The lies and misrepresenttions of Titanforging

[HuxNeva]

The problem, though, is that this is true even for heroic raiders. It used to be that once you had farmed a given difficulty a bit and were doing well in the next one you'd not bother running the lower difficulty. So, once people have most of what they can get for normal, you could focus on heroic. But with WF and TF, it's worth it to run a quick normal clear just in case. That's fine...but if you want to raid 2x a week, now you're spending the first night or part of the first night on content that you don't really care about *just* because of the possible WF/TF drops. That cuts into progress in heroic.

I think many fewer people would be advocating for a change if WF was capped at, say, 5-10 levels and TF was capped at something around 10-15. That still adds a bit of excitement but it's not so compelling that most raids would bother running a lower tier just for the gear.

So your saying: make it so it's not worth running other content then current tier at current difficulty. You see that this means starving all content of relevance? So dungeons go back to early leveling before the first raid opens, M+ becomes the worthless niche activity that 'challenge mode' was and so on.

[Gaaz]

IMO, titanforging should be limited to tertiary stats only. I personally have a 970 injector and 980 boots from HC Antorus. Chances of getting better gear for these slots in mythic are very close to zero. I am likely not changing socketed 950 set gloves for a mythic version, unless it titanforges to at least +10, as well as my 970+955(+socket) rings. So basically I have 5 pieces of loot from Heroic Antorus and Mythic+ dungeons that I am extremely unlikely to change in mythic Antorus, bar some crazy TF RNG and a lucky loot roll on top of that. This is no fun.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

That still doesn't explain this quote that you mention as well as the "difficult math" that you're stating. Both Hit and Expertise had single hard caps that were well understood by the community for many years. They were dead stats, yes, but no where near "mathematically" implausible to understand.

Scenario, as previously mentioned.
You get gloves drop from Raid, 20 ilvl upgrade and your BiS item for that raid tier but they got no Hit.
Your old gloves had Hit as one of the base stats, which you used to get hit capped.
Now you have to reforge around your entire equipment to get as close as possible to the hit cap.
Your first thought is to reforge your new gloves but they got Haste and Mastery, your best stats, so you don't want to do that.
So you try one of your rings but that puts you 150 rating over so that's a waste.
.
.
.
17 attempts later you finally reach your ideal number without wasting any stats.

That was the REAL way Reforging was done before third party (websites) and addons made it automated for you, keep in mind that Blizzard said Reforging was too "mathy" and complicated for the AVERAGE player. I, like you (from what I gather), had no issues with Reforging and grasped it quickly. However the average player might've not known about the hit and expertise caps, let alone their optimal stats. Blizzard has for years tried to make WoW easier to enter and get into, WoW is a very old game with a lot to learn. The learning curve is almost a wall to new players, but that's a different topic.

[Arrent]

TF hate just seems like a very easy thing to bandwagon, just like the "AP grind." And people like to hate on Blizzard/WoW for very little nitpicky things.

[Polarthief]

I'd be fine with TF if they kept it out of Mythic raiding. Like right now, max iLvl is 985, Mythic drops are 960, Argus drops +10 (970).

So, what if every end-boss always dropped +10 and all Mythic raiding gear could WF up to +10 (that end-boss's iLvl)? Max iLvl would now be 970.

Would literally anyone have a problem with that comparison to live? I think it's a lot better than having Mythic raiding be so imbalanced based on how many 985s (+25s) you get for your team.

TF hate just seems like a very easy thing to bandwagon, just like the "AP grind." And people like to hate on Blizzard/WoW for very little nitpicky things.

Or because it's cancerous to raiding. You get a piece of gear but then the guy next to you gets a +25 version of what you just got. Feels bad.

I don't care about non-raiding players having gear equivalent/better than me by any means, I just have a problem when it's RNG if your BiS item will drop at 960 vs 985, because 960 is far from BiS.

[Deleted]

TF hate just seems like a very easy thing to bandwagon, just like the "AP grind." And people like to hate on Blizzard/WoW for very little nitpicky things.

I guess the entire gearing process and drop system in a loot based/progression RPG game is a "very little nitpicky thing".

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

25%? Lol. Make that 10%, and I'm being generous here. Mythic raid scene is about 100K people. MAybe you need to learn and pace yourself. As I stated: trying to farm anything beyond a +15 TF is pointless and a waste of energy.

