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  1. #481
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    Goddamnit not again.

  2. #482
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sefrimutro View Post
    Bourgeoisie intensifies.

    People typically don't use any metric at all. Mostly because they understand that labeling stuff as civilized or uncivilized is just eurocentric rhetoric, with a historic tinge of white supremacy.
    What were the European kingdoms doing in the Americas a few centuries ago? Civilizing those savages, of course.
    It's no different than labeling certain cultural expressions as "degenerate": just a tool of powerful to sustain the status quo.

    It's OK to support this or that human right with an argument. What's going on here is just hollow grandstanding.
    The Human Rights convention is strange, they act like its some universal mandate from Heaven, handed down on stone tablets from Mt. Sinai or something, edicts from a burning bush or whatnot. Not the intermittenly enforced and followed document created by the victorious powers after a bloody war and rarely if ever followed by those powers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by OTG View Post
    How can you think that this is normal behavior? To wish death and suffering on people?
    Some people just shouldn't be allowed to live due to the acts they commit.
    Quote Originally Posted by OTG View Post
    What the people in the OP did was horrible but to continue the same vicious circle by doing the same things that they did back to them
    It wouldn't be doing the same things that they did back to them in any capacity.
    Quote Originally Posted by OTG View Post
    is nothing short of a primitive and savage mentality that does not have a place in a civilized world. In the name of "justice", which is just a very thinly veiled word for "revenge", that's all it is.
    You keep using words you have no idea what they mean. Civilized world does not mean no death penalty.

  4. #484
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    You can hold people guilty beyond a reasonable doubt when the punishment is just prison time because that's actually reversible if you're mistaken. Killing them isn't reversible. That's the difference and it's an important one. There's zero gained from capital punishment and potentially infinite loss. Which is why no matter how small you make the chance of sentencing an innocent person to death (the only way to make it 0% is at an absurd financial cost) then that infinite loss still outweighs the zero gain. Even IF you could be 100% certain of the person's guilt, there's still what to gain exactly from killing them?
    What is the exact dollar amount for time lost? Say you lock up a woman at 18, realize by the time she's 60 that she was innocent? What is she going to do having lost her entire young life?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  5. #485
    Titan I Push Buttons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    Don't know, don't care. It's not relevant to my point. You sure as hell aren't bringing her back to life if you killed her at 18 though. It also would have punished her friends and families. At least if she was locked up unjustly rather than killed, the punishment to her and them wouldn't have been as severe.
    And from the point of view of the victims and their families, they wouldn't have had the justice they felt they deserved and the retribution they felt she deserved.

    If the deciding factor for whether or not we have the death penalty, in your opinion, is people's feelings... Then I vote the victim's feelings.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    What is the exact dollar amount for time lost? Say you lock up a woman at 18, realize by the time she's 60 that she was innocent? What is she going to do having lost her entire young life?
    What's the fix for killing someone you later discover is innocent? Pretty sure it's vastly superior to have to wrestle with how you compensate someone for wrongfully imprisoning them, which there's tons of court cases on if you actually are interested, than it is to have zero recourse because someone was murdered after spending years in prison. What she's going to do is hopefully be compensated enough to enjoy the remainder of her life outside of prison with the help of friend's and family. But more importantly not be dead because she was wrongfully convicted. Seriously unless you're just wondering out loud this was a horribly stupid point to bring up in response.


    Not to mention because of the possibility of killing an innocent person/the appeals process Death Row prisoner's are quite expensive and iirc much more so than life in prison. There's literally no upside to killing someone except to satiate the petty vengeance some people have. And I say that fully believing there are crimes that deserve death as a punishment but because of the aforementioned cost and I'd much rather let a few jerks rot in prison than wrongfully kill a single person it's a pointless practice that needs to be abolished.

    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    And from the point of view of the victims and their families, they wouldn't have had the justice they felt they deserved and the retribution they felt she deserved.

    If the deciding factor for whether or not we have the death penalty, in your opinion, is people's feelings... Then I vote the victim's feelings.
    The victim in this hypothetical is the person who was wrongfully imprisoned. You do know that right? You're voting we should risk killing innocent people not for justice but for feels.

