I really hate Jaina...

[ButterBeast]

I already like Jaina, since Theramore she has become one of my favourite Characters.

I mean it could be worse, the Alliance could be stuck with a piece of shit like Sylvanas.

I'm truly hoping there is a showdown between the 2 and Jaina vaporizes that useless piece of undead banshee shit.

you're getting a little riled up over a fictional character.

[Kiri]

Would you look at that, more events that happened after Jaina aided the Night Elves, breaking neutrality of Dalaran.

The neutrality of Dalaran hardly ever extended to each individual member, only the city, organization and what members did as official representatives. Securing and studying magical artifacts has always happened in cooperation with the faction that currently possessed them, instead of attacking everyone trying to take possession of them. Members of the Council of Six aided both the Horde and Alliance with Mogu artifacts, but for some reason, Jaina securing a dangerous weapon is seen as a breach of neutrality, while Aethas doing the same is just business as usual. If someone had attacked Silvermoon trying to take the box, Aethas would have assisted in the defense as well, not just stand around there saying 'sorry pal, I am neutral'.

[Mehrunes]

and yeah we could also go into the fact horde has suddenly started collecting WMD without even talking to the alliance first, and well with the legion defeated what reason would they have to collect such a thing other then use it on the alliance?

Azerite isn't a WMD. The Horde isn't obligated to ask Alliance's permission for everything they do. And there are still Old Gods and other threats out there other than Alliance.

correct, the kirin tor planned to get them all out SAFELY but sadly when people start retaliating and a civial war breaks out, innocents will get stuck in the middle.
the alliance intended for them to peacefully move them all out
the horde decided to fight back, starting a war, costing lives.

Given how Jaina had no authority to initiate the Purge, yeah, putting the blame on the Horde is totes legit.

It doesn’t matter how horde players perceive it, tho. Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six not by an absolutist monarch. She was just representing the head of the council, it doesn’t imply that she has more to say than any of the other council members (as seen by the vote before legion)

So if she had broken Dalaran’s laws (or neutrality) by her actions in Darnassus or even in Dalaran, she would’ve been arrested or at least face other consequences. However she was still head of council until Legion until she decided herself to leave the Kirin Tor.

Furthermore: Vargoth and Modera were present along Jaina in the Kirin Tor offensive on the Isle of Thunder (5.2) and Ansirem voted no in Legion, so we know 4 / 6 council members apparently didn’t have a problem with her decision and yes: Aethas’ actions were seen as betrayal by the council portrayed in the Felo’melorn quest.

I like it how you make an argument about Dalaran not being an absolute monarchy to absolve Jaina of guilt in an action she did all on her own without even consulting any other Council member. Top notch level of coherent thought.

Because her not being arrested isn't proof that other Council members agreed with her. Since, again, they weren't present. And Jaina started the Purge immediately after she got back from Darnassus. Where she most certainly did break neutrality, because aiding one belligerent (Darnassus/Alliance) against another (Horde) is breaking neutrality. That's simply how neutrality works so you can deal with it instead of bending over backwards in an effort to handwave it away.

Speaking of that, Dalaran did break neutrality in Theramore before that. Jaina herself made an observation it would be a breach of their neutrality when she was suggested to ask them for help. Look at all dem arrests or at least other consequences Rhonin faced afterwards. That totally supports your narrative.

But back to the Council. Jaina broke neutrality, issued a Purge without consent of the Council and summoned help from the Alliance. She turned Dalaran into an enemy of the Horde. At that point it was too late to do anything and Jaina presented the Council with a done situation. To which they had to adapt. Hell, even if some did believe her actions to be wrong, her not facing any consequences can very well be indicator of no consensus being reached in that direction. After all the likes of Karlain were leaning towards the Alliance.

she did get over it in warcrimes
but i guess you forgot what happened in ashran?
the alliance was searching for an artifact to use against the iron horde, and the horde decides to attack them and try to get it first.

I really like how you justify Alliance acting paranoid in Silithus to the point it's all Horde's fault, but when the Horde does the same (shortly after the faction war started by the Alliance has ended) it's also the Horde's fault. #AllianceConsistency

also the horde "betrayed the alliance" at the broken shore, killing one of her final best friends. and the last person she knew from childhood, that knew her and was close to her with arthas

Apparently random Felguards and Gul'dan are members of the New Horde. Who knew! And calling a retreat, of which the Alliance was informed via horn signal (and Wolfheart shows the Alliance knows Horde's horn signals) still continues to not constitute a betrayal, two years later.

