I really hate Jaina...

[Mehrunes]

by the way stop spreading lies about the alliance starting the war in cataclysm, you have been in many threads of people telling you right out your wrong but you keep pushing it, the twilght hammer started the war after the wotlk.

Hmm, let's see. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance-Horde_war Would you look at that, "King Varian Wrynn proclaimed open war against the Horde following the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate". Further corroborated by The Shattering book, which says that the factions had a truce after WotLK. A truce requires a war to begin with. The book also revolves around peace treaty talks between the faction (that went nowhere). To have a peace treaty you also *gasp* need a war. So I don't think I will. Because you haven't established it to be a lie and because the lore agrees with me. Also, just lol at the claim that a third party started a war between the Horde and the Alliance.

she worked with the silver covenant, and after had them as her personal militia alongside the kirin tor to go to the thunder isles.

What she did or did not do after the Purge of Dalaran has zero relevance to the state of things before the Purge of Dalaran.

also the kirin tor is either not there or stepping back in the matter, something not really explained as they seem absent from dalaran.

Kinda part of the point. Whooosh.

[Zulkhan]

Quite the contrary. The Horde and what they define as Honor is what makes them particularly susceptible to adapt themselves to new ideologies. We've seen it from Garrosh, with warriors like Nazgrim - who were by no mean evil or bad - completely assimilate under the new leadership, but we've also seen neutral parties affiliate themselves out of obligation, like the Tauren after Cairne's loss to Garrosh.

Likewise, it's this very ideology that makes them unite under the banner of Sylvanas. As she was appointed Warchief by Vol'Jin, someone the Horde deemed honorable, they've accepted her new position although very few agreed with her ideologies.

I think you're confusing the actual shift of ideology with the change of leadership. Sure, the Warchief is a dictator and because of that he can push the whole Horde towards a certain direction but there are limits to that. The actual ideology that keeps the Horde together lives on regardless of who's in charge, it's like a tacit and acknowledged understanding of what keeps the Horde united.

Garrosh tried to push forward a completely different ideology and got dethroned as a result. And as you said, the main reason the Horde follows Sylvanas is out of respect for Vol'jin and currently, more than Sylvanas pushing the Horde wherever she wants is Sylvanas trying to deal with the reality of the Horde, to understand how to lead them properly despite the conflicting ideologies (because otherwise she would end just like Garrosh).

Now, regardless of this slightly off-topic discussion, the point though is that Jaina does not really care who's in charge of the Horde. She distrusted Vol'jin's Horde no less than she did Sylvanas' current Horde. In fact Jaina has yet to mention Sylvanas by name, is all about the Horde, its "cruelty and ruthlessness in their pursuit for victory" and so on. It's pretty clear that Jaina has grown to despise the Horde almost from a "conceptual" standpoint and its very ideology that maintains its existence, realizing the obvious truth that the mere existence of the Horde will always potentially jeopardize her own faction's safety.

[Mehrunes]

my fanfiction?
"Alliance started the cataclysm war"
"Alliance is the agressor in BFA"
"Azerite is not a WMD"
please.

Look at all dem counterarguments Given how I on the other hand did address why your narrative is unsupported by the story (or in some cases, even things like logic or language), yes, your fanfiction.

[Aeula]

Since MoP I considered Jaina to be a broken character. Not in an emotional and ultimately relatable way but just completely broken through horrible storytelling.
After receiving the word from Baine about the incoming attack on Theramor, after it became widely known that bombing of the city has been done without a significant part of the Horde even knowing about it, after Horde’s champions helped against the Legion, she still says stuff like “I would do anything to destroy the Horde”.
Is there a way to fix her? Apart from the usual “She was corrupted!”, I don’t see any.
Maybe a brilliant twist within some amazing quest would reveal that she just had to blame someone for Theramor’s fall and then suddenly realized that it was her own fault?

Best way to fix her is to mount her head on a pike.

[FelPlague]

Hmm, let's see. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance-Horde_war Would you look at that, "King Varian Wrynn proclaimed open war against the Horde following the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate". Further corroborated by The Shattering book, which says that the factions had a truce after WotLK. A truce requires a war to begin with. The book also revolves around peace treaty talks between the faction (that went nowhere). To have a peace treaty you also *gasp* need a war. So I don't think I will. Because you haven't established it to be a lie and because the lore agrees with me. Also, just lol at the claim that a third party started a war between the Horde and the Alliance.




