Tinker Class Concept 2018 (long)

[Teriz]

Oh, come on Teriz you don't need a vehicle to self-destruct. We've seen the mechanic elsewhere. I mean, it could even be used by Unholy Death Knights for their Abomination! It sure does seem unfair to rob Death Knights of an ability they could have for a class that doesn't exist.

The Tinker would require a vehicle to self-destruct. Additionally, I wouldn't consider blowing up your abomination to be quite the same as ejecting from a mech and having it explode, greatly reducing your abilities (pilot mode) until you can resummon the mech again.

That said, my point earlier was that such a mechanic currently doesn't exist within the class lineup, and since no class is performing mounted combat, it would be a pretty unique mechanic.

[Ielenia]

I think they would. Mainly because Gnomes and Goblins haven't had the chance to be a popular race because there's no classes that really reflect their culture. Give them an interesting and cool class to play as exclusively that fits their races, and I think their population numbers would rise precipitously.

Or said numbers might not raise up much, and cause the class to become less popular than even monks. It can easily go either way. Listen, of all the reasons gnomes and goblins aren't popular, their lore (or lack thereof) is one of the least popular reasons. It's more about the races' models, voice acting, emotes, their size, etc. Not having a technological class is one of the bottom reasons, if it's even a reason at all.

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The Tinker would require a vehicle to self-destruct. Additionally, I wouldn't consider blowing up your abomination to be quite the same as ejecting from a mech and having it explode, greatly reducing your abilities (pilot mode) until you can resummon the mech again.

And now your tinker is supposed to be such a multi-billionaire that would make Trade Princes look like ragged street beggars by comparison, to be able to afford so many mechs that he can blow them all up willy-nilly? Can't you see how absurd that concept is?

[Teriz]

Or said numbers might not raise up much, and cause the class to become less popular than even monks. It can easily go either way. Listen, of all the reasons gnomes and goblins aren't popular, their lore (or lack thereof) is one of the least popular reasons. It's more about the races' models, voice acting, emotes, their size, etc. Not having a technological class is one of the bottom reasons, if it's even a reason at all.

I didn't say it was their lore. I said its their lack of class choices that fit their race. If you look at what people play as, it's mostly classes that match the race's culture. Most Hunters, Demon Hunters, and Druids are Night Elves for example. The majority of Monks are Pandaren. Why? Because major Night Elf lore figures are Druids, Demon Hunters, and Hunters.

The major Goblin and Gnome lore figures tend to be Tinkers. Both Goblin and Gnome racial leaders fight inside mechs. The Gnome racial leader is a Tinker and fights in a mech. Gazlowe is a Tinker and fights in a mech. That option simply isn't in the class lineup.

To be completely honest, I don't have any Goblin or Gnome characters on my account. That would instantly change with a Tinker class entering the game.

And now your tinker is supposed to be such a multi-billionaire that would make Trade Princes look like ragged street beggars by comparison, to be able to afford so many mechs that he can blow them all up willy-nilly? Can't you see how absurd that concept is?

Doesn't the Goblin player character start off as very rich?

Anyway, do you have a source to how much it costs to build a mech in WoW? Please share, I'd love to see it.

[Ielenia]

I didn't say it was their lore. I said its their lack of class choices that fit their race.

I just said that's one of the least offered reasons. If it's a reason at all.

If you look at what people play as, it's mostly classes that match the race's culture. Most Hunters, Demon Hunters, and Druids are Night Elves for example.

Demon hunters in the Alliance can only be night elves. The same was true for druids until the Cataclysm expansion. As for Hunters, unless you could point to a definitive reason why the majority of their population in the Alliance are night elves that points to the class fitting the race's culture, it is meaningless information. Their popularity could be because night elves have a good aggro-drop racial in the form of 'shadowmeld', it could be because they like their bow animations, and people might like the aesthetic of the night elves more than they like the other races, too.

The majority of Monks are Pandaren. Why?

The best information I could find about it is the 'WoW Census' website, and while not exactly the most trustworthy site, it's the only thing we got right now, so... yeah. On the alliance side, pandaren make up for 19% of the monks, while humans make up for 16%. The majority, yes, but that's like saying in a group of 11 people, 6 are the majority. On the Horde side, things are different: 16% of the monks are pandaren, while 18% are Blood Elves. Pandaren are not the majority of monks in the Horde side, which further invalidates your argument.

Because major Night Elf lore figures are Druids, Demon Hunters, and Hunters.

Again, demon hunters in the alliance can only be night elves. Using them in your argument is quite dishonest. And when the "important lore figures" were created, the only race that could be druids in the Alliance was the night elves. As for Hunters, well, you got Rexxar, an orc. What's the "important lore figure" for hunters in the Alliance?

The major Goblin and Gnome lore figures tend to be Tinkers.

Or, more exactly, engineers.

The Gnome racial leader is a Tinker and fights in a mech.