I love that people can actually try and use this as justification.

We have 3 countries, lets pull them out of a hat. America, China and Australia. China and America are at war with eachother and Australia is the neutral, Australia houses embassies and bases for both China and America. China discovers a superweapon and goes to Australia to request help in securing it away so it cannot be used. Australia complies.

America discovers that China now houses a super weapon and wants it for themselves so they can use it against China. They then proceed to go through Australia and infiltrate China using Australian resources and trade routes without even asking Australia for permission, even going so far as to bully Australian people into keeping quiet. Australia gets angry and exiles America from Australian soil and Americans call foul.

Is Australia some great villain for exiling sneaky greedy americans who went behind their back instead of asking permission?

Is Australia now outright evil for exiling and banning Americans from entering Australia?

Your analogy would fall apart like a pile of shit the moment Australia commits hostile actions against America's soldiers trying to enter China. Wait, that's exactly what Jaina did in Darnassus. So your analogy does fall apart like a pile of shit. Because it IS a pile of shit and your comprehension of neutrality is of that value as well.

Also, the Horde did not go to Darnassus through Dalaran. You get there from Krasarang. You only escape through Dalaran. Long after Jaina used magical traps against the Horde's diversion force.

The neutrality of Dalaran hardly ever extended to each individual member, only the city, organization and what members did as official representatives. Securing and studying magical artifacts has always happened in cooperation with the faction that currently possessed them, instead of attacking everyone trying to take possession of them. Members of the Council of Six aided both the Horde and Alliance with Mogu artifacts, but for some reason, Jaina securing a dangerous weapon is seen as a breach of neutrality, while Aethas doing the same is just business as usual. If someone had attacked Silvermoon trying to take the box, Aethas would have assisted in the defense as well, not just stand around there saying 'sorry pal, I am neutral'.

Aethas did not use magical traps against Alliance forces in the region, did he now? Jaina did in Darnassus what Kirin Tor did in Theramore months before. Jaina herself admitted Kirin Tor would break their neutrality by helping her. And yay, a hypothetical. Completely relevant to actual events.

[FelPlague]

The neutrality of Dalaran hardly ever extended to each individual member, only the city, organization and what members did as official representatives. Securing and studying magical artifacts has always happened in cooperation with the faction that currently possessed them, instead of attacking everyone trying to take possession of them. Members of the Council of Six aided both the Horde and Alliance with Mogu artifacts, but for some reason, Jaina securing a dangerous weapon is seen as a breach of neutrality, while Aethas doing the same is just business as usual. If someone had attacked Silvermoon trying to take the box, Aethas would have assisted in the defense as well, not just stand around there saying 'sorry pal, I am neutral'.

dont argue with mehrunes, i have em blocked cause they are the kinda person to think alliance is the aggressors in BFA, and seems to want a game without alliance members.

[Friendlyimmolation]

dont argue with mehrunes, i have em blocked cause they are the kinda person to think alliance is the aggressors in BFA, and seems to want a game without alliance members.

Dismissing someone with an ignore doesn't make your argument stronger.

[sam86]

she didnt purge blood elves, and yesl iterally everyone batted an eye, did you even play alliance side where varian cussed her out?
btw wtf are you even talking about here and there?
the council fucked over vancleef because of a black dragon, varian had nothing to do with it, nor did his wife, or the population of stormwind. A black dragon convinced the council not to pay. what the fuck are you even talking about king chin and what? see using shitty nicknames for everything doesent help your point cause we dont know who or what the fuck your talking about.