What she did or did not do after the Purge of Dalaran has zero relevance to the state of things before the Purge of Dalaran.




Kinda part of the point. Whooosh.

nice try i love it when you link me something, make something up, and the link is evidance to prove you wrong


Cataclysm
Cataclysm This section concerns content exclusive to Cataclysm.
The Shattering
Main article: The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm
With both factions recovering from war, the Alliance and Horde attempt to resume their tentative peace declared by their respective faction's peace treaty. Yet political tensions rose as the night elves of Darnassus have refused trade with the Horde and barred them from Ashenvale in protest of the Wrathgate. With the Horde’s supplies being depleted on account of the war with the Lich King and the unusual droughts affecting Orgrimmar, things were looking bleak for the Horde. Relations worsen as Twilight Hammer orcs under the guise of Horde forces, kill and skin night elf sentinels to frame the Horde. In an effort to quell the rising tensions, Hamuul Runetotem attempted to pursue diplomatic talks with his fellow night elf druids. Yet the talks became violent when the druid meeting was attacked by Twilight Hammer orcs believed to be sent by Garrosh Hellscream, acting warchief of the Horde.[3]

Three years have passed since the military forces of the Alliance and Horde first set foot on the shores of Northrend, and they now wage war amidst the disasters wrought by Deathwing's return to the world. The catastrophic Second Sundering left the resources in the world diminished, making the factions fight for what has been left. Thrall has left the Horde to lead the Earthen Ring's efforts in preventing the rift beneath the Maelstrom from tearing apart the world, and has appointed the ambitious Garrosh Hellscream as Warchief of the Horde in his absence. King Varian Wrynn, convinced that the Horde has remained unchecked for too long, continues to lead the Alliance.

The day before the Cataclysm, Alliance forces streamed out of Northwatch and marched up the Gold Road, besieging Crossroads as dusk fell. Then, in the heart of the night, they force-marched southward, leaving their campfires burning behind in order to surprise attack Honor's Stand at dawn's first light.[4]

that "war brought on by varian" was still DURING WOTLK that was after the wrathgate, not after wotlk, learn your timelines, it even breaks em all out on the website mehrunes.

ok then?
and ok then you stil have no ppoint, howcan she ask the kirin tor for help if they are not there....

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Best way to fix her is to mount her head on a pike.

as long as the plague using lichking 2.0 is also put on a pike for nuking any area she cant win, forcefully raising people, possibly enslaving people, annd starting wars.

[Kwento]

Best way to fix her is to mount her head on a pike.

That’s so lazy though...

[Aeula]

as long as the plague using lichking 2.0 is also put on a pike for nuking any area she cant win, forcefully raising people, possibly enslaving people, annd starting wars.

"B-but Sylvanas did a bad too!!!111 ;_;"

Do what you want with her, she's a Windrunner and Blizzard have already said they'll do something with her so I don't care.

That said, nothing wrong with starting wars and making sure the enemy can't use the resources of the land they're about to conquer via the plague.

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That’s so lazy though...

Handwaving her actions in the name of 'forgiveness' is worse.

[FelPlague]

Here you go.
Picture of her fireball hitting a sunreaver.



Picture of said Sunreaver marked as dead.



As you can see there's another sunreaver who died in her blizzard and another sunreaver who was killed by her fireball that you can see travelling in the second picture.

She did this three times in a row over the course of ten seconds or so. So don't tell me it was 'teh cooldown'. She's a murderous bitch that needs to be put in the ground.

three times in a row,funny.. cann you show a video of this happening?
because again ive linked many viideoos with it NEVER HAPPENING but suddenly you get it three times in a row, 2 expansions later,allsmot like scaling has bugged it out even more

please i want to see more of how you somehow got her to kill three in a row in ten seconds on your first try, well showing two static screenshots, well multiple videos of allmost 60 minutes of her walking around have her killing 0.

[Mehrunes]

uhh no, the horde attack first, you seem to not realize the concept of time, when the PC gets there, bases have allready been made and contact has been made, and the horde were told to kill any alliance they see, well alliance were told to defend themselves.

