We can ABSOLUTELY pretend WoD never happened

[Captain Kennedy]

Now, when applying that logic to AU-Draenor, the Bronze Dragonflight (or rather, just one with immense power that we supplied him with) went back in time, to Draenor, prior to its destruction, and sought to do whatever it was he was trying to do (aside from being an assclown). This is the same thing that the Infinite Dragonflight keeps attempting to do throughout the Caverns of Time at Murozond's behest. Fortunately, Azeroth, and the timeline we're currently in, is the Prime timeline and it cannot and should not be tampered with. Azeroth has Titan-empowered guardians to protect it (Bronze Dragonflight) and us, the Players. So we go back to where the Infinite Dragonflight were trying to change/alter history, specifically so there weren't Splinter/Parallel Azeroths.

But no such guardians exist on Draenor, so the chucklehead that went back, was able to twist and splinter AU-Draenor off, creating its own little place in the Twisting Nether.

I believe (I don't have time to search for a source at the moment) that the Blues have stated that AU-Draenor is unique and stands alone. As in there's no AU-Azeroth (likely because it houses a Titan Soul, while Draenor didn't).

And I might be completely wrong in this, and i'm ok with that, but it seems the most plausible in my opinion.

This is wonderful speculation, but the problem is the evidence points in the other direction. Afrasiabi likes his universe breaking multiverse crap.
For the record as convoluted as it is, yours is a far better explanation story wise Molvonos. Again, most people didn't utterly despise WoD's time travel until Afrasiabi dropped his 6.2 turd. It's the main reason people want WoD struck from the canon.

This is the answer Afrasiabi gave in the interview at Blizzcon:

Q: I still get the same question over and over again -- is there an alternate Azeroth to go with the alternate Draenor?
AA: Yes!

Q: Are we going to see it?
AA: I would never say never, but it's not planned right now.

Q: I'm kind of wondering what that place looks like. I imagine it's really interesting.
AA: Absolutely, and this is a precedent here, that there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right, I mean it's something we bounced around the previous Caverns of Time stuff sort of -- like we kind of skirted it -- and we embraced it with this one. Like this is what we're talking about here, right. And if you're a true time travel nerd, you understand that's the only way time travel works anyway.

Q: The whole idea of alt universe and time jump -- were there ever any concerns that this was taking it too far away from that story that we've been playing the past ten years, the one on Azeroth, with the Aspects and the Old Gods and everything else? Is this removing it too far, or is this actually going to tie back into all of that in a cohesive way?

AA: Well at its most basic, at its simplest level, it absolutely ties back into it, right, because why would we go back there in the first place? We had to go back there though as a reaction to Garrosh pushing forth, or the Iron Horde as it were. It was an active an immediate threat to Azeroth. So in that regard, in its simplest form, there was a grander threat. Just like every expansion. (Source)

It's also consistent to what Kairoz said when he first brought Garrosh to AU Draenor - that he searched through the timeways, and it was the most suitable one. He didn't create or summon it to our universe. Essentially, he opened a portal / made a connection between two universes (space) and to the past of the alternate universe (time) instead of just going back in time of our universe like the Bronze Dragonflight did.

While there isn't any confirmation, there are also signs of Alternate Azeroths housing world-souls as well, based on the AU versions of Azeroth heroes that Kairoz summoned in "War Crimes". At very least, we know there is a Sunwell, there are dragonflights, and the NE experienced the Sundering in those AUs - making it very likely that there was an Well of Eternity over there, and the WoE wouldn't have existed (at least based on our Azeroth) without the World Soul's blood.

I am greatly concerned Afrasiabi might continue down the path of this multiverse crap. This presents more paradoxes the longer you look into it. By current logic there are multiple Velens which means multiple Arguses as well, are they all Legion worlds? Christ. Kosak should have been put in charge in Metzen's departure, not Afrasiabi.

*quoted posts were edited down slightly to reduce this post being a wall of text, if anyone finds something wrong with either post please refer to the originals*

[Qualia]

I am greatly concerned Afrasiabi might continue down the path of this multiverse crap. This presents more paradoxes the longer you look into it. By current logic there are multiple Velens which means multiple Arguses as well, are they all Legion worlds? Christ. Kosak should have been put in charge in Metzen's departure, not Afrasiabi.