Engineer. And guess what? Engineers can build mechs.

Gazlowe is a Tinker and fights in a mech.

Engineer. And guess what? Engineers can build mechs.

You only call them 'tinkers' because it fits your narrative. Call them for what they are. "Ah, but Gelbin's title is 'High Tinker'!" So what? Anduin's title is 'High King'. Does that mean we can ask for a 'king' class?

Doesn't the Goblin player character start off as very rich?

Doesn't the goblin player character loses everything not even half-way into the starting zones' experience?

Anyway, do you have a source to how much it costs to build a mech in WoW? Please share, I'd love to see it.

Inference of logic. I have no idea how much it costs to build a Maglev train, but I surely won't claim it costs roughly as much as a steam train. You're going against common logic, so it's up to you to show how affordable mass-producing such complex and bulky machines is, in your argument.

[Teriz]

Demon hunters in the Alliance can only be night elves. The same was true for druids until the Cataclysm expansion. As for Hunters, unless you could point to a definitive reason why the majority of their population in the Alliance are night elves that points to the class fitting the race's culture, it is meaningless information. Their popularity could be because night elves have a good aggro-drop racial in the form of 'shadowmeld', it could be because they like their bow animations, and people might like the aesthetic of the night elves more than they like the other races, too.

Blood Elves are a more popular race than Night Elves. Wouldn't there be more Blood Elf Demon Hunters than NE Demon Hunters due sheerly to the races' higher popularity?

What could possibly make Night Elf Demon Hunter population higher than the Blood Elf population? Could it be that the Demon Hunter lore figure looks like this:



The same applies to Druids. The main lore figure for Druids is a Night Elf, so people choosing to play a Druid are more than likely going to choose a Druid because they want to be like that character.

Tyrande Whisperwind despite being a Priestess also is depicted with a bow, and her incarnations in WC3 and HotS had her using bow and arrow attacks. There was also the popular Huntress and Archer units from WC3. Additionally WoW art heavily associates Night Elves with Hunters. For example:



Here's some more:
https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb...r-1600x900.jpg
http://img9.mmo.mmo4arab.com/wow/1_2...hunter_550.jpg
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets...jpg?1412135753

Gee, I wonder why so many Hunter players want to be Night Elves.....

So the top three classes for NE are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters.

The three main NE lore figures in Warcraft are Illidan (Demon Hunter), Malfurion (Druid), and Tyrande (Hunter/Priest hybrid).

Interesting....

The best information I could find about it is the 'WoW Census' website, and while not exactly the most trustworthy site, it's the only thing we got right now, so... yeah. On the alliance side, pandaren make up for 19% of the monks, while humans make up for 16%. The majority, yes, but that's like saying in a group of 11 people, 6 are the majority. On the Horde side, things are different: 16% of the monks are pandaren, while 18% are Blood Elves. Pandaren are not the majority of monks in the Horde side, which further invalidates your argument.

Actually it doesn't invalidate my argument, since the Pandaren population is split between two factions, and the Alliance Pandaren Monk population is still higher than the Blood Elf Monk population. Pandaren are one of the least played classes in the game. Blood Elves are by far the highest. What does it say when the lowest racial population has more Monks than the highest?

Again, demon hunters in the alliance can only be night elves. Using them in your argument is quite dishonest. And when the "important lore figures" were created, the only race that could be druids in the Alliance was the night elves. As for Hunters, well, you got Rexxar, an orc. What's the "important lore figure" for hunters in the Alliance?

Rexxar is an Orc/Ogre hybrid. Tyrande would be the important lore figure for Hunters in the Alliance.

But speaking of Orcs, the most popular classes among Orcs are Warriors (Garrosh, Saurfang) and Shaman (Thrall).

Surprise, surprise.

Or, more exactly, engineers.

Engineer. And guess what? Engineers can build mechs.

Engineer. And guess what? Engineers can build mechs.

But they can't fight inside those mechs. The Goblin and Gnome racial leaders can. In both starter zones Goblin and Gnome players are exposed to mech-based combat, but can't participate in it. Even if you want to be stupid and include Reeves in this argument, what exactly is a Gnome and Goblin player doing in the 100+ levels it takes to get to use Reeves on Broken Shore? You certainly aren't fighting inside a Mech like Gelbin or Gazlowe for those 100+ levels.

You only call them 'tinkers' because it fits your narrative. Call them for what they are. "Ah, but Gelbin's title is 'High Tinker'!" So what? Anduin's title is 'High King'. Does that mean we can ask for a 'king' class?

Gelben also built this;



So him being "High Tinker" isn't just a title.

I'm not aware of a WC3 hero or fantasy class called "King". I am aware of a WC3 hero unit called the Tinker who could enter and exit mech mode like a Druid could change forms. I'm also aware of various fantasy classes that use technology as a weapon.

Doesn't the goblin player character loses everything not even half-way into the starting zones' experience?

