I really hate Jaina...

[Ghargatuloth]

Yeah and Garrosh could have solo'd all of stormwind himself! Lol, he strunk enough!

Yeah, hitler wasn't genocidal either, too many jews walking around for him to really be genocidal.

Do you alliance fanboys even take the time to think?

She literally went on a tirade about how she was going to do it, to which Thrall had to talk her down to prevent things from going further. The point is she is willing to listen to reason.

Try again, kiddo.

[Tarba]

The destruction of theramore was a promise from Thrall to Jaina.
If the horde was menaced by Theramore, the next time the city would be destroyed. That's exactly what happened. Blizzard lore people are just retarded and sold it like a "hooo that was really mean from them to retaliate". And some people swallowed it.

[Verdugo]

She literally went on a tirade about how she was going to do it, to which Thrall had to talk her down to prevent things from going further. The point is she is willing to listen to reason.

Try again, kiddo.

Hey guy, someone above you made a nice long post why he hates Jaina, why are you ignoring it, thought you wanted such posts.

[Ghargatuloth]

I like how you're implying she could actually do it by clenching her butt cheeks. That kind of magic would have been like Illidan attacking northrend back in wc3. No, she doesn't have the juice herself, and thrall was like "Oi, cunt, be reasonable. You know and I know how much that would take."

Try again, kiddo.

The levels of denial hordies have is by far the most hilarious I have ever seen in any community, feigning ignorance, splitting hairs, excluding facts while alluding to them indirectly to declare how oppressed they are. Learn what lore is, then MAYBE try to have a coherent discussion.

You aren't worth ANYONE's time, boy.

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Hey guy, someone above you made a nice long post why he hates Jaina, why are you ignoring it, thought you wanted such posts.

You're thinking of someone else, lad, I was not requesting "such posts".

It's the warlock you are thinking of. But it's understandable you'd have trouble keeping up if you are trying to ignore any relevant facts that disprove things you say.

I imagine you read, what? Maybe half of the arguments posed against you, if even.

[valax]

So we're supposed to ignore the fact that Jaina abandoned us during Legion, only to come crawling back at the scent of Horde conflict? What was she up to that whole time? Not only that, but we also have to accept her actions in 5.1 without any mention of it? Didn't Blizzard say they wanted to explore that part of her character? Weren't they planning on making her more level headed and likable this expansion? Judging by her attitude in the Alliance intro on the Alpha, she still acts way too irrational and flanderized. I really want this blind rage stuff to end. It's not who Jaina is.

What do you think? Will Blizzard give Alliance players a reason to like Jaina?

IMO she's better this way , old jaina was a good thing up to wotlk when she had 0 importance . If Blizzard wants her to stick around it's better that she hates us hordies and that she is in a blood frienzy instead of being the virgin mary of wow , we already had a green jesus

[Verdugo]

You're thinking of someone else, lad, I was not requesting "such posts".

It's the warlock you are thinking of. But it's understandable you'd have trouble keeping up if you are trying to ignore any relevant facts that disprove things you say.

I imagine you read, what? Maybe half of the arguments posed against you, if even.

Well to be fair I've hated her since Cataclysm when her true colors were shown and she allowed the Alliance to use Theramoore as a staging ground to attack the barrens.

Fair enough were she not offering peace with one hand and war with the other.

In response to her aggression the Horde destroyed Theramoore and wiped it off the map. Sadly Proudmoore survived and seemed shocked that the Horde had destroyed a military target. I get why she's angry but she seems to think that the attack was completely unwarranted for some reason.

Anyway then she flipflops back to being all peace and shit, rejoins and immediately takes over the Kirin Tor FOR NO APPARENT REASON other than some dead dragon's poem. Obviously this ends in disaster with Jaina breaking neutrality at Darnassus and then raging at the Sunreavers when a single member of their organisation does the same. She orders the Alliance troops she had stashed away to attack and kill anyone they find that is allied with the Horde whilst she goes stomping around wrongfully imprisoning the rest.
She then gives Vereesa and her Silver Covenant free reign to do what they want, leading to thefts, murders and god knows what else. Even shopkeepers are targeted and cut down.

