studied people..... DK's and DH's could be neutral parties... But any one else... please.... No one renounced citizenship to the Horde or the Alliance, they just took up the cause of the order.... You are telling me Liadrin is no longer Horde because shes a member of the silver hand too? Come on.... Was she in Suramar on the Silver Hands behalf or the Hordes?

An UN soldier, diplomat or leader don't represent their own nations when they go on missions, they represent the United Nations.

Same here, the player didn't represented the Alliance nor the Horde, it represented its Class Order on Suramar. The diplomatic actions with the factions only happened during 7.2 and it was majorly an attempt against the Legion.

[Enkrypt]

As far as I know, that's my point. But you've probably caught only a part of the argument.

I read the whole argument, contrary to your statement. You said, and I quote, "The Alliance saved Suramar, yes." That implies they did it alone. The rest of your post does not clarify that they only helped.

After all, clarifying that is the reason this thread was created.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

I read the whole argument, contrary to your statement. You said, and I quote, "The Alliance saved Suramar, yes." That implies they did it alone. The rest of your post does not clarify that they only helped.

After all, clarifying that is the reason this thread was created.

That is but one of my post on the matter. Regardless, the sentence itself does not indicate that no other parties were present to save them. The alliance did save the Nightborne. So did the Blood Elves and, well, themselves.

[therealbowser]

I have never heard anyone argue this. Not even once. You are taking things out of context I suspect.

They are saying "We played a major role in helping Suramar." Even if you ignore the player character's contribution, Tyrande made a massive investment into freeing the Nightborne, regardless of whether or not she was doing it for selfish reasons or was nice to Thalryssa (sp?) is totally irrelevant.

This isn't to say, "The Nightborne should have joined the Alliance instead!" This is saying that the nightborne shouldn't have rushed to join the Horde so haphazardly. There should have been deep debates with the blood elves' political cunning winning the day over the night elves' severe lack of ability in the matter.

Instead, Blizzard simplified it to "Tyrande is a meanie." "I know, she's a meanie to us, too. You should join us, because we're nicer." "Okay... *sniffle*"

Yeah, I'm paraphrasing, but it feels just as ridiculous to me, especially when this could have been a substantially more interesting scenario, especially if they involved Alleria (Who they also did the honor of looking ridiculously foolish in front of them, and on multiple occasions in case a single time just wasn't enough).

Don't get me wrong, nightborne are well suited to the Horde and I like the race. I just think Blizzard handled this really, really badly.

[Littleraven]

Pretty sure they helped. The whole first half of that storyline was a joint effort. The Insurrection stuff can be debated but planting the tree and curing the Nightborne was for sure a joint effort. Otherwise why even let Alliance do it?

Personally I really don't care that the Horde gets them but between them and the Void Elves Blizzard really dropped the ball on reasons for them ending up where they did. Retconning things is fine but it's a stretch to be like "Oh yeah. Horde did the bulk of that major story beat.

[Orby]

It's like how in canon the Alliance is the faction that defeated the Lich King... or was that Garrosh in SoO? I remember it being some end boss. I cannot remember where I read that but I'll see if I can find it.

[dunhildas]

So for Gameplay sake, I'm wondering when I get to play and do the Horde Questlines as an Alliance, oh wait, your point was pooped on.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Didn't we partake in the campaign as leaders of our Order Halls, rather than faction?

[dunhildas]

Khadgar specifically says in Silithus that he refuses to take sides.

He is canonically neutral.

The council of six voted at the start of Legion to become neutral once again; that's why Jaina left.

That is to say, they wasn't neutral and were to defeat a greater evil.

[Alvito]

I mean... if we're talking about in-game lore, they're not wrong. Alliance had a huge part in it.

If we really want to look at it that way we could keep being silly and look at wowprogress and see how many more horde guilds cleared the raid in heroic or mythic.

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In-game lore is what matters over canon lore in-game.

My alliance toons were in Suramar. They were fighting demons and keeping the Nightborne faction leader alive by the skin of her teeth. Now she is joining the opposite faction and killing people in mine.

Thats just horribly bad written lore. Allied races should've been neutral. It makes the most sense.

The same is true for all of the 4 races we have now though. Nightborne makes the most sense of all the loosely written races based off of how faction leaders treated them. A close second would be Void Elves. The other 2 races are just cop outs.

[clevin]

Either way, it's thanks to one haughty, arrogant, and prideful Night Elf that the Nightborne joined the Horde, not the Alliance.

And that's shit writing.

Look, let's say I'm hiking in and I find you stranded in the wilderness, starving, without water and sick from something. I help you to safety over a period of days or weeks... feeding you, giving you water, treating you for a disease you'd caught and eventually finding you a cure and getting you to a place where you were OK. Then, someone else from my party is rude to you. You're REALLY going to turn around and ignore everything that I did because of that one incident? One instance of rudeness is more important than days or weeks of me saving your life?

Yeah, no. No one would act like that.

[Stelio Kontos]

The other 2 races are just cop outs.

I understand why the Highmountain and Lightforged joined their respective factions. Of course you'll join your kin over people who are actively at war with them. it makes sense for the Highmountain to want to join up with other Tauren, and it makes even more sense for a band of Draenei to want to join up with the other only band of non-Manar'i Draenei out there.

It's like me being Greek, for example. Of course I'd join a Greek organization or group over, say, a Turkish one. One is made by people I have so much in common with; the other is people who have, or could easily start, killing those same people.

[Mic_128]

And that's shit writing.

Look, let's say I'm hiking in and I find you stranded in the wilderness, starving, without water and sick from something. I help you to safety over a period of days or weeks... feeding you, giving you water, treating you for a disease you'd caught and eventually finding you a cure and getting you to a place where you were OK. Then, someone else from my party is rude to you. You're REALLY going to turn around and ignore everything that I did because of that one incident? One instance of rudeness is more important than days or weeks of me saving your life?

Yeah, no. No one would act like that.

I think a better example would be you and a party of explorers find someone lost and sick and in need of assistance. You help while the others of your party give you snide jabs the entire trip about their dumb decision making and how stupid they must be while saving their life, with you doing the bulk of the work. You get back to civilisation and you ask them to come and hang out with you and your snide, rude friends. There's no way they would.