Inference of logic. I have no idea how much it costs to build a Maglev train, but I surely won't claim it costs roughly as much as a steam train. You're going against common logic, so it's up to you to show how affordable mass-producing such complex and bulky machines is, in your argument.

In the film "Iron Man" Tony Stark built a mech suit from junk and scrap some terrorist gave him in a cave.

How much you think that cost him to build?

[Deleted]

LoL! Sure you did.

And you wonder why we are irritated by tinker threads. Maybe if tinker fans acted like adults we wouldn't get tourette every time a tinker thread pops up.

As for the Undermine expansion....it will never be a thing for the reasons I have already listed. Blizzard could Goblin and Gnome lore in the future, but unless you are a night elf, an orc or a draenei, you really don't have much chance to get any major lore development for your race. I guess you might get lucky if you are a human, but otherwise....nah.

You need to look at how and what is released by Blizzard and base your concepts on that.

[Ielenia]

Blood Elves are a more popular race than Night Elves. Wouldn't there be more Blood Elf Demon Hunters than NE Demon Hunters due sheerly to the races' higher popularity?

2% difference in the population, according to that website. Hardly makes for any difference.

What could possibly make Night Elf Demon Hunter population higher than the Blood Elf population? Could it be that the Demon Hunter lore figure looks like this:

Maybe. Maybe not. To assert either way is dishonest. For all we know, it could be simply because DHs have been associated with night elves since Warcraft 3.

The same applies to Druids. The main lore figure for Druids is a Night Elf, so people choosing to play a Druid are more than likely going to choose a Druid because they want to be like that character.

Same as above. Druids were 100% a night elf unit type.

Tyrande Whisperwind despite being a Priestess also is depicted with a bow, and her incarnations in WC3 and HotS had her using bow and arrow attacks. There was also the popular Huntress and Archer units from WC3.

Tyrande is, and always has always been a priestess. Giving her a bow does not make her a hunter, no more than giving a sword to a mage makes him a warrior.

Additionally WoW art heavily associates Night Elves with Hunters. For example:

You said "important lore figures". Please stick to the rules you set.

So the top three classes for NE are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters.

The first one is because, on the Alliance-side, it's the only race that can pick that class. The same was applied to druids until CAtaclysm.

The three main NE lore figures in Warcraft are Illidan (Demon Hunter), Malfurion (Druid), and Tyrande (Hunter/Priest hybrid).

Simple coincidence. Let's look at the other classes, shall we? Let's! The main lore figure for warlocks is an orc, yet human warlocks outnumber orc warlocks by a factor of 3. The main lore figure for shamans is an orc, but draenei shamans' population is half times bigger than the population of orc shamans. The main lore figure for rogues is an orc (Garona Halforcen) yet blood elves and humans vastly outnumber the population of orc rogues. The main lore figures for priests are Tyrande and Velen, yet the number of human and blood elf priests, again, vastly outnumber the night elf and draenei priests.

Rexxar is an Orc/Ogre hybrid. Tyrande would be the important lore figure for Hunters in the Alliance.

Not only Tyrande isn't even mentioned in the Gamepedia's page for hunters, but she is also listed as a 'notable priest' in the priest page of that same website.

But speaking of Orcs, the most popular classes among Orcs are Warriors (Garrosh, Saurfang) and Shaman (Thrall).

Surprise, surprise.

Why are warlocks so 'middle-of-the-road' in terms of representation for orcs, considering they have a powerful lore figure (Gul'dan)? Why, despite having such important lore figures in warrior and shamans, humans and draenei outnumber the orcs in those classes, respective?

But they can't fight inside those mechs.

Yes, they can.

Gelben also built this;

So him being "High Tinker" isn't just a title.

Yes, it's a title of the meritocracy the gnomes govern themselves with. He is an engineer.

In the film "Iron Man" Tony Stark built a mech suit from junk and scrap some terrorist gave him in a cave.

A suit that barely worked for a few minutes before breaking down into pieces.

How much you think that cost him to build?

Ask yourself: how much did it cost to get those missiles and other equipment that Tony Stark salvaged to make the armor?

[wholol]

Shipped this idea years ago, people always refuse to accept sound arguments because they just don't see themselves playing it, they'd rather back up any other ( necromancer etc) random class that they would prefer to play rather than thinking about what is really missing in the game.

I totally hope they release the tinker class, it's overdue tbh.

[Lochton]

To be honest, always saw tinkers as a 3 or 4 specc class. Though, @Teriz , your ideas are great too ^^

3 - Specc:
Mechanics (Tank with suit (With a 'Pet' function to have the suit as a 'follower' when not tanking) source is steam)
Demolition ((Pyrotechnics) DPS - mid range to melee - Fire and Explosions - Rocket Fuel)
Alchemy (Heal - Spray, vials and bots - Chemical Enhancer)

4 - Specc:
Mechanics (Tank with suit (With a 'Pet' function to have the suit as a 'follower' when not tanking) source is steam)
Demolition ((Pyrotechnics) DPS - mid range to melee - Fire and Explosions - Rocket fuel)
Inventor (DPS Ranged - Rays, Beams, Bots - Electro-surge)
Alchemy (Heal - Spray, vials and bots - Chemical Enhancer)

[Teriz]

2% difference in the population, according to that website. Hardly makes for any difference.

