Burning of Teldressil Broadcast Text (Spoiler!!!)

[Rhymor]

One thing that tends to be overlooked is the beginning of Legion. You can take this however you want, but the implication is blatant. On the Broken Shore, the only reason the Horde survives the attack is because Sylvanas jumped into action and made a tough call. A tough call that put her val'kyr - her lifelines - in danger. If she were so selfish, evil, and didn't care about anyone but herself she wouldn't have gambled everything in that moment. Furthermore, when she is told she will be the next Warchief, she is visibly stunned and remains there for a seemingly long time until she is alone in Grommash Hold.

Using the Blight as a weapon can be all the deplorable things you want to call it, but it's little different than using mages on the battlefield. No one has ever had a problem with the idea of the humans and elves literally bringing a hellstorm down on the Amani trolls during the Troll Wars that melted them and instantly turned them into corpses but they have a problem with barrels of goop that turn people into corpses. It's really no different between the two. If you are against the use of Blight, then you are against the use of magic as a weapon in warfare. There can't be this double standard.

Sylvanas has an agenda. Sylvanas is a dark character. Sylvanas has done shady things. To say that Sylvanas cares absolutely nothing for the Horde or her people? No. That's an outright lie and is contradicted by the Edge of Night story where it states that the Forsaken would no longer be, "just arrows in her quiver."

[Qualia]

Using the Blight as a weapon can be all the deplorable things you want to call it, but it's little different than using mages on the battlefield. No one has ever had a problem with the idea of the humans and elves literally bringing a hellstorm down on the Amani trolls during the Troll Wars that melted them and instantly turned them into corpses but they have a problem with barrels of goop that turn people into corpses. It's really no different between the two. If you are against the use of Blight, then you are against the use of magic as a weapon in warfare. There can't be this double standard.

I wouldn't agree with this. The Blight is to normal magic would be like a chemical bomb to normal bombs. Yes, they both are capable of killing a assive amount of people at the same time, but there are differences in the methods and the effect on the land / nature. There is a reason why, in real life, we have an international treaty that ban chemical weapons, but none about normal bombs.

[Mehrunes]

magic isn't a different weapon, mak'gora is a duel 1vs1, thrall used its shamanic power end of the story (or do you think that if he was a mage he should only use a wand and no magic?)and blizzard already give garrosh a plot armor 3 time against thrall, the first duel, siege of orgrimmar and basically the entire wod; same thing the do when someone go against malfurion.

Given how Shamanistic power comes from the Elementals, it's not even one person, let alone one weapon.

[Wildberry]

magic isn't a different weapon, mak'gora is a duel 1vs1, thrall used its shamanic power end of the story (or do you think that if he was a mage he should only use a wand and no magic?)and blizzard already give garrosh a plot armor 3 time against thrall, the first duel, siege of orgrimmar and basically the entire wod; same thing the do when someone go against malfurion.

Magic is literally a different weapon. Thrall broke the rules. How are people even arguing this at this point?

Never mind the fact that Thrall had training as a warrior. He wasn't just a Shaman.

the mak'gora is a 1vs1 thrall is shaman and use element, asking him not to do is just like asking a hunter to not use a pet or a warlock not to use a demon; but because to begin with garrosh never had a chance to win people invented any sort of rule why? Because fundamentally wow player hate the most when an npc stole the spotlight.

People didn't "invent a sort of rule" because of that duel. The rules of Mak'gora were clearly laid out years before Thrall and Garrosh fought in Nagrand.

[Huntaer]

Goblins most likely, they are the only other ones up there, with enough influence.

He said loyal to the horde, not the gold :P

[Mehrunes]

I wouldn't agree with this. The Blight is to normal magic would be like a chemical bomb to normal bombs. Yes, they both are capable of killing a assive amount of people at the same time, but there are differences in the methods and the effect on the land / nature. There is a reason why, in real life, we have an international treaty that ban chemical weapons, but none about normal bombs.

Blight is an acid. There is very little practical difference against an acid burn and a fire burn to the victim. Only strongest strains of Blight have any visible effects on the ground, like the one in Southshore (which was an accident). And the reason why we ban chemical weapons IRL is because the chemical weapons we use are gasses. Liquids are not particularly viable. The thing about gases is that we can't exactly contain them to the area of deployment. Instead they spread across hundreds of kilometers. And can affect civilian centers. Carpet bombing of which is illegal as per Geneva Convention even with normal bombs.

[Combatbutler]

He said loyal to the horde, not the gold :P

Sometimes they tend to lean more in favor to the horde, like Gazlowe for example.

[bufferunderrun]

Magic is literally a different weapon. Thrall broke the rules. How are people even arguing this at this point?

Never mind the fact that Thrall had training as a warrior. He wasn't just a Shaman.



People didn't "invent a sort of rule" because of that duel. The rules of Mak'gora were clearly laid out years before Thrall and Garrosh fought in Nagrand.

so basically any class different than warrior automatically lose and should decline duel because using any kind of magic would be a rule infringement? what sort of nonsense is that?

The rules of a Mak'gora are ill-defined and inconsistent, and seem to change with each depiction. The only consistent theme is that the pair fight to the death or until submission.