Mythic raid teams are usually 22-25 people.
This tier (T21) 6922 guilds have defeated the first boss on Mythic. That gives you 152.284 to 173.050 characters.
Previous tier (T20) 8524 guilds defeated the first boss on Mythic. That gives you 187.528 to 213.100 characters.

At the same time there's around 18.700 characters that have defeated the first boss on Heroic (Tier 21), which is less than 3 times as much. So to say that Mythic raiding accounts for AT LEAST 25% of the raiding scene isn't wrong...

https://www.wowprogress.com/

[Deleted]

You're entirely right. The anti-TF argument is a virulent combination of mathematical illiteracy and elitist douchebaggery.

Yeah, or people don't want to feel unsatisfied by getting non upgraded gear. TF is just not capped, that is the issue, at least that is my opinion.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

So your saying: make it so it's not worth running other content then current tier at current difficulty. You see that this means starving all content of relevance? So dungeons go back to early leveling before the first raid opens, M+ becomes the worthless niche activity that 'challenge mode' was and so on.

Mythic + should reward gear that is appropriate in regards to how high gear you needed to complete the difficulty you did it on.
Meaning if you did a mythic +10 you should get gear rewards that mythic +11 is tuned to be done with. Warforged should give you +12 (+5 ilvls) and + 13 (+10 ilvls) rewards but no more.

Example (made up ilvl numbers):
Mythic + 0 = tuned to be done with 850 ilvl, rewards 855 ilvl items (+5/+10 for WF)
Mythic + 1 = tuned to be done with 855 ilvl, rewards 860 ilvl items (+5/+10 for WF)
Mythic + 2 = tuned to be done with 860 ilvl, rewards 865 ilvl items (+5/+10 for WF)
Mythic + 3 = tuned to be done with 865 ilvl, rewards 870 ilvl items (+5/+10 for WF)
.
.
etc

Same with raiding:
T21 Normal tuned to be done with 925 ilvl, rewarded 935 items (+5/+10 for WF)
T21 Heroic tuned to be done with 945 ilvl, rewarded 955 items (+5/+10 for WF)
T21 Mythic tuned to be done with 965 ilvl, rewarded with 975 (+5/+10 for WF)
----------------------------------------------

Why should you by the drop of RNG (luck) be rewarded items that are from completely different activities?

[Osmeric]

The problem, though, is that this is true even for heroic raiders. It used to be that once you had farmed a given difficulty a bit and were doing well in the next one you'd not bother running the lower difficulty. So, once people have most of what they can get for normal, you could focus on heroic. But with WF and TF, it's worth it to run a quick normal clear just in case. That's fine...but if you want to raid 2x a week, now you're spending the first night or part of the first night on content that you don't really care about *just* because of the possible WF/TF drops. That cuts into progress in heroic.

I think many fewer people would be advocating for a change if WF was capped at, say, 5-10 levels and TF was capped at something around 10-15. That still adds a bit of excitement but it's not so compelling that most raids would bother running a lower tier just for the gear.

Yes, there could be useful drops from normal. The difference is the kind of people who stop at heroic are less likely to feel the need to do it if they don't want to. The dog-eat-dog competitive spirit in mythic isn't there.

I know this, because I'm a slow but steady raider whose group gets H done months into the tier, and we stop running N even when it's possible there would be rewards there from TF.

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Yeah, or people don't want to feel unsatisfied by getting non upgraded gear. TF is just not capped, that is the issue, at least that is my opinion.

Which is the source of all the complaints about the unworthy getting drops they don't deserve?

[clevin]

I know this, because I'm a slow but steady raider whose group gets H done months into the tier, and we stop running N even when it's possible there would be rewards there from TF.

/headdesk....

for the 5 millionth time I have to point out to someone that just because they do things one way does not mean they represent everyone. YOUR heroic raid may not farm normal,. Others may feel they should. For example... the raid my guild does.

God, people, when the fuck will you all learn that reasoning from the specific is a classic, really basic flaw in logic?

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Which is the source of all the complaints about the unworthy getting drops they don't deserve?

Where's your sources? It's not about people getting drops they don't deserve, it's about the fact that you can get a drop for a slot where you have a TFed piece and it's not an upgrade. In the past, with TF absent or capped, that drop would be an upgrade and you'd be psyched to get it. But if the TF piece was 30 or 40 levels above base so the drop is maybe a 5 level boost... it feels less good.