Well, we know that at least by Legion, they are still sticking with the idea of having a multiverse. In the novel "Illidan", Vandel, upon taking a demon's soul inside his own and becoming a DH, received a vision of the multiverse and saw the Legion assaulting many worlds in it, marched on triumphant; That there were many Azeroths, but in every single of them, his son died in an infinity of different ways - and he was always powerless to prevent it.

Whether they would give the existence of the multiverse (instead of just an universe and possible timelines of it) any significant role in story again is unclear, though. Perhaps not , given how badly WoD's story was received by many players?

[MORGATH99]

nah i love wod will never forget it , even more so now that we getting draenor orcs as allied races

[Captain Kennedy]

Well, we know that at least by Legion, they are still sticking with the idea of having a multiverse. In the novel "Illidan", Vandel, upon taking a demon's soul inside his own and becoming a DH, received a vision of the multiverse and saw the Legion assaulting many worlds in it, marched on triumphant; That there were many Azeroths, but in every single of them, his son died in an infinity of different ways - and he was always powerless to prevent it.

Whether they would give the existence of the multiverse (instead of just an universe and possible timelines of it) any significant role in story again is unclear, though. Perhaps not , given how badly WoD's story was received by many players?

Afrasiabi seemed quite surprised when people started poking holes in his multiverse and nether logic, so here's hoping.

nah i love wod will never forget it , even more so now that we getting draenor orcs as allied races

WoD isn't entirely irredeemable. It did some great world building for our Draenor/Outland, provided interesting stories on a small scale and it was great getting our first look at the world pre-planet exploding since Wc2. It's a shame that 6.2 leaves such a massive crap on not just on WoD but all Warcraft lore, and it's hard to look past that in the grand scheme of things. All these points are from a pure story / lore perspective btw, gameplay is another discussion entirely.

[Molvonos]

~Snip~

I recalled there was a blue post, just couldn't remember the contents. And that's very unfortunate. A multiverse makes little sense, fundamentally. Parallel worlds/splinter timelines, certainly. But there's a great many concerns that come up.

If the Legion has access to all these Timelines/worlds, yet the Titans didn't, what gives the Legion access to the timelines? Is it the Twisting Nether or the Fel? Time-based things, should logically, be bound to the Arcane side of things (which it generally is in game), so perhaps the Fel-based chaos gives enough power to screw or ignore timelines.

But if the latter is the case, how do the infinite dragonflight have access to it without being tainted by fel? Since we learned they were tainted by the Old Gods (void) influence?

Unless fel and void have access to this very same time-breaking skill-set.

Having access to time-breaking while also being able to regenerate within the Twisting Nether seems redundant and, imo, poor writing. But if the Twisting Nether is where they demons gain their 'Multiverse-whateverisms' from, perhaps they don't actually regenerate, but rather, another version of that demon just replaces them. Infinite timelines, infinite multiverse, infinite demons.

Of course, we're not 100% what the real benefit of Sargeras' corruption of Argus was, save that it allowed for 'faster regeneration'.

If there are multiple Azeroths, each one a little different than the last, why didn't the Legion just find the easiest one to conquer instead of slamming their collective heads against 'Prime Azeroth'?

I dunno, these are things that should have been thought of as a writer. I love WoW lore, for the most part, but it feels at times they try to introduce fresh blood (or people not really familiar with Warcraft lore) for some reason or another.

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~Snip~

Figured i'd add you to the quote since you took the time to respond too.

[Caerule]

WoD had some issues. A main one for me is that the events that happened on Draenor had no impact at all on the story of Azeroth whatsoever. Expansions like, Wrath, Cataclysm, MoP and Legion move the game's story forward.

Alternate WoD story:
1. Iron Horde invade Azeroth.
2. The heroes of Azeroth invade alternate Azeroth.
3. As the portal is destroyed, the heroes and a freed Gul'dan flee to Azeroth.
4. Legion happens.

That alternate story of 5 minutes would have made just as much impact as the 2 years we actually spent on Draenor. That sucks.

It's why I'm very happy with the coming of Draenor Orcs. WoD did bring a lot of lore to Draenor and the orc clans. And anything to validate the 2 years of our lives we spent there, sounds good to me. It's a bit Horde-biased, sure. But maybe Yrel could come to Azeroth too?

[Qualia]

If the Legion has access to all these Timelines/worlds, yet the Titans didn't, what gives the Legion access to the timelines? Is it the Twisting Nether or the Fel? Time-based things, should logically, be bound to the Arcane side of things (which it generally is in game), so perhaps the Fel-based chaos gives enough power to screw or ignore timelines.

