Hardcore casuals ruined leveling

[Akachan]

Really? I have to explain to you what I mean by "faster" within the CONTEXT of this thread, again?! When I said faster, it means faster than what is currently POSSIBLE right now with the LFG tool. Because right now, the system is broken. Why is it broken? Because the payoff isnt' commensurate with the risks. I really don't want to have to explain, yet again, why dungeons are a losing gamble to someone who refuses to listen and has no arguments other then "just get better at it," or "git gud." As a matter of fact, don't quote me again, don't refer to my posts, don't engage me if you're just going to be this stupid. I'm done with you.

[Christan]

I think they made it a bit too slow, I'd say extra 35% XP or so would make it just right, or even better 1-60 +30% XP, 60-80 +40% and 80-100 +20% XP rate increase.

I guess youre excited about the rumored hierloom gloves boots and belt and wrists
(just fyi, i am currently starting this rumor)
Exp will be 5% on each, but exp is added onto trinkets also through an upgrade

[SirCowdog]

Really? I have to explain to you what I mean by "faster" within the CONTEXT of this thread, again?! When I said faster, it means faster than what is currently POSSIBLE right now with the LFG tool. Because right now, the system is broken. Why is it broken? Because the payoff isnt' commensurate with the risks. I really don't want to have to explain, yet again, why dungeons are a losing gamble to someone who refuses to listen and has no arguments other then "just get better at it," or "git gud." As a matter of fact, don't quote me again, don't refer to my posts, don't engage me if you're just going to be this stupid. I'm done with you.

Every time you reply like this you just prove my point. You group with randoms, of course it's going to be slower! And what I said was completely true: If you want to get leveled up faster, adjust your tactics, skills, and expectations to the new rules. Other people are starting to do it and are getting reasonably fast times to reach cap. The only thing unreasonable right now is your expectations of speeds similar to the broken system before 7.3.5.

You have options, you just refuse to accept them:

Solo Quest and rely upon your own skills and knowledge to speed things up.
LFD with randoms and get random results; probably resulting in slower exp gains.
LFD with a pre-made team of people you know are competent; probably resulting in faster exp gains.
Buy a boost.

You want to group with randoms in LFD and level up faster than someone leveraging every single advantage of relying only on themselves and their own knowledge and twinked gear. It's not going to happen unless you get unbelievably lucky. And when someone like me points that out, rather than accept it, you get angry and call them stupid.

The problem isn't with me. It's not with the game. It's 100% solely with you.

P.S.: There's an ignore function for a reason. Use it if you just want to continue sticking your head in the sand.

[Akachan]

I called you stupid because you have shown throughout this thread that you are. You've falsely assumed about an aspect of the game that you know very little about, and when I point the facts out to you, you change your stance into a different position. First it was:

1. " Dungeon spam still work. In fact, as long as you have someone to power level you, it's actually STILL the fastest method! And even if you don't, it's only very slightly slower than perfect, optimal questing. On the average, it's going to be virtually the same speed as questing. "

When I tore that foolish and ignorant statement apart, you came back with :

2. " Running dungeons is still just as fast. However, you need a group of good players who understand proper speed runs and how to avoid unnecessary pulls and wipes."

When I blew that out of the water, you came back with:

3. "If you want to be faster, then get better at leveling"