And there's an 8% difference between NE Demon Hunters and BE Demon Hunters.

Maybe. Maybe not. To assert either way is dishonest. For all we know, it could be simply because DHs have been associated with night elves since Warcraft 3.

And why would they be associated with Night Elves?

Same as above. Druids were 100% a night elf unit type.

Gee, thanks for making my argument for me.

Tyrande is, and always has always been a priestess. Giving her a bow does not make her a hunter, no more than giving a sword to a mage makes him a warrior.

In both her WC3 and HotS incarnations, she has more Hunter and Druid abilities than Priest abilities.

You said "important lore figures". Please stick to the rules you set.

Which is exactly what Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan are.

The first one is because, on the Alliance-side, it's the only race that can pick that class. The same was applied to druids until CAtaclysm.

Except there's MORE Blood Elf players in the game than Night Elves.

Simple coincidence. Let's look at the other classes, shall we? Let's! 1.The main lore figure for warlocks is an orc, yet human warlocks outnumber orc warlocks by a factor of 3.

Gul'dan was a WC2 character who had zero presence in WC3 and WoW until the tail end of WoD, and he died in the middle of Legion.

2. The main lore figure for shamans is an orc, but draenei shamans' population is half times bigger than the population of orc shamans.

Yeah because the Shaman population among the Horde is divided among 4 races. The Alliance on has two options. Before Cataclysm Draenei were the only option, while the Horde had 3.

3. The main lore figure for rogues is an orc (Garona Halforcen) yet blood elves and humans vastly outnumber the population of orc rogues.

Another character who had close to zero presence in WC3 and WoW. Valeera Sanguinar has been around more.

Also this helped;

4.The main lore figures for priests are Tyrande and Velen, yet the number of human and blood elf priests, again, vastly outnumber the night elf and draenei priests.

Again, Tyrande has mostly Hunter abilities in all of her playable incarnations (except for Hearthstone). Velen wasn't a WC3 character, sporadically appears in WoW and has never been playable.

Not only Tyrande isn't even mentioned in the Gamepedia's page for hunters, but she is also listed as a 'notable priest' in the priest page of that same website.

Again, look at her playable forms. Many of her abilities have popped up in the Hunter class. She is also well known to carry a bow.

Why are warlocks so 'middle-of-the-road' in terms of representation for orcs, considering they have a powerful lore figure (Gul'dan)? Why, despite having such important lore figures in warrior and shamans, humans and draenei outnumber the orcs in those classes, respective?

See above. Gul'Dan was absent from WC3 and WoW until WoD. WoW had been around for 10 years by that point.

Yes, they can.

Please explain how you can fight inside the Sky Golem, Lightforged Golem, and the Fel Annihilator.

Yes, it's a title of the meritocracy the gnomes govern themselves with. He is an engineer.

"High Tinker" is a title you earn by building the best inventions among the gnomes.

I wonder why they chose "High Tinker" instead of "High Engineer".......

Ask yourself: how much did it cost to get those missiles and other equipment that Tony Stark salvaged to make the armor?

He used the missile to build the Arc Reactor. The mech itself was built from junk and old computer equipment.

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Shipped this idea years ago, people always refuse to accept sound arguments because they just don't see themselves playing it, they'd rather back up any other ( necromancer etc) random class that they would prefer to play rather than thinking about what is really missing in the game.

I totally hope they release the tinker class, it's overdue tbh.

Agreed on multiple levels.

Heck, we now have an argument that Tinkers don't make sense because the mechs would cost too much to build.

You seriously can't make this up.

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To be honest, always saw tinkers as a 3 or 4 specc class. Though, @Teriz , your ideas are great too ^^

3 - Specc:
Mechanics (Tank with suit (With a 'Pet' function to have the suit as a 'follower' when not tanking) source is steam)
Demolition ((Pyrotechnics) DPS - mid range to melee - Fire and Explosions - Rocket Fuel)
Alchemy (Heal - Spray, vials and bots - Chemical Enhancer)

4 - Specc:
Mechanics (Tank with suit (With a 'Pet' function to have the suit as a 'follower' when not tanking) source is steam)
Demolition ((Pyrotechnics) DPS - mid range to melee - Fire and Explosions - Rocket fuel)
Inventor (DPS Ranged - Rays, Beams, Bots - Electro-surge)
Alchemy (Heal - Spray, vials and bots - Chemical Enhancer)

I really like these Gehco. I might use one for a 4 Tinker spec. Possibly a ranged DPS spec that only calls the mech down when it builds up its resource.