1) the event is called officially by blizzard "The Purge of Dalaran" https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran, so u want to tell me that the official event called Purge of Dalaran, didn't have Purge ? was it name Purge because they gave them candy crash ? Or u going to mention that Jaina used to kill players and was hotfixed to just prison them? because that is literally unrelated since u - player - wasn't one of the Sunreavers in first place
2) Varian cursed she ruined the negotiation with blood elves, not the mass slaughter itself, since as shown humans like to genocide against weaker races, like blood elves (wc3) and trolls (literally their foundation) and Goblins of Kezan (cataclysm)
3) the final decision was by Varian and when he declared that the payment of the stonemasons was going to be delayed (they did try to bribe VanCleef since he was a noble, but he sided with the ppl against corrupted regime), influenced by Onyxia no doubt, but still his decision, at that moment the riot started that ended with his wife death, so Varian 'grief' made him ignore the end of world literally, and go hunt blackrock orcs
4) let's not forget that Thrall was rushing to save the world pillar, and a 'high authority in alliance' (Varian) tried to kidnap him that - if succeeded - would ended the world, but who cares as long king chin attack an Orc (who was trying to save both alliance and horde.. and rest of world)
5) I think alliance started to call him king chin, not me who invented it, also that name did drop after Varian 180 shift to a better person, i still like to use it because he does share a chin with deathwing for the lols
6) i was talking about why would jaina not fit with alliance, they are hypocrisy walking on 2 legs, for example they tried to burn alive the weaker undead (forsaken) for dare to die by hand of lich king and getting risen against their own will, yet they welcomed with open arms the stronger undead DKs because they are strong (and msg from Tirion who - while consider himself alliance - alliance denounced him since ages), alliance don't even see forsaken has the right to exist in first place, a racism that only exist in alliance

[FelPlague]

Dismissing someone with an ignore doesn't make your argument stronger.

i would normally read his stuff, but im sick and tired so i dont feel like "veiwing mehrunes most likely nonesense how the alliance are evil heatens who want to see the burning legion destroy all life" today.

[Mehrunes]

thanks just noticed this reading through now!
She did not agress, the alliance did, Yes theramore was her city, but it had nothing to do with dalaran, so what happened in theramore has no connection at all to dalaran, so saying "Cause the alliance uses an alliance city, the horde is fine to use a neutral city" is a bad argument.
A single member? it was much more then a single member, and she does not know it was a single member (if it was, which it obviously wasent) Aethis knew about it and let it happen, and it required infiltrating darn, aswell as moving a large ass bell, and opening portals it was not "one elf"

And yet Alliance prosecutor at Garrosh' trial talked about a single agent.

ok Aeula allmost right away you quickly break everything and start filling it with your fan cannon, why i asked you to explain what you dont like about her, not "what i dont like about the story i made up" she did not order the alliance to kill every single blood elf, she ordered them to be sent to silvermoon, and if they retaliated to be put in the violet hold or killed.

And no she does not "imprison the rest" she teleports those who she finds to silvermoon, well those who retaliate are fought back against or imprisoned.
Innocents are not purposly cut down, stop your baseless fanon, yes there is civilians causalities as is with ANY WAR, but they were not told, nor did they intentionally go around stealing, and murdering from innocents (Btw do you have proof of the stealing part? i played both sides and NEVER saw them stealing... I did see innocent die as they got caught up in the chaos though)

Not sure if it's funny or sad at this point.

she does not wish to work with the horde, she leaves to go defend the rest of azeroth, not wanting to be anywhere near the horde.
I think Aeula you forget how lore works, we dont see all of it, the broken shore and isles were not the only place where demons were.
The pre-event bassicly happened all the way up to Argus died, also the alliance and the horde did shit all on the broken isles, broken shore, and stormheim with the ending of suramar, the rest was all the kirin tor and the order halls+ the natives of the broken shore.

*Accuses @Aeula of fanon* "Welp, Jaina totally did stuff in Legion, we just didn't see her doing it."

mary sue in BFA? uhh what? She trained with the best of the best, antonidas, aegwyn, kalethas.

And yet her attack with all of her might didn't do anything to Thalen. Yet now she's a Mage god.


The thunder kings power was the power of a titan keeper you know that right? also power does not matter the type, just because he was a lightning dude does not mean her taking his power does literally nothing to her...[/QUOTE]

But she didn't take his power. She drained his throne room incorrectly thinking it's his source of power. She was wrong. You'd have a point if she drained his body. She did not. She drained jack shit.

then with legion she helps fight with the horde on the broken shore, and the horde ditches the alliance, giving them no warning before they fuck off, and so jaina blames the horde for varians death and the battle being lost, and decides to fuck off to help the rest of azeroth defend against the legion, not wanting to be near the horde in dalaran on the broken shore.