As described in The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm, Bloodsworn and Blood and Thunder the rules for the selected Mak'gora are:

Each participant is allowed one weapon. Whether using a shield, dual wielding, or using magic as a 'weapon' is allowed are not specified.
A blessing of this weapon by a shaman of their choosing is permitted, but not required. This was only used in the duel between Garrosh Hellscream and Cairne Bloodhoof.
Body armor is forbidden. This is a shaky rule, as some 'spur of the moment' Mak'gora involve both fighters wearing armor.
Each participant must have at least one witness.
If both participants refuse to fight one another, they are banished from the clan.[7]
Traditionally, it is to the death, but under Warchief Thrall's rule it became a non-lethal combat, similiar to Warsong's Mak'Rogahn. Participants can choose to forgo this change.[1] However, even when operating under the old rules, the victor can choose to spare the loser's life,[5] though it's considered a grave insult.[8]
There are no stated rules on the use of magic, but, having been used in multiple Mak'gora duels in different stories and settings, it seems to be permitted.
In ogre clans, only an ogre may challenge another ogre to a mak'gora, but the challenger may then choose a champion to fight on his/her behalf.[6]

actually this whole "thrall cheated" come from what i described in my first reply, when blizzard clearly give us a glimpse of those characters power some player immediately feel butthurt and so to avoid this situation they keep nerfing them.

[Kuja]

I hope they take the ghost town Darnassus as well.

[Deleted]

so basically any class different than warrior automatically lose and should decline duel because using any kind of magic would be a rule infringement? what sort of nonsense is that?



actually this whole "thrall cheated" come from what i described in my first reply, when blizzard clearly give us a glimpse of those characters power some player immediately feel butthurt and so to avoid this situation they keep nerfing them.

The problem with the whole Makgora thing is, that it was never intended as anything else than a fight between two warriors. The strongest warrior leads the clan and is advised by a shaman. A shaman was never intended to lead, because his job with the elements and his role as advisor did not fit with 'worldly' concerns. The elements don't care if there's a stupid chieftain who wipes out half of his clan and one other, because he thinks killing is the best thing in the world. As long as he doesn't upset the natural balance of a region, it's none of their business and also none of the shaman's business.
When Ner'zhul made them into the Horde and united the clans, he upset this all. Suddenly the shaman decided the worldly matters too and on a much larger scale. Where before there had been small clans, there was now one unified Horde and while they still had a warrior warchief, it was the Shaman (first Ner'zhul and then Gul'dan) who decided what happened. The old rules were moot at that point.

Thrall tried to be both things, warrior warchief and the chiefest shaman, that's not was it was intended and also not within the ruleset of an original makgora. Thrall tried to offset that with 'new' rules to a makgora, but Garrosh wanted the old rules back, when the old tradition wasn't even valid anymore: chieftain = warrior.
Aggra tried to tell Thrall that being a warchief isn't the place for a shaman and he must decide. Which he did, he decided to be a shaman.
I actually don't think that the fight between Thrall and Garrosh was a real Makgora at all, because Thrall had no intention of becoming any sort of leader again, he just wanted to kill Garrosh. It wasn't a fight for any kind of 'higher' purpose, it was just.. a fight.
I think this is also part of the reason why the elements don't respond well to Thrall anymore. Worldly concerns and fits of murderous rage should not be the basis upon which you call the elements, no matter how justified your rage may be. And maybe part of it is also that Thrall knows this and started to doubt himself in that light.

[Wildberry]

so basically any class different than warrior automatically lose and should decline duel because using any kind of magic would be a rule infringement? what sort of nonsense is that?

Nobody said that magic is banned, just that it counts as a weapon. Thrall entered the duel using the Doomhammer. After being disarmed, he chose to use a second weapon (magic), which is against the rules.

This isn't a difficult concept, I don't know why you're struggling with it.

[bufferunderrun]

Nobody said that magic is banned, just that it counts as a weapon. Thrall entered the duel using the Doomhammer. After being disarmed, he chose to use a second weapon (magic), which is against the rules.

This isn't a difficult concept, I don't know why you're struggling with it.

Because is a totally made up concept magic as a weapon is totally bs, by that a mage with a staff should only melee with it and not use any magic.

Garrosh overestimated himself and got owned


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

[Wildberry]

Because is a totally made up concept magic as a weapon is totally bs,

So, I really hate to pull out dictionary definitions, but you're struggling on a very basic concept, so it might actually help you:

Weapon
(noun)
1. A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.

-OED
Now, in your mind, would magic fall under the above definition, or would it not?

by that a mage with a staff should only melee with it and not use any magic.

Or he could just use magic, and not attack with his staff? Real hard to grasp, I know...

Garrosh overestimated himself and got owned

Yes, and Thrall cheated and got cucked out of Shaman powers.

[bufferunderrun]

So, I really hate to pull out dictionary definitions, but you're struggling on a very basic concept, so it might actually help you:

-OED
Now, in your mind, would magic fall under the above definition, or would it not?


Or he could just use magic, and not attack with his staff? Real hard to grasp, I know...