    I personally prefer a system where you're innocent before proven guilty and where wrongfully punishing innocents is worse than letting a guilty person walk. You seem to take the opposite approach where as long as we get the guilty people who cares if innocent people get caught in the crossfire! Long as it's not you eh.

    Also what is with people and this attitude that life in prison is some magical paradise? Prison sucks pretty hard in the US.
    Last edited by shimerra; 2018-02-10 at 10:37 PM.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  7. #487
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    What's the fix for killing someone you later discover is innocent?
    How do you compensate for taking someone's life away in terms of time sapped, versus say just killing them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by shimerra View Post
    The victim in this hypothetical is the person who was wrongfully imprisoned. You do know that right? You're voting we should risk killing innocent people not for justice but for feels.

    I personally prefer a system where you're innocent before proven guilty and where wrongfully punishing innocents is worse than letting a guilty person walk. You seem to take the opposite approach where as long as we get the guilty people who cares if innocent people get caught in the crossfire! Long as it's not you eh.

    Also what is with people and this attitude that life in prison is some magical paradise? Prison sucks pretty hard in the US.
    I never made such an argument.

    And some crimes deserve a death penalty. That's the end of my opinion. If you rape and murder someone, if you murder a police office, if you murder children, if you murder multiple people, if you are a terrorist, etc... You deserve to die. Its that simple in my opinion.

    I trust the modern legal system. Its 2018. They can't lock you in an interrogation room for 48 hours and coerce an incoherent confession out of you and then drudge up a shaky eyewitness and have those two things alone be enough for a conviction like they could back in the day. Not only is the burden of proof itself beyond a reasonable doubt, but to get the death penalty today the crime requires aggravating factors which also have their own burdens of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And there are so many civil/human rights groups watching the justice system's every move, so much media, both social and mainstream, etc., watching. Everything is scrutinized to such an extent that I genuinely believe it is nearly impossible for someone to be wrongfully sentenced to death in this day and age in the US.

  9. #489
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    He literally answered that question and you're just asking it again? I know you're smarter than this.
    He or she answered it with the assumption that I was pro-death penalty, which is not something I have said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    You don't have to go back very far to find people who were wrongfully convicted and in many cases the only reason they didn't get the death penalty is because their state already abolished it.

    I've yet to hear anyone give me an actual upside to capital punishment and regardless of morals or feelings, it's not economically the correct decision without risking more innocent lives wrongfully convicted.

    You're just flat out wrong about people being wrongfully convicted in this day and age.

    Here's a list of some from the last decade of people who did get the death penalty but luckily exonerated in time. How many people do you think weren't exonerated in time?

    https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/causes-...ul-convictions
    With regard to bold, in the last decade or two? Zero. If you are one of the .00001% of people wrongfully sentenced to death, you need only write one of the 20 different justice projects and they will bend over backwards to prove your innocence and hold you up as an example of why we should abolish the death penalty.

    And it is, as you put it, economical, if you believe as I believe that there is a negligible risk to the innocent in this day and age. Your argument would be valid in the 50s. It would be valid in the 70s. It would be valid even in the 90s. It is not valid today, in my opinion.

    Aggravated murderers/terrorist/etc., do not deserve a long, healthy, and comfortable life in a jail cell; that is not adequate punishment, once again, in my opinion.

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    That's just foolish to believe every single false conviction was actually realized and overturned. Especially considering the vast majority of them end up happening because of poor legal representation. Those types of justice projects also can't represent everyone.

    Even right now with how few people are wrongfully convicted (which I do agree it's far less than the past) it is still vastly more expensive than life in prison, 20x in extreme cases and about 2-3x the cost on average. Not to mention the actual cost of keeping the prisoner on death row for how many ever years it takes to actually kill them (I believe 10 years on average).

    Sure, you could make it more "efficient" and cost effective but that will, for a fact, increase the chance of killing innocent people.