Horn signal. No warning. Pick one. Preferably not the fanfiction one.

The exact number of Sunreavers aware of the plot to steal the Divine Bell is unclear, sources varying from a single Sunreaver (mentioned in War Crimes) to a small handful of "certain" agents chosen by Garrosh. The game depicts it as somewhere in-between; players take a single Sunreaver's portal in and out of Darnassus, and four or five mages in Sunreaver tabards can be seen upholding the small cloaking barrier on the city's outskirts.

Except the guy that teleports you in isn't a Sunreaver. He was from Reliquary and wore Sunreaver tabard for misdirection.

Nah, i like to lurk and inconsequentially shitpost.

Fixed it for you.

I know better than to get into an argument with people who are so dead set in their twisted headcanon that Metzen straight up telling them they are wrong would do nothing to sway their opinions.

Examples or GTFO. Because unlike you, I can actually provide an example of people screeching TEH CIRCLEJERK like petulant children arguing against Word of God, like them continuing to claim that Forsaken mind control new undead.

I have nothing to argue, and you only make yourself look like a fool if you sit there expecting one.

Now i shall return to lurking, and of course laughing at the futile circle jerkers flailing about as their beloved Sylvanas is escorted to the headsmans raid block.

Have a fun time as your headcanon crumbles around you!

Yes, he's the one making himself look like a fool here

[FelPlague]

1) the event is called officially by blizzard "The Purge of Dalaran" https://wow.gamepedia.com/Purge_of_Dalaran, so u want to tell me that the official event called Purge of Dalaran, didn't have Purge ? was it name Purge because they gave them candy crash ? Or u going to mention that Jaina used to kill players and was hotfixed to just prison them? because that is literally unrelated since u - player - wasn't one of the Sunreavers in first place
2) Varian cursed she ruined the negotiation with blood elves, not the mass slaughter itself, since as shown humans like to genocide against weaker races, like blood elves (wc3) and trolls (literally their foundation)
3) the final decision was by Varian and when he declared that the payment of the stonemasons was going to be delayed (they did try to bribe VanCleef since he was a noble, but he sided with the ppl against corrupted regime), influenced by Onyxia no doubt, but still his decision, at that moment the riot started that ended with his wife death, so Varian 'grief' made him ignore the end of world literally, and go hunt blackrock orcs
4) I think alliance started to call him king chin, not me who invented it, also that name did drop after Varian 180 shift to a better person, i still like to use it because he does share a chin with deathwing for the lols
5) i was talking about why would jaina not fit with alliance, they are hypocrisy walking on 2 legs, for example they tried to burn alive (undeath?) the weaker undead (forsaken) for dare to die by hand of lich king and getting risen against their own will, yet they welcomed with open arms the stronger undead DKs because they are strong (and msg from Tirion who - while consider himself alliance - alliance denounced him since ages)

1. you do know what purging means right? its not mass genocide its
an abrupt or violent removal of a group of people from an organization or place.
straight fromthe dictionary. so yeah you can have a purge without killing anyone.
2.she only killed those who drew arms on her, she never once kills someone who is innocent.
3. uh no can you show evidance for this? because varian WANTED them to pay the stone masons butthey refused,
4. uhhh what? no he doesent... not even close..
5. again you dont make sense here, they welcome the dks because they were able to once again control themselves, and wished to join the alliance, free of any control, and proved so at lights hope chapel, where random forsaken have not proven themselves.

[Kiri]

Aethas did not use magical traps against Alliance forces in the region, did he now? Jaina did in Darnassus what Kirin Tor did in Theramore months before. Jaina herself admitted Kirin Tor would break their neutrality by helping her. And yay, a hypothetical. Completely relevant to actual events.

The thing is, you are implicitly using that hypothetical yourself. Both mages were asked by faction leaders to assist in securing and studying an artifact. You saying that Jaina broke neutrality here implies that she did something different from what Aethas would have done. Otherwise your argument simply boils down to 'whichever mage happens to study and secure an artifact that is actually being attempted to steal breaks neutrality', which is kind of pointless.
I just fail to see how 'help Garrosh harness a powerful artifact' is more neutral than 'keep Garrosh from harnessing a powerful artifact by stopping its theft'.