[Osmeric]

/headdesk....

for the 5 millionth time I have to point out to someone that just because they do things one way does not mean they represent everyone. YOUR heroic raid may not farm normal,. Others may feel they should. God, people, when the fuck will you all learn that reasoning from the specific is a classic, really basic flaw in logic?

As opposed to the comprehensive list of evidence you provided, right?

You would have me believe there are lots of people who are so driven they will feel compelled to do all that they can to advance, but will also be happy just stopping at heroic. This seems so inherently self-contradictory to me that unless you can show me some stats supporting that I'm not going to believe you.

[kary]

And how much gear did it make "unusable"? exactly all of the gear that does not titanforge, so where is the benefit exactly, well you could say "keeping players engaged longer", except it does not do that, because most players know basic probability and how fucking unlikely it is to get full TF gear with sockets, so they just don't even try. Instead they get frustrated every single fucking time they clear a full mythic raid and the piece of gear that they're hopping to TF doesn't instead they get the shitty normal version of the loot, that basically useless, and blizzard keeps pushing this system inside mythic raids why? to keep players subbed longer, well guess what mythic raiders are 1-2% of the player base and they're not very likely to unsub anyway, so I ask again why keep pushing this shit gear system inside mythic raiding, keep it out of mythic raiding and restrict TF/WF to LFR/Normal/heroic/M+/WQ, and every single mythic raider will thank blizzard for it. maybe even sub again to the game now that the extra layers of RNG bulshit have been taken out of the hardest content in game and mythic gives deterministic rewards again.

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I don't care about the non-optimal pieces of gear, I care that getting BiS items during the Current tier is now literally mathematically impossible, and I know that i'll never get the piece of TF gear I want because it's so dam unlikely due to all of the extra layers of RNG involved with droping a piece of gear.

When TF wans't a thing, you only had to go trough one layer of RNG to get the BIS piece, and that's why those sub-optimal pieces didn't feel that bad, because you knew that when the piece of gear you were looking for drooped it would be the best version of itself possible.

So what's preventing you from just getting the base il of the item drop apart from some stupid mental issue you got? The game isn't tuned around aspergers

Really, comparing 2-3 items per expansion that could scale well (but not having a higher ilvl) and last for some classes, with the total shit Legion has introduced is at least pitiful. Legendaries, 2 or 4 Tier sets from previous tier raids, Arcanocrystal lasting the whole expansion from start till end, other Nightmare and Nighthold trinkets... And all of that tied to extreme RNG. Sorry, you're brown-nosing Blizz devs now.

No, I'm just not a whiny child obsessed with hyperbole.
How is arcano different from death's verdict or dragonspine trophy? You spent all expansion trying to get one if you didn't, and never replaced it when you did.

[Deleted]

Yes, there could be useful drops from normal. The difference is the kind of people who stop at heroic are less likely to feel the need to do it if they don't want to. The dog-eat-dog competitive spirit in mythic isn't there.

I know this, because I'm a slow but steady raider whose group gets H done months into the tier, and we stop running N even when it's possible there would be rewards there from TF.

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Which is the source of all the complaints about the unworthy getting drops they don't deserve?

Well, yes. Imo it is not fair that heroic raiders have some better pieces than mythic raiders, since mythic raiding requires so much more than hc raiding. 50-100 wipes instead of 5, a fixed roster of 20 people, plus all the so grind in legion. I just think if I kill aggramar on hc I do not deserve a better t piece head than someone who killed it on mythic. About equal we can have discussions but better sucks. Now obv. you can argue that statistically the mythic raider gets better gear, but again if I spend weeks instead of hours I want to be rewarded better everytime, not equal or less

[hulkgor]

Titanforge is, in other words, a reward that hops or skips, multiple difficulty levels. Imagining wq as 1, normal dungeon as 2, heroic dungeon as 3, and mythic 0 as a 4, getting an item reward of 4th level on a lvl 1 activity is wrong, and it just accelerates progression through the levels in a pointless and unappropriate fashion.

I dislike it. Sockets and Warforge already keep loot exciting (as it did on WoD), there's no need for multiple procs on top of procs, and i dislike the entire concept.

Glad they're removing it (or was it only for weapons? Not keeping track of BFA alpha datamine so far).