It's you who doesn't how fucking language works. Which is sad, but not really my problem. The Alliance player is sent to help Alliance operatives already in the area gather information on unknowing Horde. The Horde tries to keep their operation a secret. When you're discovered as a spy, aggression from the one spied on is generally the most common result. Likewise, someone trying to keep a secret operation secret would want to keep it that way even through force. Quest givers tell you the obvious thing. Words aren't an attack. There is no mention of an actual Horde attack. There is talk of Alliance aggression after the Alliance actually attacks the Horde miners. Complicated issue right here mon.

when we get there battle has allready happened, at that point the horde has allready engaged.

There is no talk of battle in either of the two quests you receive when you get there. They only, once again, talk about the task of this operation being observing Horde, as well as mention the Horde camp being infiltrated. Then they order you to blow stuff up. The Horde NPCs in camp mention nothing about any battle either. They *gasp* say things like "no trespassing". Because it's a secret operation Alliance wasn't supposed to know about.

again if you knew how to read i am fine with people disagreeing with me, hell i roleplay on wow and haverun into alot of cunts, but have an empty ignore list.
but you, you seem to love to skip facts and ignore when you have been told out, for example, again.

are you going to stop pushing that the alliance broke thetruce in cata, when really the twight hammmer did?

Twilight Hammer wasn't party to the truce so they couldn't have broken it. You not understanding simple political concept is also a problem that is entirely yours. There were two parties to the truce, the Horde and the Alliance. Alliance attack on the Barrens is the only faction attack that happened after end of WotLK and before the Cataclysm. All Horde attacks happened after Cataclysm. Going back to your limp-wristed flailing about the concept of time at the start of your amazing contribution, try to answer this question: who then attacked first?

do you REALLY think azerite is nothing big, that is just "eh" and not aWMD?

Just because it can be turned into one doesn't mean it innately is one. Are you seriously claiming we're wearing WMDs in BfA?

can you please read what i type before qouting things very much so out of order, at random?

I addressed almost every post of yours in the thread. Just because you ignored my earlier posts doesn't change that. It makes you the one who quotes things at random.

[Kwento]

Not forgivness. Why would anyone forgive her..? Just make her face the truth. That’s much more hurtful and humiliating.

[Aeula]

three times in a row,funny.. cann you show a video of this happening?
because again ive linked many viideoos with it NEVER HAPPENING but suddenly you get it three times in a row, 2 expansions later,allsmot like scaling has bugged it out even more

please i want to see more of how you somehow got her to kill three in a row in ten seconds on your first try, well showing two static screenshots, well multiple videos of allmost 60 minutes of her walking around have her killing 0.

You wanted proof. You've got it. Go see for yourself or bugger off with your blind love for your 'milf waifu'.

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Not forgivness. Why would anyone forgive her..? Just make her face the truth. That’s much more hurtful and humiliating.

Face the truth and then we can execute her, fine.

[Kwento]

After she talks to Thrall and he tells her that she disappointed him and that should visibly effect her. That would crush her entire story! Ohohoho! I’ve got chills!

[FelPlague]

You wanted proof. You've got it. Go see for yourself or bugger off with your blind love for your 'milf waifu'.

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Face the truth and then we can execute her, fine.

its not proof though.
you showed me 2 screenshots
i showed you half an hour of footage
what has more concrete evidance
the expansion is 2 expansions old now
most likely that happened because of fucked up heallth scaling from the stat squish.

again you have 2 screenshots from 2 expansions later.
i have 60minutes of footage from when it was current, and it never got close to happening over an hour, well you had iit happen 3 times in 10 seconds (literally impossible unless she 1 or two shot them, annd if she did it was for sure from fucked up scaling)

[Kiri]

My argument has nothing to do with studying artifacts and with Jaina personally trapping Horde soldiers trying to enter Darnassus, which is a hostile action. I.e. what neutrality actually prohibits. Research is not prohibited by it. Or storing gold from one side. Or allowing refugees from one side. Just hostile actions in favor of one side against the other. Jaina herself is the source for this being an action she has done. She herself admitted to breaking neutrality. It can't get simpler than that.