Then the Legion comes, killing Varian, leaving the Alliance in disarray and... she quits. She just leaves. Sure she was voted against by the Kirin Tor but she doesn't even return to Stormwind to help deal with the Legion threat, she just fucks off and leaves the Alliance to deal with the Burning Legion alone. <- that right there is why the Alliance have started to hate her. She hates the Horde so much that she'd have happily let the world burn to get rid of them.
Not even Genn is that pissed at the Horde. He at least sent emissaries to Dalaran in the form of the Greyfang Enclave to help deal with the Legion.

And this isn't even mentioning all the stupid flip-flopping she did in Christie Golden's godawful War Crime book.

She's such a poorly written and inconsistent character, not to mention the fact that she's becoming a complete Mary Sue in BfA, able to somehow be more powerful than a 10000 year old elf with the ability to control time, the player character, a Zandalari princess and an elite Shadow Hunter at the same time? And don't tell me it's all the Thunder king's power, the Thunder King's power is all about lightening, all Jaina used was frost magic.
Plus she barely got a fraction of it, the majority of his power resides with Wrathion. That's even presuming her getting the Thunder King's power is canon at all, seeing as only the Blood Elf equivalent of the quest has had any consequences outside of 5.2 so far.

So yeah, plenty of reasons to hate her from both sides of the fence, it's a topic that's been done to death and she serves no more use to the story once we're done with the Kul Tiras arc. It's time to end her.

This guy, dummy. At least his posts dont look like he was typing with one hand.

Infracted.

[Thage]

She didn't want to work with the Horde and she didn't interrupt the anti-Legion efforts or would you have prefered if she fought the Horde like Genn?

The Burning Legion has been dealt with and now that the Horde burns down Teldrassil, it is obvious she makes a comeback

Except that, of all the Alliance leaders, Jaina has some of the most firsthand experience with how horrible things can get during an all-out Legion invasion (Velen and Tyrande have more experience due to age, but she was active throughout the Third War and became the de facto leader of the Alliance in Kalimdor). Even if she didn't trust the Horde not to fuck things up, it makes no sense for her to abandon the Alliance during an invasion that, according to statements from the devs, dwarfed the Third War and was on par (or worse than) the War of the Ancients. That's the main problem with her character 'development' since MoP: it's all over the place, makes little to no narrative sense when viewed as a cohesive whole, and exists less for Jaina to stand on her own as a character rather than for Jaina to exist as a plot device to facilitate faction hostilities.

Narratively, there's not much difference between post-MoP Jaina and, say, Excalibur or the white whale. Not to mention her constant yo-yoing between the books and game, where a full three years after we already had this plotline in War Crimes, and I can't recall offhand how long it's been since the epilogue of Tides of War where the same plot was quickly established, once again we're recycling the 'Jaina's trauma heals and she looks to be a better person again, pro-Alliance but not necessarily anti-Horde like Sky Admiral Rogers and the perennial fuckup Genn Greymane' plot.

[Ghargatuloth]

This guy, dummy.

This is what I mean, how are you on these forums if you cant even read? I said I wasn't the one requesting well thought out arguments against Jaina, that was FelPlague.

Dummy.

Infracted.

[Trumpcat]

Jaina is the best character in the Warcraft lore, considering the overall level of character development we have in the franchise. She has done great things, she's been insecure, she's been determined, she was naive and in love. The life took her through its many stages, the tragedies and horrors we've seen her go through we haven't seen for any other character. She's done wrong things, but far wrong were done to her. She lost all close people, mentor, friends, lover. She was betrayed more than once. She cried and agonized, but then she'd emerge at the battle front and lead people to victory. She's made her choices and she's done her acts with wisdom and bravery in the pest, with passion and cold determination in the present. The character aged with those of us that know her from 2002 and whether you're enraged by her new zero tolerance towards the Horde or celebrate it, she's gone through one hell of a roller coaster.

[Verdugo]

This is what I mean, how are you on these forums if you cant even read? I said I wasn't the one requesting well thought out arguments against Jaina, that was FelPlague.

Dummy.

Are you interested in discussion then?

[Ghargatuloth]

Are you interested in discussion then?

Indeed, just not willing to get into book length debates or try to debunk someone's opinion on a character which is their own opinion to have. People are free not to like whoever they want.

My purpose in the conversation is simply to get into what Jaina has and has not done. Generally the meaning or reasoning behind it.