At this point, you have no argument. You're just arguing for the sake of it, and this is the funny part: you still fail to UNDERSTAND my position in the first place. I wasn't advocating for a FASTER method than zone questing. I was asking why is zone questing a SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER route than dungeon crawling using the LFD? So significant, in fact, that it threatens to undermine the relevancy of the LFD system. It boils down to the simple concept of risk and reward. If you are going to risk going into a dungeon, the reward had better be worth it. Can we at least agree on that? And right now, the reward simply isn't commensurate with the risk. Tell me, what are the risks a quest grinder takes on when he grinds out quests in a zone (besides the possible ganking on a pvp server) compared to a dungeon crawler with strangers? Is he risking having his time wasted with a tank or a healer leaving? Is he risking having his group disband because of wipes on bosses? No, the quest grinder TAKES ON NO RISKS AND HAS ABSOLUTE CONTROL over the outcome of the grind. Like you said, the solo quester can "leverage every single advantage of relying only on themselves and their own knowledge and twinked gear." Can a dungeon crawler do the same? Possibly, but can he assume the same about the other 4 people in the group? Of course not. Therefore every time he steps foot into a dungeon, he is taking on risk. Consequently, if the payoff isn't there, then WHY bother in the first place. He could just stay in STV and grind out tigers and panthers all night. Furthermore, as more and more people realize that it's just plain FASTER and EASIER to grind out quests, what do you think will happen to the queue times? It's going to increase, right? Now, doesn't that make QUEST GRINDING the de facto way to gain levels? Doesn't the new system REWARD people for questing and PUNISHES them for dungeon crawling? Do you understand now why I say the system is broken? It's broken because it favors one group (zone questers) over another group (lfd dungeon crawlers), when it didn't before. Before you could quest, gain a level, then to break up the monotony, queue for a dungeon. And when you're done, if your group was successful, you usually gained a level and a bit more. It was a healthy system in which one could zone quest exclusively or dungeon crawl exclusively, with both methods earning experience at similar rates. The fact that you can't now is what I mean by a broken system. My argument has nothing to do with zone scaling and nothing to do with "I WANT TO LEVEL FASTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE, WHY CANT I?" I was pointing out a flaw in the system which people like you and others like you do not see or simply ignore. To use your own words, you're "sticking your head in the sand."

The fact that other people understood this concept without me explaining it in detail for you is further evidence that you are stupid. I rest my case.

[ldev]

Its the best part of the game. People like you are to lousy to ever reach a max level without blizzard making it extremely fast and easy. You dont deserve your 110 is what im saying

Long ass level after long ass level and you get ZERO IMPROVEMENTS for you character, leveling is absolutely the worst.

If we'd get anything every level, progression would be something. Right now it's just exp bar filling and nothing else. Your power doesn't grow - same enemy has same power level level after level. Stats do not improve. No new skills. Nothing.

This is the worst RPG in fucking ages.

[Nussa]

Long ass level after long ass level and you get ZERO IMPROVEMENTS for you character, leveling is absolutely the worst.

If we'd get anything every level, progression would be something. Right now it's just exp bar filling and nothing else. Your power doesn't grow - same enemy has same power level level after level. Stats do not improve. No new skills. Nothing.

This is the worst RPG in fucking ages.

That's true actually.

A time sink that was already a simple chore of selling your time into now just increased in cost with little benefit.

I finished my 2nd 110 after the 7.3.5 patch and the /played was ~3 days and some extra hours.

This was with constant questing and basically running most dungeons once and a few of them twice or thrice, never really 4 times(as I was bored).
I simply left the most dungeons I've left in ages, because leveling being so slow, put me into the same horrid runs again and again that I left. Faster to quest basically, the 30 min. wait time is basically worth the waiting(You can progress out of the shitty bracket within it)

EDIT: PS. I think Legion was actually the fastest leveling. It took me around 1 evening and half the next day. 8 hours? Less even. The longest grind feels to be Wrath and WoD brackets.

[Eleccybubb]

That's true actually.

A time sink that was already a simple chore of selling your time into now just increased in cost with little benefit.

I finished my 2nd 110 after the 7.3.5 patch and the /played was ~3 days and some extra hours.

This was with constant questing and basically running most dungeons once and a few of them twice or thrice, never really 4 times(as I was bored).
I simply left the most dungeons I've left in ages, because leveling being so slow, put me into the same horrid runs again and again that I left. Faster to quest basically, the 30 min. wait time is basically worth the waiting(You can progress out of the shitty bracket within it)

Oh no 3 whole days!

Sorry but 3 days to hit 110 is NOT slow. You can spin this however you choose that is not slow. 30 days is slow.

I swear people's definition of what slow leveling is has changed over time. I remember people used to call a month or two slow but 3 days?! In what universe is 3 days to level in an RPG considered slow? Please someone tell me for my own curiosity.

- - - Updated - - -

Long ass level after long ass level and you get ZERO IMPROVEMENTS for you character, leveling is absolutely the worst.

If we'd get anything every level, progression would be something. Right now it's just exp bar filling and nothing else. Your power doesn't grow - same enemy has same power level level after level. Stats do not improve. No new skills. Nothing.

This is the worst RPG in fucking ages.

And I agree. Stats do improve but not a worthy rate.

The issue is all they did was increase the mobs HP without adding any real challenge to said mob outside of some elite ones.

But as I said above 3 days as someone posted is not slow by any means.

[Nussa]

Lol, blowing it out of proportion as always.

Yeah you're right, vanilla was slower.