[Doffen]

Didn't do the purge myself(who the fuck played MoP anyway) but didn't the horde-players go with some Sunreavers to steal the artifact to begin with? Is that Jaina's fault? Feel free to explain. I've heard reading wowpedia is a shame, so I can't take that for good(the whole thing is in the game right?)

[Mehrunes]

If the police came and told me i had to leave and i said no, and they said too bad you are going, and i pulled a knife out and i got shot, i would not then blame the police.

Or, for this analogy to actually be valid, a bunch of rabid gang members that hate your people and foreign soldiers rather than the police. In which case, they have no authority to tell you to do anything.

I do believe this is actually wrong. The Silver Covenant has always been a militant police faction within the Kirin Tor, their very formation was to deter any potential horde uprisings within Dalaran.

Do give a source of them being that rather than just Vereesa's militia then, ye master of lore.


[QUOTE=Rosalynda;48862288]A faction created to police another faction is still a form of police. If i recall the Sunreavers were only allowed into Dalaran during WotLK provided the Silver Covenant was formed and permitted to police them. Their very existence is quite literally "to police the sunreavers".

Unless they are given such authority by the local rulers, they are just a paramilitary group with no power. And there was nothing in Blood Elven admission that put a condition of a police force being created to watch over them. Hell, the very introduction material on WoW's web page said that Vereesa formed the Silver Covenant in reaction to Blood Elves' admission, not as a condition for it. *cough* and you speak of headcanon *cough*

To use your example, it's as if the person standing there going "You see us standing here? yeah let's see you try some dumb shit" is a police officer guarding a street corner. But as you say, none of that matters in the face of Jaina giving them permission to do their thing. Even if some of them went beyond simple police work and straight into crazy vigilante territory.

Jaina has no authority to single-handedly do anything in Dalaran. Dalaran isn't an absolute monarchy, it's ruled by consensus of the Council. The leader of the Council doesn't even have a tie-breaking vote.

I don't try to portray Jaina like some innocent flower and act like her white knight like people try to do for Sylvanas and make her sound like a innocent little snowflake who wouldn't hurt a fly unless justified...like many people on this forum.

The straw-men you constructed whispering into your ear are still not representative of the Sylvanas fans on this forum. Sorry to disappoint.

I didn't realize a guard drawing their weapons was enough reason to kill them. That pretty much justifies everything right?

Well, only if they are Horde. Alliance soldiers would be justified and killing them would be an atrocity. Vide @FelPlague's "consistent" portrayal of Silithus vs Ashran.

[Goldielocks]

dont argue with mehrunes, i have em blocked cause they are the kinda person to think alliance is the aggressors in BFA, and seems to want a game without alliance members.

Im reading his points and hey make a lot more sense than yours honestly.

[Mehrunes]

This is entirely irrelevant... She gives them a choice, after they are resurrected... At that point they are already damned to that oblivion of nothingness after they go back to their dirt nap. She is, unquestionably, far worse.

How do you ask a corpse? And the idea that resurrection damns your soul into anything is fanfiction.

look up fenris isle btw, a zone of undead haters who you go, kill, andthen instantly after being rezzed 90% of them are" praise sylvanas, for the forsaken" that is VERY, VERY fishy....
this was during cata when it seemed sylvanas was going to pull a garrosh. but he fanbase most likely convinced blizz tochange that.

What happened you your narrative of gameplay improperly reflecting the lore? Ah, it only applies when it's convenient for the Alliance, got it. And either way, even if the CDev reply was accidentally written because the CDev's cat ran across the keyboard, it's still Word of God. So deal with it.

[FelPlague]

Im reading his points and hey make a lot more sense than yours honestly.

examples?
i know from qoutes and abit of a scanning i did it seems he thinks the alliance attacks first in BFA
they dont, the horde does
he also seems to think azerite is not a WMD
but it is, and is compared to VERY STRONG EXPLOSIVES and has immennse power, enough a small shard in anduins hand was enough to make him freak out, even more then his fathers legendary sword.
he seems to think stopping a blood thirsty warcheif from capturing a very dangerous artifact is much more evil then helping a bloodthristy warcheif get a very dangerous artifact.
he also says that garrosh did not have the intent to take over azeroth, so i dont know, aparently to him garrosh just wanted to make an army to beat the legion i guess?