But if the latter is the case, how do the infinite dragonflight have access to it without being tainted by fel? Since we learned they were tainted by the Old Gods (void) influence?

Unless fel and void have access to this very same time-breaking skill-set.

Having access to time-breaking while also being able to regenerate within the Twisting Nether seems redundant and, imo, poor writing. But if the Twisting Nether is where they demons gain their 'Multiverse-whateverisms' from, perhaps they don't actually regenerate, but rather, another version of that demon just replaces them. Infinite timelines, infinite multiverse, infinite demons.

Of course, we're not 100% what the real benefit of Sargeras' corruption of Argus was, save that it allowed for 'faster regeneration'.

If there are multiple Azeroths, each one a little different than the last, why didn't the Legion just find the easiest one to conquer instead of slamming their collective heads against 'Prime Azeroth'?

I dunno, these are things that should have been thought of as a writer. I love WoW lore, for the most part, but it feels at times they try to introduce fresh blood (or people not really familiar with Warcraft lore) for some reason or another.

I believe it's the Twisting Nether that allow the Legion to access all the alternate universes, as it exist outside of all realities (means physical universes in WoW context based on Chronicle), but is connected to all of them.

Time-traveling is another matter, however. Basically, anyone or anything can travel through time if they are powerful enough and can gather enough power. In CoT, the Custodian of Time told us that "For normal maintenance of time, the Keepers of Time are sufficient caretakers. We are able to deal with most ordinary disturbances. I speak of little things such as rogue mages changing something in the past to elevate their status or wealth in the present." - if random rogue mages can travel to the past to change it, the Legion which houses some of the more powerful magic-users in the universe (well, technically, out of it ) should be able to do it as well. The Bronze Dragonflight can do it, and thus, the Infinite Dragonflight - which presumably is the corrupted version of the Bronze Dragonflight in the future - can do it.

The Bronze Dragonflight's power allowed them to see past and future with perfect clarity, but it no longer works that well after Cataclysm according to Chromie. Presumably, though, similar to opening a portal through space, going to the past cost more power the further you go, so maybe that's why the Legion couldn't just keep going back to WoTA and zerg rush us (not to mention that there are the Bronze Dragonflight to protect the timeways / timelines too). I'm not sure if they could have been able to travel back to AU Draenor (which is travelling through *both* time and space) that freely if Kairoz didn't open the connection between our present and AU past when he escaped with Garrosh to that certain timeway by using the Vision of Time - and even so, that action broke the artifact in process.

And the Legion should still have to face the same problem with AUs Azeroth as MU Azeroth. The issue that they have to find a way to get over there first - they are blocked by distance (one so far that they'd rather wait thousand years for a chance to get summoned rather than just started moving towards us, as ridiculous as it might sound) and they, unlike their braggings, do not have infinite resources. Demons can regenerate in the Nether, but they still need time to come back. Since they are singular entities, they don't have literally infinite number of soldiers throughout the multiverse and those assigned to invade one world can't be used for another until they finish their job. With those limitations, it's fair that they can only try to invade a limited amount of Azeroths instead of going through an infinite amount of our alternate version. While it might make the Legion seems a lot more incompetent, it seems that they did try with at least another AU: the AU version of Kalec that Kairoz opened a portal to go through in "War Crimes" mentioned Aveena sacrificing herself as well (might or might not be against KJ).

[sillag]

if the draenor orcs become an allied race thats basically the end of being able to take the lore seriously

[tikcol]

Stop hiding the pile of dung under the rug.

Stop pretending and take it like a man.

[sam86]

Now why'd you have to go and ruin a good conversation with all of that? When you have to use profanity to try to put make your point you've already lost the argument. Sad, I was having a good time too.

profanity ? how old are u exactly ?

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Uhhh....buddy....