But comparing it to before, this IS slower.

[Eleccybubb]

Lol, blowing it out of proportion as always.

Yeah you're right, vanilla was slower.

But comparing it to before, this IS slower.

Yes it is slower.

But to say leveling is now innately slow when it takes 3 days is incorrect. 3 days is quick for an RPG. 15 or 30 days would be slow.

It is SLOWER than it used to be but it's most certainly not slow by any leveling standards compared to a lot of other games.

If anything the ones blowing it out of proportion are those screaming that it's as slow as Korean MMO (not you). This leveling is nowhere near any Korean/Asian MMO.

[clevin]

Oh no 3 whole days!

Sorry but 3 days to hit 110 is NOT slow. You can spin this however you choose that is not slow. 30 days is slow.

I swear people's definition of what slow leveling is has changed over time. I remember people used to call a month or two slow but 3 days?! In what universe is 3 days to level in an RPG considered slow? Please someone tell me for my own curiosity.

Yeah, these people would never survive Classic. 15 days /played. 24 to 70 for a new person (and admittedly I screwed around a lot). In TBC and LK I would plan on about half a level per night (couple of hours each night).

Now... I get that what's fine the first time through is less fine the second and annoying the 12th... but at some point leveling you Nth alt becomes your burden, not the game's. I actually think that when leveling and gearing alts became so easy in Wrath, that it hurt the game as people expected to be able to easily have an army of alts all viable for endgame stuff. Mind you having 2 or 3? Yeah, that's reasonable. Expecting to have 10+? That's mental.

[Eleccybubb]

Yeah, these people would never survive Classic. 15 days /played. 24 to 70 for a new person (and admittedly I screwed around a lot). In TBC and LK I would plan on about half a level per night (couple of hours each night).

Now... I get that what's fine the first time through is less fine the second and annoying the 12th... but at some point leveling you Nth alt becomes your burden, not the game's. I actually think that when leveling and gearing alts became so easy in Wrath, that it hurt the game as people expected to be able to easily have an army of alts all viable for endgame stuff. Mind you having 2 or 3? Yeah, that's reasonable. Expecting to have 10+? That's mental.

Oh yeah I agree after a while it does get a bit boring. I'll agree leveling is slower but it's not innately slow by any means still. And people comparing it to a Korean MMO grind clearly never touched any of those games.

Also try FF11 mate. If you had no clue what you were doing when it was current as I said it could take you 30-60 days to cap one job.

Runescape back then was quite a bit of a grind if I recall. I only know this from word of mouth however.

[clevin]

Oh yeah I agree after a while it does get a bit boring. I'll agree leveling is slower but it's not innately slow by any means still. And people comparing it to a Korean MMO grind clearly never touched any of those games.

Also try FF11 mate. If you had no clue what you were doing when it was current as I said it could take you 30-60 days to cap one job.

Runescape back then was quite a bit of a grind if I recall. I only know this from word of mouth however.

Yeah, I don't have the time for that kind of leveling anymore. Or at least I don't if it's not involving.

People forget that quests in vanilla weren't grouped as nicely meaning that you could run all over the place in a zone, plus mounts weren't available to you until 40 so your character ran everywhere unless it made sense to use FPs. Oh and there was no LFD until mid-LK, so if you wanted a dungeon you needed some people in guild, some friends or you hit up /general or another channel.

3 days /played to max level would have been world first back then

[Nussa]

Played RuneScape back in the day. Never really leveled anything to 99, that was just not worth the time grind in my mind. And yet, I got runecrafting up to 80ish for them gp's. Made me a millionnaire and a lot of people hated that skill.

TBC for me(didn't play vanilla) took my first 70 around 3 months IIRC. Screwed around a lot myself aswell. Don't really remember the time /played. But yeah, back then it took time alright.

I don't think the 2 eras are comparable anymore though, due to the onflux of the new generation that indeed wouldn't likely make it through the grind if it ever were to return(and yeah, not talking about Korean grind MMOs, those are a whole 'nother category)

[SirCowdog]

Further evidence that leveling is getting faster as people get better and better methods. Also, to shut Akachan down once again. This is taken from another thread.

The optimal path seems to be:

20-58

Sequentially quest the zones (as Alliance) Loch Modan, Westfall, Redridge, Darkshore and Bloodmyst Isle - These are all "starter" questing zones with tightly packed together easy quests which have you generally doing very little for quest completion.