[ello]

Let's not bring real-world politics into this debate - either our rules (which aren't applicable to the fantasy world of Azeroth) or matching precedents (also inapplicable, given the lack of governing rules). This will just cause a swift derailment of an already troubled thread.

I'm in full agreement that our rules don't apply to a fantasy setting. I only brought it up because I wanted to make the point that even in the best case scenario, the Blood Elves would understandably consider Jaina's actions villainous.

[Thougar]

Didn't do the purge myself(who the fuck played MoP anyway) but didn't the horde-players go with some Sunreavers to steal the artifact to begin with? Is that Jaina's fault? Feel free to explain. I've heard reading wowpedia is a shame, so I can't take that for good(the whole thing is in the game right?)

People who enjoyed a really good expansion did.
And yeah, the horde player did go and assist in stealing the divine bell from Darnassus.

[Mehrunes]

Jaina didn't have the authority though, she wasn't a "Cop." Being the head of the council meant you could call a vote doesn't mean you are the king of Dalaran.

Well, no, being the leader of the Council didn't even mean that. I mean, it does, but because they are on the Council in general, not because they are the leader,. Every member could call a vote. The leader doesn't even have a tie-breaker vote. The leader of the Council only represents Dalaran in foreign relations.

And what happened in 5.1 was literally far less than what the Horde deserved or asked for. Jaina ordered them to leave, their leadership refused, then for disobeying, she imprioned them, with a few messy casualties due to refusal to comply (far less innocent ones than the piles of dead bodies coming from the Horde aggression). Horde have done nothing but mass murder every Alliance they came in contact with and Alliance did almost nothing (thank the writers for that massive level of tolerance), but the moment someone decides to kick the Horde out of Dalaran, oh no, then it's a problem? Or is it because Theron was calling Alliance bigots while standing right near the Divine Bell, which was smuggled through Dalaran, which was the very reason Jaina got tired of the Horde crap, which was going to be used against the Alliance the same way the Focusing Iris was used?

And yet she had no authority to even ask them to leave in the first place. And what Horde aggression? In Darnassus? No one died there. In the war in general? Sorry, but Varian was the one to declare the war in WotLK. And before the Bell was smuggled through Dalaran Jaina already broke Dalaran's neutrality by aiding Darnassus in a military operation against the Horde. So whoopty doo for Jaina's moral high ground here.

You hate Jaina because just another biased little Horde who believes in all the relativistic talk in the Horde side of the narrative or because you have short memory issues. This mindset that somehow the Horde can be aggressive as much as they want but someone who've done so much to keep peace but then betrayed so many times you could write whole books about has to still remain submissive and tolerant is just stupid. I really hope none of you ever get a hold of a position of power in real life because, oh boy, there's going to be a load of innocent blood on the other side.

Jaina has never been betrayed by the Horde and she actively participated in the previous war. Hell, her troops are the ones who broke post-WotLK truce, restarting the faction war. That the Alliance started. Just like they started most of WoW's conflicts.

[Schattenlied]

And the idea that resurrection damns your soul into anything is fanfiction.

Except for... well... we know it's been done to Sylvanas, she discovered that when she jumped off icecrown, that is the whole reason she wants to live forever, she doesn't want to go back there.

[Mehrunes]

Posts like this is why I'm happy that in the BFA intro scenarios, the Horde got something cool and the Alliance got shit in comparison.

Wait, are you saying HORDE BIAS is real? :O

they did not elect themselves, they were hired by the owners of dalaran... like how the goverment hires officers and police to defend their cities...
and also they drew weapons on jaina herself..

Do give any source whatsoever for Silver Covenant being hired by the Kirin Tor for their role. Because their introduction said squat about it. Instead it talked about Vereesa forming it as a reaction to Blood Elves being allowed into Dalaran.

except they were hired.

Something something fan canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDQVUS5svO0
5:59, jaina working with the silver covenant. she right out works with them, at no point telling the silver covenantn to "stop, they haveno authoirty"
not to mention they are listed at the military of kirin tor

Look at all them proofs of them being hired there. Also, given how you're arguing against a point that Jaina abused her powers by using Vereesa's private militia instead of the Kirin Tor, what sort of counterargument is saying she didn't tell them they have no authority supposed to be?