[Ielenia]

And there's an 8% difference between NE Demon Hunters and BE Demon Hunters.

Again, not a significant difference. 56/44 is not a significant difference.

And why would they be associated with Night Elves?

Have you played Warcraft 3?

Gee, thanks for making my argument for me.

Not really. The WC3 tinker hero never appeared in any campaign in the game, never had any development at all to make people get attached to the character or the concept.

In both her WC3 and HotS incarnations, she has more Hunter and Druid abilities than Priest abilities.

And yet in WoW (which, you know, is only the game that really matters), she is a priestess, not a hunter. By the way, just FYI? in Hearthstone? She is a priest avatar, not a hunter avatar.

Which is exactly what Tyrande, Malfurion, and Illidan are.

You do know you resorted to using random pictures of random night elf hunters in a discussion about "important lore figures" of the hunter class, right?

Except there's MORE Blood Elf players in the game than Night Elves.

Irrelevant. Your exact words were: "So the top three classes for NE are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters." You said nothing about blood elves. You're trying to add red herrings to confuse people.

Gul'dan was a WC2 character who had zero presence in WC3 and WoW until the tail end of WoD, and he died in the middle of Legion.

Still a Warcraft game. Also, you see mentions of him in WC3. It was the Skull of Gul'Dan that gave Illidan his demonic form. You also see echoes of Gul'Dan in Burning Crusade, as well, and in several other mentions throughout the game. Also, he was the Warlock avatar for Hearthstone, half a year prior to WoD.

Yeah because the Shaman population among the Horde is divided among 4 races. The Alliance on has two options. Before Cataclysm Draenei were the only option, while the Horde had 3.

Irrelevant. Because Orcs are still not the top race for Warriors (because Saurfang) and they're even beat by blood elves and forsaken in the Warlock class population (because Gul'Dan).

Another character who had close to zero presence in WC3 and WoW. Valeera Sanguinar has been around more.

Garona existed since Warcraft 1, and had quite enough lore throughout the years. Valeera showed up during Cataclysm, and then... nothing else about her. Two expansions after the introduction of blood elves, mind you.

Also this helped;

Unless you're going to claim rogues were introduced to WoW when that picture was released (which would be a wrong assertion, just FYI), that's an invalid argument. Also, between random pictures from random artists, and the universe's lore, people are driven less by pictures than lore in their decisions.

Again, Tyrande has mostly Hunter abilities in all of her playable incarnations (except for Hearthstone). Velen wasn't a WC3 character, sporadically appears in WoW and has never been playable.

What "other games" like Heroes of the Storm do with an already established character is irrelevant. What matters what she is in the canon universe, and he is a priestess. Not a huntress.

Again, look at her playable forms. Many of her abilities have popped up in the Hunter class. She is also well known to carry a bow.

... Trueshot Aura. And... that's it. Starfall went to druids. Let's take a look at HotS: Hunter's Mark... ok. Light of Elune: no. Sentinel: no. Lunar flare: no. Shadowstalk: no. Starfall: no.

See above. Gul'Dan was absent from WC3 and WoW until WoD. WoW had been around for 10 years by that point.

See above. Gul'Dan has been mentioned many times throughout WC3 and WoW in those ten years, since classic up until now.

Please explain how you can fight inside the Sky Golem, Lightforged Golem, and the Fel Annihilator.

Reeves combat module. Also, why don't you tell me why can't we fight in the exact same golem we use to fly around in Argus and are able to shoot blasts powerful enough to destroy entire Legion ships?

"High Tinker" is a title you earn by building the best inventions among the gnomes.

It's still a political title. Why do orcs call their leaders "warchief" and not "king"? Perhaps each culture have different ways to name their leaders?

He used the missile to build the Arc Reactor. The mech itself was built from junk and old computer equipment.

I'm pretty sure I see him dismantling those missiles at least to use as plating. Also, where do you think the power came for the suit?

Heck, we now have an argument that Tinkers don't make sense because the mechs would cost too much to build.

You seriously can't make this up.

Yeah, how dare people use logic and common sense in their arguments. How dare they.

[Lochton]

I really like these Gehco. I might use one for a 4 Tinker spec. Possibly a ranged DPS spec that only calls the mech down when it builds up its resource.

Though would by my idea, be the inventor. Always had the idea of having a selection in the talent of picking one of three Mehc-techs to jump in for X time.

[Teriz]

Again, not a significant difference. 56/44 is not a significant difference.

Yet it IS a difference.

Have you played Warcraft 3?


Not really. The WC3 tinker hero never appeared in any campaign in the game, never had any development at all to make people get attached to the character or the concept.

Because it was introduced at the tail end of the FT expansion. WoW came out 6 months after the Tinker was introduced to WC3. The majority of Tinker development has occurred in the years since WC3, after Blizzard attached Goblin and Gnome races to the concept.