As I said, the person who kept requesting others to put forth a long thought out reasoning as to why Jaina is written terribly is a user by the name of FelPlague.

Now, get to reading so that you can actually keep up with the debate at hand. Rather then continuously getting off track and reciting your same two points.

[Rosalynda]

Only 2 out of the 4 known extremist Sylvanas Circle Jerkers have posted here so far, that's much lower than i expected. Hooray for the small things i guess!

So, what have i missed in the last 7 pages? i kinda don't wanna go reading through a lot of the short novels people wrote.

[Verdugo]

Only 2 out of the 4 known extremist Sylvanas Circle Jerkers have posted here so far, that's much lower than i expected. Hooray for the small things i guess!

Well I can see at least 6 alliance circlejerkers here so not much of a win.

[Arrashi]

uhhh what?
are you saying the horde HAS NEVER BETRAYED HER?

The only one who was betrayed was jainas ideals, betrayed by jaina herself. Which is hilarious given how much she preached to others.

[Spiffums]

2. she ditched us during legion for good reason,

If she had clicked mass teleport in her spell book the true King would still be alive.............so no there was no good reason to show her ass and throw a hissy fit.

[FelPlague]

The only one who was betrayed was jainas ideals, betrayed by jaina herself. Which is hilarious given how much she preached to others.

lol yeah... The usual Arrashi response. keep it up please, gives me a nice chuckle.

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Every single one?
Boy, I'd like to hear you walk out of this one with your credibility intact!

Saurfang, he got mad when his son got killed
Baine, he got mad when his father got killed
Sylvanas she got mad at arthas
Gallywix he got mad when he got backstabbed
The troll leaders got mad when voljin died.

all the horde leaders have been "mad" at some point in their lives, and by your logic that means they are all going to go the same route as Arthas.

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I like how you're implying she could actually do it by clenching her butt cheeks. That kind of magic would have been like Illidan attacking northrend back in wc3. No, she doesn't have the juice herself, and thrall was like "Oi, cunt, be reasonable. You know and I know how much that would take."

Try again, kiddo.

uh yes, yes she does have the power, have you not seen some of the power that mages hold in wow?
malfurion summoned a storm so strong is slaughtered MANY horde and alliance members, illidan nearly destroyed A WHOLE FRICKEN CONTINENT

[TickTickTick]

Ah, another of those thread that baits the people with mental sickness, being so obsessed and attached to video game's lore that they spit their hateful posts.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I used to hate Jaina when she did that cooler than everyone else in the middle nonsense, teleporting Varians troops by to stormwind like she did, that alone should have gotten her head put on a pike.

But after what happened at Theramore I began to love Jaina because she stopped being a just a silly Character and finally had a story with some depth. She got off the sidelines and started to act like she cared about her people.

She wasn't a good guy nor did, I agree with the thing she did, but that was the point, I like that she was conflicted, that there was real meat to her story, not just image dressing.

Unfortunately I haven't followed her since WoD because I stopped playing, but I kind of would like to catch up, I feel for her now in a way as a part of the story as more than just Varian or Arthas young virgin nieve pet, but as a player in her own right.

[Rosalynda]

Well I can see at least 6 alliance circlejerkers here so not much of a win.

Well, better win than any of the sylvanas ones, that's for sure!

[FelPlague]

Well to be fair I've hated her since Cataclysm when her true colors were shown and she allowed the Alliance to use Theramoore as a staging ground to attack the barrens.

Fair enough were she not offering peace with one hand and war with the other.

In response to her aggression the Horde destroyed Theramoore and wiped it off the map. Sadly Proudmoore survived and seemed shocked that the Horde had destroyed a military target. I get why she's angry but she seems to think that the attack was completely unwarranted for some reason.

Anyway then she flipflops back to being all peace and shit, rejoins and immediately takes over the Kirin Tor FOR NO APPARENT REASON other than some dead dragon's poem. Obviously this ends in disaster with Jaina breaking neutrality at Darnassus and then raging at the Sunreavers when a single member of their organisation does the same. She orders the Alliance troops she had stashed away to attack and kill anyone they find that is allied with the Horde whilst she goes stomping around wrongfully imprisoning the rest.
She then gives Vereesa and her Silver Covenant free reign to do what they want, leading to thefts, murders and god knows what else. Even shopkeepers are targeted and cut down.