At the same time you should exclusively queue for Ragefire Chasm and Stormwind Stockades. These are two of the quickest completed dungeons and the completion xp alone is a solid addition to your leveling. If you are a leveling healer or tanking class this will be a sizable portion of your leveling, and you'll be getting to know these two instances well.

58-73

Do either Northrend or Burning Crusade questing while queuing for both Utgarde Keep, Ramparts and Blood Furnace.

74-81

This is the rocket fuel segment of your leveling. Switch your settings to do heroic dungeons, and go and sequentially solo every single Burning Crusade Heroic Dungeon. They give outstanding xp/gold and you will be one-shotting your way through the dungeons.

81-82

Most of the Heroic Burning Crusade Dungeons will stop giving you xp at this point, so go and do some of the raids. Serpentshire Cavern has level 72 10 mob pulls which you can AoE in seconds and give massive amounts of xp.

83-87

Unfortunately this is back to questing and queuing yourself for dungeons. These levels can seem like a bit of a grind after coming off the rocket fuel of 74-82. At 84-87 you can solo heroic Northrend dunegons, but I'm unconvinced that this is faster xp than questing. It is however a very good moneymaker.

88-90

Heroic Zul'Gurub is your friend. Solo the dungeon in a big circle avoiding all the bosses and killing all mini-bosses. Get back to the start, exit, reset, and do again. 5 circles and resets should be enough xp to go from 88-90.

90-110

Exactly the same as prior to 7.3.5

I hit 90 in 36 hours played using that method with a ranged dps class. If I'd been a tanking or healing class the dungeons would have been popping a lot faster, but dungeons are pretty slow for dps on my server cluster it seems.

I did spend a number of hours exploring mechanics (such as exactly what level I could solo various dungeons etc.) so you could possibly shave another 7-8 hours off that as I wouldn't need to repeat that learning/exploration if I needed to repeat.

There's also another clever method which involved getting engineering a using a toy to port to invasions and leveling that way. Apparently it's also very fast. One more "option" to level instead of just crying about how unfair or slow it is.

I can keep this up, but I think my point is getting across.

[sam86]

Can we start what I am sure is to be an overwhelmingly civil and productive discussion here by defining what a "hardcore casual" is supposed to be in context?

please tell me if u know, i literally clicked here because i want to understand how can u be hardcore, and casual, are u casually hardcoring or hardcore casualling :P ?

[Eleccybubb]

@SirCowdog

Personally I just level where I want to with scaling. But thanks for that I'll show it to some friends.

Like at 40 I went to Feralas and then Blasted Lands at 46 and then back to Winterspring at 49.

Went Northrend for a change at 58 and back to Outland at 70.

I like being able to go where I want for the most part.

[Akachan]

That's great kid. Keep contradicting yourself because you have no argument.

"You don't get special treatment for wanting to level faster than everyone else!"

Then proceeds to post a guide showing exactly how to level up faster than everyone else.


Geee thanks? Lol. At least you're kind of funny and not entirely stupid.

[SirCowdog]

That's great kid. Keep contradicting yourself because you have no argument.

"You don't get special treatment for wanting to level faster than everyone else!"

Then proceeds to post a guide showing exactly how to level up faster than everyone else.


Geee thanks? Lol. At least you're kind of funny and not entirely stupid.

Your primary complaint was that it took too long to level up. I've constantly said that it's not THAT bad, and you've constantly whined about how there should be a special way to level up using dungeons. So when I post a guide on how to quickly level up using dungeons for the most part, which ALSO shows that it doesn't take an exorbitant amount of time, you come back with anger.

At this point you're just being bitter because you've been soundly proven wrong. I think we're done here.

- - - Updated - - -

@SirCowdog

Personally I just level where I want to with scaling. But thanks for that I'll show it to some friends.

Like at 40 I went to Feralas and then Blasted Lands at 46 and then back to Winterspring at 49.

Went Northrend for a change at 58 and back to Outland at 70.

I like being able to go where I want for the most part.

I also think that part of it is pretty cool. I'm on my third character since the change, and because I was experimenting to see which areas were better, each character has taken a different path through the zones. Well....up until WoD anyway, but it's not like anyone really spends a lot of time there anyway. There's a lot of potential for variety to keep questing from getting TOO repetitive, as long as you're willing to sacrifice a little efficiency.