And what I'm saying implies Jaina did something different than what Aethas did (well, more accurately, did not do). Not that she did something different than what he would have done. Which is the hypothetical here, made by you, so how am I implicitly using it? And this is kinda a huge-ass difference. The difference between breaking neutrality and not breaking it.

Hell, even if she was just studying it while the Horde tried to steal it, that'd be OK. So my argument doesn't boil down to what you said it boils down whatsoever. Because she did not do just that. She personally either captured Horde POWs or killed Horde soldiers, depending on what her traps did. By her own admission. If Aethas did that, guess what, he'd break neutrality too. But since he didn't do such a thing, he did not break neutrality. Jesus fucking Christ, this is a basic international politics concept.

It is funny that you offer the storing gold thing as an example, because that gold is secured with wards and guards, just like Jaina secured the bell. Same with protecting refugees from extraction by their foes. Is a Dalaran banker not allowed to defend Horde gold from Alliance thieves?
The neutrality in this case comes from offering that service to both sides. The Kirin Tor assisted Lor'Themar when he asked for help in studying an artifact for Garrosh. Jaina assisted Darnassus when asked to install wards against anyone who might try to steal the bell, be it horde soldiers or renegade factions. This is the same kind of neutrality that many other factions ascribe to.
If the Earthen Ring is tasked with healing aftereffects of the Cataclysm that could be dangerous for an area and Horde forces seek to utilize the fissure to create an earthquake and harm the alliance, then the Earthen Ring will stop them. If the Argent Crusade is hunting a dangerous undead, but alliance forces seek to capture that undead and drop it into Thunderbluff, then it will stop them.

Ultimately, what Jaina did seems like standard operating procedure. Talk to person who is in possession of dangerous artifact. Secure it against theft. Study it so it can be handled safely.
I have not seen anyone call her out on this. Heck, when it came up in War Crimes, during a trial, Baine did not bring this up when the portal network being used was discussed. This is what the Kirin Tor do and both sides likely acquiesced to it, which is why no one called Aethas out for the Box, either. They are kind of the WMD control organization in WoW, that safeguards and studies those.
If Jaina had truly intended to take a side with Dalaran, to help one side win against the other, she could have just given the Alliance access to the portal network in the same way the one Sunreaver did. That would be a proper breach of protocol and neutrality. But raising defenses to stop anyone from stealing the bell? Especially when horde infiltrators might attack/assassinate her on sight (remember, many in the Horde considered her to not be neutral to begin with)? That is not how you declare for one side in a conflict.

[Mehrunes]

so killing is not attacking now? take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force, typically in a battle or war. weird i guess killing is not attacking now guys, perfect sense.

can you please read what i type before qouting

Now do try to spot the difference between "killing" and "telling to kill in case of contact". Unless you're willing to provide a source of the Horde forced that were instructed to kill Alliance forces snooping around their secret operation before Alliance blew up the shredders.

uranium can be used to make WMD and if all of a sudden north korea started mass mining thousands of tons of it do you think the rest of the world should just stand by because "ey they may just wanna make uhh... uranium powered cars!"

You're moving the goalposts to justifying Alliance attack. Also, this comparison relies on your poor understanding of uranium. Only certain types of uranium are viable for enriching to make nuclear weapons. And even then, Other types have other uses. Are there different types of Azerite? If so, do outline the difference between WMD-Azerite and enchanting-Azerite. Also, even then the Azerite used for WMDs would itself not be a WMD. Because language.

jaina acting on her own without the help of the kirin tor does not break the kirin tors neutrality. stop acting like she had the kirin tor defending darnasus.

Jaina on her own was the leader of the Council of Six. She herself was already a member of the Kirin Tor. And I can't stop acting like she had other Kirin Tor defending Darnassus because I never made such a claim. Once again, your straw-men aren't an effective argument.

REALLY YOU THINK GARROSH JUST WANTED TO MAKE A BOOK CLUB SO HE COULD READ STEAMMY ROMANCE NOVELS? OF FUCKING COARSE HE WANTED TO TAKE OVER AZEROTH, DID YOU EVEN PLAY SOO?

what was it "paint this continent red" and "cleanse the alliance scum" and "Cleanse these traitors from my horde" nah he was just understood, he didnt wanna rule the world he wanted peace<3

This does not look like a quote of me saying Garrosh didn't want to conquer Azeroth. Just more straw-men, growing more and more idiotic. I guess your spine is still nowhere to be found. And if you think that this petulant, inane hurrdurring about book clubs actually addresses what I said when the post you quoted talks about me having made an argument about Garrosh wanting to conquer Azeroth just this week, I guess your reading comprehension joined it on its adventures.