Then the Legion comes, killing Varian, leaving the Alliance in disarray and... she quits. She just leaves. Sure she was voted against by the Kirin Tor but she doesn't even return to Stormwind to help deal with the Legion threat, she just fucks off and leaves the Alliance to deal with the Burning Legion alone. <- that right there is why the Alliance have started to hate her. She hates the Horde so much that she'd have happily let the world burn to get rid of them.
Not even Genn is that pissed at the Horde. He at least sent emissaries to Dalaran in the form of the Greyfang Enclave to help deal with the Legion.

And this isn't even mentioning all the stupid flip-flopping she did in Christie Golden's godawful War Crime book.

She's such a poorly written and inconsistent character, not to mention the fact that she's becoming a complete Mary Sue in BfA, able to somehow be more powerful than a 10000 year old elf with the ability to control time, the player character, a Zandalari princess and an elite Shadow Hunter at the same time? And don't tell me it's all the Thunder king's power, the Thunder King's power is all about lightening, all Jaina used was frost magic.
Plus she barely got a fraction of it, the majority of his power resides with Wrathion. That's even presuming her getting the Thunder King's power is canon at all, seeing as only the Blood Elf equivalent of the quest has had any consequences outside of 5.2 so far.

So yeah, plenty of reasons to hate her from both sides of the fence, it's a topic that's been done to death and she serves no more use to the story once we're done with the Kul Tiras arc. It's time to end her.

thanks just noticed this reading through now!
She did not agress, the alliance did, Yes theramore was her city, but it had nothing to do with dalaran, so what happened in theramore has no connection at all to dalaran, so saying "Cause the alliance uses an alliance city, the horde is fine to use a neutral city" is a bad argument.
A single member? it was much more then a single member, and she does not know it was a single member (if it was, which it obviously wasent) Aethis knew about it and let it happen, and it required infiltrating darn, aswell as moving a large ass bell, and opening portals it was not "one elf"

ok Aeula allmost right away you quickly break everything and start filling it with your fan cannon, why i asked you to explain what you dont like about her, not "what i dont like about the story i made up" she did not order the alliance to kill every single blood elf, she ordered them to be sent to silvermoon, and if they retaliated to be put in the violet hold or killed.

And no she does not "imprison the rest" she teleports those who she finds to silvermoon, well those who retaliate are fought back against or imprisoned.
Innocents are not purposly cut down, stop your baseless fanon, yes there is civilians causalities as is with ANY WAR, but they were not told, nor did they intentionally go around stealing, and murdering from innocents (Btw do you have proof of the stealing part? i played both sides and NEVER saw them stealing... I did see innocent die as they got caught up in the chaos though)

she does not wish to work with the horde, she leaves to go defend the rest of azeroth, not wanting to be anywhere near the horde.
I think Aeula you forget how lore works, we dont see all of it, the broken shore and isles were not the only place where demons were.
The pre-event bassicly happened all the way up to Argus died, also the alliance and the horde did shit all on the broken isles, broken shore, and stormheim with the ending of suramar, the rest was all the kirin tor and the order halls+ the natives of the broken shore.

UHHHH WHAT? NOT EVEN GENN IS THAT PISSED AT THE HORDE He is MUCH MORE pissed at the horde, just he deals with it in a differant way, he is willing to be near them, but he is much more willing to slit their throats when he can.

mary sue in BFA? uhh what? She trained with the best of the best, antonidas, aegwyn, kalethas.
also thalyssra and the nightborne were very limited, you also seem to think because they have lived longer they are defautly much better at everything, well the nightborne were very limited, remember that yes thalyrssa is a 10,000 year old woman, but how much ACTUAL combat do you think she saw within those walls for all 10,000 years... yeah, little to fucking none. so you sorta get rusty wouldent you think? I mean yeah she was starving, but she even had trouble with some mindless fucking withered. and even now had trouble against some unarmed worgen.
The thunder kings power was the power of a titan keeper you know that right? also power does not matter the type, just because he was a lightning dude does not mean her taking his power does literally nothing to her...

Again it would be better if you gave me alot of actual reasons other then simply hsitting on her over and over for things simply explainable.