On a more particular note, i absolutely abhor titanforge on a raid\guild setting for two reasons, first, it can absolutely cause a lot of frustration and inequality between players and second, it actually 'forces' players to keep grinding lower difficulty content (in particular previous raids) in hopes of the jackpot proc on tier or trinkets or whatnot, yea, you're not "forced", but you risk falling behind if you don't, and on a progress raiding environment, that matters.

[kary]

Titanforge is, in other words, a reward that hops or skips, multiple difficulty levels. Imagining wq as 1, normal dungeon as 2, heroic dungeon as 3, and mythic 0 as a 4, getting an item reward of 4th level on a lvl 1 activity is wrong, and it just accelerates progression through the levels in a pointless and unappropriate fashion.

I dislike it. Sockets and Warforge already keep loot exciting (as it did on WoD), there's no need for multiple procs on top of procs, and i dislike the entire concept.

Glad they're removing it (or was it only for weapons? Not keeping track of BFA alpha datamine so far).

On a more particular note, i absolutely abhor titanforge on a raid\guild setting for two reasons, first, it can absolutely cause a lot of frustration and inequality between players and second, it actually 'forces' players to keep grinding lower difficulty content (in particular previous raids) in hopes of the jackpot proc on tier or trinkets or whatnot, yea, you're not "forced", but you risk falling behind if you don't, and on a progress raiding environment, that matters.

It doesn't really, though.
Getting a 960 tier item as a heroic raider isn't going to push you to do mythic. It's just something nice.
The mistake people make is hunting TF. You having a couple sick TF isn't going to magically put you in a better player bracket or something, it's very very pointless in the long run.
It ultimately boils down to choice; whether or not you choose to chase the dragon in a low difficulty or not. No heroic/mythic raider in their right mind is gonna be farming normal for hopes of a 15-30 tf. It's just not realistic.

[Donald Hellscream]

I don't like titanforging personally, not because it means johnny mcpleb who dies to every mechanic known to man can get a super powerful item through dumb luck but more because I feel it almost makes loot somewhat disappointing because you are always chasing that titanforged tag and subsequently everything below that suddenly becomes much less exciting.
While I personally don't chase the titanforge tag I do feel a slight bit of disappointment if I see an item upgrading only to see it either roll a tertiary stat/socket or "merely" warforge and that feeling really takes some of the joy out of getting a new piece of kit for me.

That is one of the reasons that I am glad weapons won't be able to titanforge in BFA, the other reason being that weapons have a much larger impact overall than say a chest piece have so if a weapon could titanforge it would create a power gap between players that can't necessarily be bridged by skill, say if Johnny mctopdeeps and Johnny mcpleb had similar gear setup but Johnny mcpleb had a weapon 60 item levels higher than that of Johnny mctopdeeps then it would be much harder for Johnny mctopdeeps to perform aswell in terms of damage on the merit of him having a much weaker weapon. Now of course not all classes scale the same with weapon damage but lets assume we are talking about a class that scales exceptionally well with weapon damage.

Personal issues with Titanforging aside it hasn't spawned the thousands of "Lfr heroes" running around in full 980 gear that people often seem to claim so in the big picture it really isn't as big a tempest as people make it out to be.

[Nitros14]

Except it doesn't. At raid level it adds a tiny bit of quite predictable variance. The negligible 'tuning challenge' it adds is completely overshadowed by unexpected tactics and class sacking.

The proof is in the raids. Legion raids have all been poorly tuned.

I do not think Blizzard suddenly forgot how to tune raids after being quite good at it for a while.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

My friends, this is my jealousy argument writ large.
"No one cares about other people's TF stuff."
Proceeds to delineate a conversation about someone commenting on another's lack of titanforged gear.

If it wasn't obvious enough for you, what you quoted was supposed to be a monologue, not a conversation between two people.

TFing devalues your own gear, leaving a sour feeling every time you get a good item, because you know it could have been even better if it was TFd.

[msdos]

Still complaining for the sake of complaining in here, I see.

The TF system hasn't negatively affected my life or my guild's life, nor have I gotten extremely lucky with it. I guess a 970 item every week is too over the top for people to handle?

Also, fyi, if that gear piece doesn't say Mythic on it, then it doesn't matter if it's ilvl 1020, you aren't getting shown the same respect as someone who's gear reads Mythic.