And yet in WoW (which, you know, is only the game that really matters), she is a priestess, not a hunter. By the way, just FYI? in Hearthstone? She is a priest avatar, not a hunter avatar.

She carries a bow in WoW as well;




Additionally, here is official Blizzard artwork showcasing the characters in their youth;



With Tyrande carrying a bow and wearing NE female Hunter armor.

Gee, I wonder what the most popular NE classes are.....

You do know you resorted to using random pictures of random night elf hunters in a discussion about "important lore figures" of the hunter class, right?

I did that to show you that in official art, the Night Elf hunter tends to be shown more than any other race. It's partially because of the NE PotM, archer, and Huntress units.

Irrelevant. Your exact words were: "So the top three classes for NE are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters." You said nothing about blood elves. You're trying to add red herrings to confuse people.

You're saying that NE DHs outnumber BE DHs because they're the only DHs on the Alliance side. That doesn't matter because the BE population is higher than the NE population regardless.

Still a Warcraft game. Also, you see mentions of him in WC3. It was the Skull of Gul'Dan that gave Illidan his demonic form. You also see echoes of Gul'Dan in Burning Crusade, as well, and in several other mentions throughout the game. Also, he was the Warlock avatar for Hearthstone, half a year prior to WoD.

Yeah, mere mentions and a skull that Illidan holds. That's going to fire up Orc players into rolling a Warlock.

Also Hearthstone released in 2014. Warlords was already out by then, and again, WoW was nearly a decade old at that point.

Irrelevant. Because Orcs are still not the top race for Warriors (because Saurfang) and they're even beat by blood elves and forsaken in the Warlock class population (because Gul'Dan).

Not irrelevant. In WC3 The Shaman lore was already divided among Tauren, Trolls, and Orcs, so when WoW released, fans of the class also divided themselves among the three races, with Orcs still being the top race among the Horde thanks to Thrall. Draenei were the only Shaman on the Alliance for awhile, so that allowed them to outnumber the Horde races.

Garona existed since Warcraft 1, and had quite enough lore throughout the years. Valeera showed up during Cataclysm, and then... nothing else about her. Two expansions after the introduction of blood elves, mind you.

Where was Garona in WC3 and WoW? That's the difference. Also Valeera first appeared in WotLK.

Unless you're going to claim rogues were introduced to WoW when that picture was released (which would be a wrong assertion, just FYI), that's an invalid argument. Also, between random pictures from random artists, and the universe's lore, people are driven less by pictures than lore in their decisions.

That's official Blizzard art, not random fan art. Blizzard used that art for promotional material during TBC.

What "other games" like Heroes of the Storm do with an already established character is irrelevant. What matters what she is in the canon universe, and he is a priestess. Not a huntress.

Again, she's shown in WoW with a bow. I wasn't aware that Priests could carry a bow....

.. Trueshot Aura. And... that's it. Starfall went to druids. Let's take a look at HotS: Hunter's Mark... ok. Light of Elune: no. Sentinel: no. Lunar flare: no. Shadowstalk: no. Starfall: no.

Sentinel

See above. Gul'Dan has been mentioned many times throughout WC3 and WoW in those ten years, since classic up until now.

Again, being mentioned isn't the same as being seen and being played as. Consider that while Gul'Dan was being mentioned in WC3, people were playing as Demon Hunters, Druids, Paladins, and Shaman, building interest among players as WoW loomed on the horizon.

Reeves combat module.

So what are you doing for the first 99 levels of progression until you can use RCM?

Also, why don't you tell me why can't we fight in the exact same golem we use to fly around in Argus and are able to shoot blasts powerful enough to destroy entire Legion ships?

What?

It's still a political title. Why do orcs call their leaders "warchief" and not "king"? Perhaps each culture have different ways to name their leaders?

You do know that Gelbin beat out Thermaplugg for the title of High Tinker because he built better inventions right?

I'm pretty sure I see him dismantling those missiles at least to use as plating. Also, where do you think the power came for the suit?

So again, how much you think it cost him to dismantle a missile stolen by some terrorists?

Yeah, how dare people use logic and common sense in their arguments. How dare they.

Except your not using either.

- - - Updated - - -

Though would by my idea, be the inventor. Always had the idea of having a selection in the talent of picking one of three Mehc-techs to jump in for X time.

Yeah, I had the idea of a Tinker that uses gameplay similar to old Warlock Demonology where they build a resource, call down the mech for as long as the mech lasts, and then return to pilot mode. Level 100 talents would be different types of summoned mecha.

[Ielenia]

Yet it IS a difference.

Again, an insignificant difference.

Because it was introduced at the tail end of the FT expansion. WoW came out 6 months after the Tinker was introduced to WC3. The majority of Tinker development has occurred in the years since WC3, after Blizzard attached Goblin and Gnome races to the concept.

You mean, engineering? That's how the concept got developed.