Yes, and Thrall cheated and got cucked out of Shaman powers.

magic
ˈmadʒɪk
noun
1.
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces.

Magic isn't a weapon but a kind of power inherent to the individual, you are the one who made the assumption that magic is a weapon, in fact magic could be channeled throught a weapon, a staff or a wand for mages, a sword or a shield for paladin, an arrow for hunters ecc; the reasoning that magic is equivalent to weapon is ridiculous.

By that concept a paladin imbuing it's weapon with holy light is cheating, an hunter firing a black arrow (physical arrow imbued with shadow magic) is cheating, a dk imbuing its swords with frost or decaying magic is cheating. Truth is a warrior in wow is considered on par with magical class because gameplay but lorewise is totally at disadvantage.

thrall didn't actually that affirmation is totally based on made up rules, garrosh vs thrall was a duel btw a warrior and a shaman, the warrior overestimated himself and got owned end of the story.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with the whole Makgora thing is, that it was never intended as anything else than a fight between two warriors. The strongest warrior leads the clan and is advised by a shaman. A shaman was never intended to lead, because his job with the elements and his role as advisor did not fit with 'worldly' concerns. The elements don't care if there's a stupid chieftain who wipes out half of his clan and one other, because he thinks killing is the best thing in the world. As long as he doesn't upset the natural balance of a region, it's none of their business and also none of the shaman's business.
When Ner'zhul made them into the Horde and united the clans, he upset this all. Suddenly the shaman decided the worldly matters too and on a much larger scale. Where before there had been small clans, there was now one unified Horde and while they still had a warrior warchief, it was the Shaman (first Ner'zhul and then Gul'dan) who decided what happened. The old rules were moot at that point.

Thrall tried to be both things, warrior warchief and the chiefest shaman, that's not was it was intended and also not within the ruleset of an original makgora. Thrall tried to offset that with 'new' rules to a makgora, but Garrosh wanted the old rules back, when the old tradition wasn't even valid anymore: chieftain = warrior.
Aggra tried to tell Thrall that being a warchief isn't the place for a shaman and he must decide. Which he did, he decided to be a shaman.
I actually don't think that the fight between Thrall and Garrosh was a real Makgora at all, because Thrall had no intention of becoming any sort of leader again, he just wanted to kill Garrosh. It wasn't a fight for any kind of 'higher' purpose, it was just.. a fight.
I think this is also part of the reason why the elements don't respond well to Thrall anymore. Worldly concerns and fits of murderous rage should not be the basis upon which you call the elements, no matter how justified your rage may be. And maybe part of it is also that Thrall knows this and started to doubt himself in that light.

the problem is that wow for the sake of gameplay put warrior on the same league of magic users and peoples think they are on par, in lore a mage could own an entire battalion of warriors with an aoe; in the end lorewise a magical user (especially those character like malfurion, thrall etc.) are well above simple warriors.

[Niwes]

I really hope malfurion won't make it. Seeing him burn with that goddamn tree would be glorious. And tyrandes reaction would be even better.

siiiiign that. get rid of that douche bags.

[Wildberry]

Magic isn't a weapon but a kind of power inherent to the individual, you are the one who made the assumption that magic is a weapon, in fact magic could be channeled throught a weapon, a staff or a wand for mages, a sword or a shield for paladin, an arrow for hunters ecc; the reasoning that magic is equivalent to weapon is ridiculous.

You're dodging the point here. Is magic, in Warcraft, "a thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage?" If it is, then it's a weapon.

And, plenty of casters in Warcraft do just fine without channeling through a weapon, for the record.

thrall didn't actually that affirmation is totally based on made up rules, garrosh vs thrall was a duel btw a warrior and a shaman, the warrior overestimated himself and got owned end of the story.

Cairne regarded the orc with contempt, then shook his head and composed himself. "We each may select one weapon. A shaman of our own choosing is permitted to bless it."

--"The Shattering," p242

Yes, it's "made up," but it's "made up" by Blizzard, so it's canon.

Seriously, just stop. This is embarrassing.

[Deleted]

Alliance struck first in BfA. Its not that she knew the war was inevitable, its that the Alliance had already started a war.

Same with Theramore, Horde dropped a bomb on a city that was openly being used as a military base against the Horde.

Saying alliance started a war by disrupting a goblin operation that aims to harm the world itself by draining its lifeblood is ridiculous. This is small skirmish at best, not unlike what happens in BGs and a lot of questlines where small forces of both factions have a spat. Thats Not a full scale war.

In the meantime, in the oncoming book Sylvanas is mobilizing for a full scale invasion of Stormwind right after the legion is defeated, which would be an open act of war.

See the difference?

[Verdugo]

In the meantime, in the oncoming book Sylvanas is mobilizing for a full scale invasion of Stormwind right after the legion is defeated, which would be an open act of war.

How do you know that. It could be a red herring.

[Arrashi]

How do you know that. It could be a red herring.

In his defense - i kinda doubt blizzard is capable of properly using red herrings.

[Verdugo]

In his defense - i kinda doubt blizzard is capable of properly using red herrings.

There is no doubt she plans to attack Stormwind, but how does HE know.