Honestly I think the scaling could do with a few more tweaks, and I still think that breaking apart the zones by 1-60, 60-80, and 80-90 is weird. They REALLY should just scale everything to 90 and let people play where they want.

Oh well. It's still better than the trainwreck it was before.

[ComputerNerd]

I thought the casuals were the people that preferred easy leveling?

It changes in each and every thread to support the argument.
Given the usual definition of casual as "lazy" or "seeking the easiest route", it seems strange to be blaming this on casuals.

A casual is basically defined as whoever they want to prove they are "better" than.

Your primary complaint was that it took too long to level up. I've constantly said that it's not THAT bad, and you've constantly whined about how there should be a special way to level up using dungeons. So when I post a guide on how to quickly level up using dungeons for the most part, which ALSO shows that it doesn't take an exorbitant amount of time, you come back with anger.

At this point you're just being bitter because you've been soundly proven wrong. I think we're done here.

- - - Updated - - -



I also think that part of it is pretty cool. I'm on my third character since the change, and because I was experimenting to see which areas were better, each character has taken a different path through the zones. Well....up until WoD anyway, but it's not like anyone really spends a lot of time there anyway.

Honestly I think the scaling could do with a few more tweaks, and I still think that breaking apart the zones by 1-60, 60-80, and 80-90 is weird. They REALLY should just scale everything to 90 and let people play where they want.

Oh well. It's still better than the trainwreck it was before.

I disagree, and think the level ranges should have been smaller.

Scaling is never going to make for an equal experience at all levels.
Because the difficulty goes though a progression beyond just bigger numbers.
The abilities of mobs, and the content of a zone is aimed at the original level.
A player at 60 has vastly more tools than a player at level 10 and so their experience in the same zone isn't going to be equalised by any number scaling.

[Rotted]

If the forums are to be believed, leveling from 1-110 takes up to 42 hours of /played in 7.3.5. My anecdotal evidence suggest that it takes 28 hours, but that's using optimal leveling paths and popping XP potions all the way from 1-85.

In 42 hours you can also do one or more of the following:

• Participate in 14 standard raid nights (enough to clear heroic and be anywhere from halfway to 2/3 into clearing mythic)
• Bring a freshly dinged level 110 character from 800 ilvl to 930 and beyond
• Achieve 2k+ rating in PvP
• Complete all meta raid achievements
• Push a M+ key enough to appear on the leaderboards
• Watch 20 movies or finish 2 AAA games

As of 7.3.5, leveling is by far the MOST obnoxious grind in this game. You get to slog through 6 expansions' worth of outdated content at a snail's pace just to reach endgame. Getting your new alt raid-ready is a joke in comparison. People seem to misunderstand why leveling was so fast prior to 7.3.5. When you have an endgame-centered MMO, you can't force people to play through ALL of the outdated content. That's just too big of an investment to unlock the endgame.

Making zones scale was a step in the right direction, nuking heirlooms and other XP-enhancing items was 10 steps back. I'm not someone who gets discouraged easily; I wiped 500+ times on mythic Kil'Jaeden before killing him. Slogging through outdated content broke me. Listening to hardcore casuals who have the time to level 24/7 but can't play endgame for x reason is BAD. Making leveling 1-110 take 2x or even 3x longer was a dumb decision.

I'm not exactly sure what the problem is?

if I was a new player and it took me 42 hours to hit max level I'd be happy with what I paid for wow + current expansion. I pay 40+ for some games which I complete with all bonus content in 15 hours or less. With wow I'm getting 3x that and fairly regular content being pushed out for a fraction of what other games DLC cost (I'm talking DLC cost vs sub cost).

Yea leveling can be a cunt for some people depending on personal preference but they'll never please everyone. From the sound of it you detest the new leveling, me I detest all leveling because of how long I've been playing. But with allied races and seeing the stories of each zone properly while getting rewarded for it I'm enjoying it again. This is coming from someone who currently has 37 characters who are max level, levelling projects or twinks.

I agree scaling in zones is the right direction, but I'm leaning towards nerfing looms to be the right choice. Looms are great, my issue with looms is them being physical, equip-able items (I'm talking from before the latest patch btw). New players were and still are frankly getting canned by players in looms. Granted they aren't as powerful but they still dammed good especially if you know the class. I'd much prefer to see looms as a single none equip item in your bags which increases in strength the more content you do / part of. For example instead of guild loom legs you get another 10% exp on this item with additional perks, maybe 5 levels less before you can mount (disabled in pvp).