She carries a bow in WoW as well;

Still a priest. She is a priest. You trying to argue she is a hunter is amusing, though.

Additionally, here is official Blizzard artwork showcasing the characters in their youth;

And Illidan used to be a very accomplished mage. Next?

I did that to show you that in official art, the Night Elf hunter tends to be shown more than any other race.

So you admit to using red herrings.

You're saying that NE DHs outnumber BE DHs because they're the only DHs on the Alliance side.

It's cute how you get lost in your own arguments. Your argument was:

So the top three classes for NE are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters.

And I simply pointed out that demon hunters are one of the 'top classes' for night elves because night elves are the only Alliance race that can be demon hunters. At no point I even mentioned blood elves.

Yeah, mere mentions and a skull that Illidan holds. That's going to fire up Orc players into rolling a Warlock.

It's becoming more and more obvious that you don't care for lore. Gul'dan has been mentioned many, many times, and always emphasized how powerful and how much of a threat he was.

Also Hearthstone released in 2014. Warlords was already out by then, and again, WoW was nearly a decade old at that point.

Hearthstone launched March 2014. Warlords of Draenor launched November 2014. Eight months after Hearthstone.

Not irrelevant. In WC3 The Shaman lore was already divided among Tauren, Trolls, and Orcs, so when WoW released, fans of the class also divided themselves among the three races, with Orcs still being the top race among the Horde thanks to Thrall. Draenei were the only Shaman on the Alliance for awhile, so that allowed them to outnumber the Horde races.

... Wasn't your point that "important lore figures" are an important factor in a class' popularity in a given race? Now you're downplaying your original argument by saying how "the lore was diluted among simple, unimportant common units".

Where was Garona in WC3 and WoW? That's the difference. Also Valeera first appeared in WotLK.

You don't care about lore, at all, right? You really don't care about the many mentions about her, and her importance in the lore of the game, how she killed Varian's father, etc.

That's official Blizzard art, not random fan art. Blizzard used that art for promotional material during TBC.

Still mostly irrelevant, as it's not an "important lore figure".

Again, she's shown in WoW with a bow. I wasn't aware that Priests could carry a bow....

I wasn't aware hunters could cast Moonfire and Starfall, and also could Cleave...

Sentinel

Does not fly in a straight line, damaging enemies along the way. By your rules, not the same thing. But even if I grant you that, that's only two, out of six abilities.

Again, being mentioned isn't the same as being seen and being played as. Consider that while Gul'Dan was being mentioned in WC3, people were playing as Demon Hunters, Druids, Paladins, and Shaman, building interest among players as WoW loomed on the horizon.

Being mentioned and shown the importance of the character is just as good, if not sometimes better than simply playing the character. It's still development, it's still building the character.

So what are you doing for the first 99 levels of progression until you can use RCM?

So now you're moving goalposts again?

What?

Lightforged Warframe. That's the exact same golem we use in some of the world quests in Argus. But we can't fight with it, despite the cannon on its left arm still being fully functional, as it can be seen in its 'mount special' animation.

You do know that Gelbin beat out Thermaplugg for the title of High Tinker because he built better inventions right?

And? Still makes the word 'tinker' just a title, not a class.

So again, how much you think it cost him to dismantle a missile stolen by some terrorists?

The tools were all provided to him by the terrorists. I imagine all those tools aren't cheap. On top of that, he took a long time building that single suit.

[Teriz]

Again, an insignificant difference.

In your opinion. It is a fact that there are more NE Demon Hunters, yet more BE players overall.

You mean, engineering? That's how the concept got developed.

No, the concept developed further because of Gelbin being called "High Tinker", Thermaplugg, Blackfuse, and Mekkatorque showing up in mech suits, and Gazlowe becoming a Tinker in HotS, and in WoW.

Still a priest. She is a priest. You trying to argue she is a hunter is amusing, though.

Yet the majority of her abilities show up in the Hunter class. Can you name any Priest abilities she posses in WoW or WC3?

And Illidan used to be a very accomplished mage. Next?

And Tyrande still carries a bow and shoots arrows.

It's cute how you get lost in your own arguments. Your argument was:

And I simply pointed out that demon hunters are one of the 'top classes' for night elves because night elves are the only Alliance race that can be demon hunters. At no point I even mentioned blood elves.

Oh so you made an irrelevant argument.

Gotcha.

It's becoming more and more obvious that you don't care for lore. Gul'dan has been mentioned many, many times, and always emphasized how powerful and how much of a threat he was.

And again, being mentioned isn't the same as seeing and playing as that character. By the time WoW released, people were interested in being characters similar to Thrall, Malfurion, Illidan, and Arthas.

Hearthstone launched March 2014. Warlords of Draenor launched November 2014. Eight months after Hearthstone.

My mistake. Doesn't' change the fact that WoW was almost a decade old by that point.

... Wasn't your point that "important lore figures" are an important factor in a class' popularity in a given race? Now you're downplaying your original argument by saying how "the lore was diluted among simple, unimportant common units".