    You're also delusional if you think people in max security prison have a "comfortable" life in a jail cell. I also don't see how killing someone is punishment at all. Regardless of your belief on an after life, if there is one then killing them doesn't matter since they'll suffer in hell for eternity. The decades they have here are pretty meaningless regardless. If there is no after life then it's certainly not a punishment. They just don't exist afterward.
    In what way?

    Three meals a day, a bed, heating and cooling, medical care, recreation activity, protection from other inmates, etc., etc... Not providing all of these things is considered cruel and unusual punishment today.

    They will live a better life than most people in the world... And a hell of a lot better life than the life/lives they took.

  12. #492
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    That's just foolish to believe every single false conviction was actually realized and overturned. Especially considering the vast majority of them end up happening because of poor legal representation. Those types of justice projects also can't represent everyone.

    Even right now with how few people are wrongfully convicted (which I do agree it's far less than the past) it is still vastly more expensive than life in prison, 20x in extreme cases and about 2-3x the cost on average. Not to mention the actual cost of keeping the prisoner on death row for how many ever years it takes to actually kill them (I believe 10 years on average).

    Sure, you could make it more "efficient" and cost effective but that will, for a fact, increase the chance of killing innocent people.

    You're also delusional if you think people in max security prison have a "comfortable" life in a jail cell. I also don't see how killing someone is punishment at all. Regardless of your belief on an after life, if there is one then killing them doesn't matter since they'll suffer in hell for eternity. The decades they have here are pretty meaningless regardless. If there is no after life then it's certainly not a punishment. They just don't exist afterward.
    I would even consider it to be mercy, life in prison is far worse than an easy, painless, death. Especially in US prisons and those in authoritarian regimes.

  13. #493
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    In what way?

    Three meals a day, a bed, heating and cooling, medical care, recreation activity, protection from other inmates, etc., etc... Not providing all of these things is considered cruel and unusual punishment today.

    They will live a better life than most people in the world... And a hell of a lot better life than the life/lives they took.
    Who know who else got all that? Slaves. You know who else wasn’t allowed the freedom to do what they want? Slaves.
    Are you one of those “the slaves had it pretty good” people?

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    Who know who else got all that? Slaves. You know who else wasn’t allowed the freedom to do what they want? Slaves.
    Are you one of those “the slaves had it pretty good” people?
    Did the slaves in question rape and murder to deserve that punishment?

    I don't think I have ever seen a more disingenuous argument in my entire fucking life.

  15. #495
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Did the slaves in question rape and murder to deserve that punishment?

    I don't think I have ever seen a more disingenuous argument in my entire fucking life.
    Really? Why?

    What’s the difference between a prisoner and a slave?

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    You must not know much at all about prison. I mean seriously, "protection from other inmates". Really? You think guards are watching them all 24/7? You'd be wrong. And they don't have to provide heating and cooling to comfortable temperatures like 70 degrees or some shit. Try 50's in the winter and 85ish in the summer.

    To 99% of people, being confined and told where to go, what to do and when and what to eat is pretty punishing.

    I'm not sure how you've turned this into a conversation about the quality of life of prisoners. That's not relevant.
    Because you literally fucking brought it up...

    Also let me get this straight?

    Your entire argument hinges on protecting the innocent, yet you are ok with sending them to prison to be raped and abused?

    By your logic that you are applying to the death penalty, we shouldn't send anyone to prison at all because innocent people would suffer there.

  17. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxx79 View Post
    Really? Why?

    What’s the difference between a prisoner and a slave?
    Did you really just ask this?

  18. #498
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Did you really just ask this?

    Are you going to answer?

  19. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexx226 View Post
    Your point was that their life is comfortable. It's not. Not so much just from the living conditions but the literal lack of freedom.
    Only one of them deserves that lack of freedom, through their own actions, and then some.

  20. #500
    I am Murloc! Noxx79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    Only one of them deserves that lack of freedom, through their own actions, and then some.
    So it’s the REASON for their servitude, not their actual treatment.
    You said prisoners had it pretty good, (living lives like slaves).
    So were slaves treated pretty good?

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