If Sargeras did have multiple Versions of himself, then wouldn't he get them to join his cause, and not make a New Pantheon? Or, if what i'm hearing is true, then there IS only 1 Version of Sargeras, and that you're making some weird shit up. Cause, judging by the Antorus Cinematic, they want Sargeras' Story done and over with. So, in my eyes, I think there's 1 Pantheon, with 1 Sargeras. :/

Nope, Dave "Fargo" Kosak clearly stated out that every universe has its own titans, unless they decided to make him eat his own shit words, the last confirmed official blizzard statement was that each universe has its own titans, while demons are one and same, it was a Q&A back when Hellfire Citadel wasn't release yet (still on ptr) and the dungeon journal of Archimonde puzzled everyone pretty much of why an AU demon 'know about our fight'

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For me WoD will forever patch-like content rather than an expansion, if Blizz had planned WoD as a patch / content filler between expansions, it wud've suited much better.

hindsight is 2020 !

well blizz employee themselves didn't know if 'patch' 6.1 (the infamous selfie patch) was actual patch or not, and if u dig a little u'll find some blizz employees clearly said it isn't a major patch because Blackrock Foundary was tested in WoD beta and 'delayed' and ppl were wondering why exactly, it wasn't until way later that blizz stated that the selfie patch is an official patch and gave it number 6.1, an entire patch where actual work was a selfie cam and twitter connect, because the raid was finished and tested before WoD was even released...

[MikeBogina]

I know you all think WoD sucks, but the lore wasn't so bad, it was the experience. The experience on day one, especially for the Horde sucked. The lack of stuff to do sucked and the patches sucked, but if they had not wasted all that effort on Trashran and the failed Garrisons, we could have had a good expansion.... should have just made Shatrath a mutual city.

[Neversage]

I had fun during WoD. Sure there were bad bits like feeling alone in the Garrison, less content than any expansion, and a nonsensically confusing story that makes Attack of the Clones look good, but I still had fun playing the game. Still, from a lore perspective, it seems like a LOT of extra work just to get Gul'Dan back in the story.

[Halwyn]

Two words.
Cordana
Gul'dan

[sam86]

WoD isn't entirely irredeemable. It did some great world building for our Draenor/Outland, provided interesting stories on a small scale and it was great getting our first look at the world pre-planet exploding since Wc2. It's a shame that 6.2 leaves such a massive crap on not just on WoD but all Warcraft lore, and it's hard to look past that in the grand scheme of things. All these points are from a pure story / lore perspective btw, gameplay is another discussion entirely.

I horribly disagree, WoD ruined many of what used to be good story, mainly how orcs were in wow
-For start Gul'dan was actually from shadowmoon clan, they changed it to a non named clan and gave him a useless tragic backstory that made him less evil, doesn't really fit with "darkness incarnate" when u turn his story if someone hugged him enough he would be a good boy
-Blackhand the greedy who fed his own kids to fel magic to keep his seat of power became - for some reason - a 'heroic' leader who was willing to sacrifice himself for his own clan
-Doomhammer the 2nd biggest orc name ever after Thrall (if not 1st i'd argue) has an insulting role for an Orc like him
-the whole Shattered Hand weird 'origin' that didn't exist prior to wod, and we met them in TBC yet strangely no mention about it until WoD time
-Grom took steroids, Grom who was known as lean agile warrior became twice the size of normal orc, and he became a 'leader', while in MU he was known as hothead and pretty no one listen to him outside of the - also hotheads - warsong clan (it was the reason of orc first defeat on Azeroth, and why he was forced to stay behind in the 2nd war)
-Orcs decided to genocide the Draenei who existed peacefully for 200 years for no reason at all, there is no tricks, no fake visions, no anything, just let's 'conquer' everyone in our world by mass slaughter them for no reason... wtf?
And blizz mash up AU crap with MU, making story doesn't make sense
So all wc3 and stories in warcraft universe up to that point (WoD) were trying to show orcs were honorable PEACEFUL shamanistic race who were forced to fight by being enslaved from the BL... WoD shit on that point, many times Thrall said that Orcs fight because of the bloodlust left in them, and Orcs on their own homeland only fought in self defense against Ogres, so what happened ?
What about the Ogre Lords the 'missing link' between Ogres and Gronns ? Why they don't exist? Did they 'retcon' them? and how can u retcon them when u still say that evolution goes from Grons to Ogres to Orcs? so one link was removed or something?
WoD entire idea was wrong, it is one of only 2 exp so far I didn't buy, at least I do admit that in terms of gameplay WoD had great work, very small, but still was great
I only point out to points prior to 6.2, because u agree that 6.2 is crap too so no need to mention about many points like Kil'rogg or how Grom is 'kool' now

[cparle87]

profanity ? how old are u exactly ?

The need to use profanity usually stems from two situations. One, you hold nothing but contempt for the subject you're talking about so you feel the need to denigrate it. Two, you have very little actual argument to convey so you use it to try to distract others so they don't notice. So I'm done.