[ohwell]

Actions in 5.1? Are you refering to how she punished those that betrayed her? Yeah, how dare she actually take actions against people who betaryed her. She should be ashamed of herself.
And it turned out she was right about the Horde in Legion, soon as the Demons are defeated, those untrustworthy savages attack the Alliance. Besides, the Horde was barely present on Argus, we didn't really need their help to defeat them at the end of the day. We owe her an apology.
I don't know what faction you play, but it sounds to me like you are another Horde fanboy who is only upset about Jaina because she hates your faction, and nothing else. Ignoring actual facts as to why she is the way she is.
Jaina is one of my favorite characters, and I hope to see more of her in the future.

She punished innocent people for the very thing that she did all along so not sure what you're talking about in terms of those who betrayed her.

[Mehrunes]

nice try i love it when you link me something, make something up, and the link is evidance to prove you wrong

Did you even read the part I quoted?

that "war brought on by varian" was still DURING WOTLK that was after the wrathgate, not after wotlk, learn your timelines, it even breaks em all out on the website mehrunes.

Learn what a truce is. Because it's the same fucking war you ignorant.

ok then?
and ok then you stil have no ppoint, howcan she ask the kirin tor for help if they are not there....

The point was that she deliberately went for Vereesa's personal militia rather than the Kirin Tor because she was abusing her power. But yeah, I'm sure there was no Kirin Tor in Dalaran at all. Because reasons.

[FelPlague]

Now do try to spot the difference between "killing" and "telling to kill in case of contact". Unless you're willing to provide a source of the Horde forced that were instructed to kill Alliance forces snooping around their secret operation before Alliance blew up the shredders.




You're moving the goalposts to justifying Alliance attack. Also, this comparison relies on your poor understanding of uranium. Only certain types of uranium are viable for enriching to make nuclear weapons. And even then, Other types have other uses. Are there different types of Azerite? If so, do outline the difference between WMD-Azerite and enchanting-Azerite. Also, even then the Azerite used for WMDs would itself not be a WMD. Because language.





Jaina on her own was the leader of the Council of Six. She herself was already a member of the Kirin Tor. And I can't stop acting like she had other Kirin Tor defending Darnassus because I never made such a claim. Once again, your straw-men aren't an effective argument.




This does not look like a quote of me saying Garrosh didn't want to conquer Azeroth. Just more straw-men, growing more and more idiotic. I guess your spine is still nowhere to be found. And if you think that this petulant, inane hurrdurring about book clubs actually addresses what I said when the post you quoted talks about me having made an argument about Garrosh wanting to conquer Azeroth just this week, I guess your reading comprehension joined it on its adventures.

nnathanos tells you when you are being deployed to go to silithus to kill any alliance you see.
that iis before the shredders are blown up
you are sent there to kill alliance.
no there are not differant typpes of azerite, it is all very very powerful and could easily be used to destroy the alliance if the alliance had not found out

lastly i said "Garrosh wanted the bell" (Wich he did) "To try and take over the world" *Which he did) Because yes, he wanted the bell, he wanted it to try and take over the world, and you simply said "no he didnt, he wanted it to make an army that failed"

see this is why i have you on ignore, legiit the only person i have on ignore, why?
because you refuse to look at facts.
yes the twilight cult broke the treaty between the alliance and the horde post wotlk, can you read the post THAT YOU LINKED ME

yes azerite is a WMD

yes the horde are the aggressors in BFA

Infracted.

[Verdugo]

For that purge scenario, she teleports them in alliance version and kills them in horde version. Blizzard does this often to promote faction partisanship.

Basicaly you both got suckered by a cheap marketing trick.

Idiots.

[Kwento]

For that purge scenario, she teleports them in alliance version and kills them in horde version. Blizzard does this often to promote faction partisanship.

Basicaly you both got suckered by a cheap marketing trick.

Idiots.

If Blizzard knows how to do anything it’s create a war on forums