[TheFirstOnes]

profanity ? how old are u exactly ?

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Nope, Dave "Fargo" Kosak clearly stated out that every universe has its own titans, unless they decided to make him eat his own shit words, the last confirmed official blizzard statement was that each universe has its own titans, while demons are one and same, it was a Q&A back when Hellfire Citadel wasn't release yet (still on ptr) and the dungeon journal of Archimonde puzzled everyone pretty much of why an AU demon 'know about our fight'

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well blizz employee themselves didn't know if 'patch' 6.1 (the infamous selfie patch) was actual patch or not, and if u dig a little u'll find some blizz employees clearly said it isn't a major patch because Blackrock Foundary was tested in WoD beta and 'delayed' and ppl were wondering why exactly, it wasn't until way later that blizz stated that the selfie patch is an official patch and gave it number 6.1, an entire patch where actual work was a selfie cam and twitter connect, because the raid was finished and tested before WoD was even released...

Kosak was also the guy that said Azeroth was both a he, and that he was dead.

...I won't EVER trust Kosak on anything. Sorry.

[sam86]

The need to use profanity usually stems from two situations. One, you hold nothing but contempt for the subject you're talking about so you feel the need to denigrate it. Two, you have very little actual argument to convey so you use it to try to distract others so they don't notice. So I'm done.

or that u are actually adult and that how we talk normally ? seriously is there an adult who doesn't fucking say fuck in everything fucking annoying thing in daily interactions (or at least some of them)?

Kosak was also the guy that said Azeroth was both a he, and that he was dead.

...I won't EVER trust Kosak on anything. Sorry.

Well unless they decide to say opposite he is an official blizzard employee and his answer is blizzard answer, he won't be first to say something from blizz only to be retconned later, like the whole Med'an story (that is another can of shit worms, not topic now)

[Deleted]

It's pretty damning for WoD that you can wave away an entire expansion with an incredably short story to tie it's loose ends together. Hardly any lasting effect at all.

That said, with allied races and people having a huge boner for purty arakoa's I don't think we will ever be able to forget WoD.

[Fyersing]

I don't really understand why people are so disappointed with Warlords of Draenor, narratively.

The story was heavy-handed, owing to the fact that they elected to fast-track the expansion (because people had nothing to do, therefore were quitting), but there isn't really anything terribly wrong with WoD other than that it ultimately wasn't completed. I don't subscribe to the rationale that because the ending of something wasn't acceptable (either because it was written poorly, or because it simply didn't occur), that the most prudent course of action is to pretend it never happened.

Did the fans of the Dune novels just decide to "pretend it didn't exist" after the author died while penning the final two books? What about Jordan's Wheels of Time? Hell, for all we know, Game of Thrones may find itself in this predicament (though, let's pray not).

Was WoD rushed and, therefore, of poor overall quality? Of course.
Was WoD, ultimately, "ignorable"? Not at all.

[sillag]

I don't really understand why people are so disappointed with Warlords of Draenor, narratively.

The story was heavy-handed, owing to the fact that they elected to fast-track the expansion (because people had nothing to do, therefore were quitting), but there isn't really anything terribly wrong with WoD other than that it ultimately wasn't completed. I don't subscribe to the rationale that because the ending of something wasn't acceptable (either because it was written poorly, or because it simply didn't occur), that the most prudent course of action is to pretend it never happened.

Did the fans of the Dune novels just decide to "pretend it didn't exist" after the author died while penning the final two books? What about Jordan's Wheels of Time? Hell, for all we know, Game of Thrones may find itself in this predicament (though, let's pray not).

Was WoD rushed and, therefore, of poor overall quality? Of course.
Was WoD, ultimately, "ignorable"? Not at all.

tbh other examples dont help much here. very few instalments of anything are on the level of terribleness that wod is on. and wod isnt just bad because the idea is completely stupid but also because they refused to put any real effort into following it through. what about duplicates of orcs/draenei? oh dont worry about that dont think about it. does this mean there are 2 legions now? uh no its the same one. but what about all the implications of that? dont think about it!!!!!

i mean you keep talking about not pretending things dont exist but that is exactly what blizzard did when writing wod. you should put the same amount of respect into wod as the writers did. which is none.

and while it should be forgotten forever if wow is ever going to be great again it looks like they are really going to drag alternate draenor orcs into the story permanently as a subrace and at that point wow's lore is unrecoverable. well we had a good run friends.