No, I'm saying that Horde Shaman population is divided, while Alliance Shaman population is concentrated. There's still more Orc Shaman on the Horde because of Thrall.

You don't care about lore, at all, right? You really don't care about the many mentions about her, and her importance in the lore of the game, how she killed Varian's father, etc.

See above. The mentioning of a character isn't as important as seeing and playing as the character.

Still mostly irrelevant, as it's not an "important lore figure".

Actually its quite relevant since there were no major Rogue lore figures coming out of WC3 or Vanilla WoW. In that vacuum official art like that pushed players to choose what race they wanted a class to be.

I wasn't aware hunters could cast Moonfire and Starfall, and also could Cleave...

No, but Hunters have Trueshot Aura, Sentinel, and can actually use a bow.

Any Priest abilities to list?

Does not fly in a straight line, damaging enemies along the way. By your rules, not the same thing. But even if I grant you that, that's only two, out of six abilities.

The Hunter ability would be the WC3 incarnation of the spell.

And again, we shouldn't forget that Hunters can also fire magical arrows.

Being mentioned and shown the importance of the character is just as good, if not sometimes better than simply playing the character. It's still development, it's still building the character.

So do you think players prefer Varok Saurfang or Broxigar Saurfang?

So now you're moving goalposts again?

I mentioned that at the beginning of this argument. You keep ignoring it because it shatters your argument.

Let's try this again: What are you doing for the 99 levels before you're able to obtain RCM? You're certainly not fighting inside a mech.

Lightforged Warframe. That's the exact same golem we use in some of the world quests in Argus. But we can't fight with it, despite the cannon on its left arm still being fully functional, as it can be seen in its 'mount special' animation.

Yeah because it's a mount. What's your point?

And? Still makes the word 'tinker' just a title, not a class.

So quick question: What do you have to do to be considered a "Tinker", much less "High Tinker"?

The tools were all provided to him by the terrorists. I imagine all those tools aren't cheap. On top of that, he took a long time building that single suit.

I'm pretty sure they stole the tools, along with the weapons. Last I checked, stolen items tend to be pretty cheap for the thief that stole them.

[Kiradyn]

Shipped this idea years ago, people always refuse to accept sound arguments because they just don't see themselves playing it, they'd rather back up any other ( necromancer etc) random class that they would prefer to play rather than thinking about what is really missing in the game.

I totally hope they release the tinker class, it's overdue tbh.

Always fun to hear how Tinker won't be a class because we don't want to hurt Engineering, but we can totally obliterate the Death Knight class for a Necromancer.

[Ielenia]

In your opinion. It is a fact that there are more NE Demon Hunters, yet more BE players overall.

Again, it's a meaningless fact. So what if we have such a minuscule population difference?

No, the concept developed further because of Gelbin being called "High Tinker", Thermaplugg, Blackfuse, and Mekkatorque showing up in mech suits, and Gazlowe becoming a Tinker in HotS, and in WoW.

And it was developed through engineering as we're given mechs and other technological gadgets, and engineers even 'tinker'.

Yet the majority of her abilities show up in the Hunter class. Can you name any Priest abilities she posses in WoW or WC3?

... What? No, they don't. Two out of four (from WC3) is not "the majority". 2 out of 6 (from HotS) is not "majority".

And Tyrande still carries a bow and shoots arrows.

And Anduin now carries a two-handed sword and wears plate armor. Yet he is a priest. The point is: that's a meaningless argument. NPCs don't need to reflect classes 1:1. I mean, before all this 'Go'el' nonsense, Thrall wore plate amor, which shamans cannot wear.

Oh so you made an irrelevant argument.

Gotcha.

No, I just refuted one of your irrelevant arguments: to claim Demon Hunter are a popular class for the night elves is meaningless because, in the Alliance, they'er the only race that can be of that class, so, logically, that class would have a big representation in the race's listing.

And again, being mentioned isn't the same as seeing and playing as that character.

Yes, it can be. Because Gul'Dan, and the effect of his actions were quite impacting in the world. Felwood is what it is because of him. He is mentioned throughout the game in all its 10+ years of life.

No, I'm saying that Horde Shaman population is divided, while Alliance Shaman population is concentrated. There's still more Orc Shaman on the Horde because of Thrall.

It's amusing that this argument of yours completely dismantles one of your previous arguments, about Demon Hunters being popular among night elves, since draenei shaman population vastly outnumber the 2nd most famous class, paladin, despite not only having no "important lore figure" in the shaman class, but also having draenei paladins advertised everywhere, from the box art to the opening cinematic.

No, but Hunters have Trueshot Aura, Sentinel, and can actually use a bow.

Any Priest abilities to list?

Why don't you create an online petition to demand Blizzard to change Tyrande from a "Priestess of Elune" to a "Huntress of Elune" and see where that gets you. Also, for someone so attached to this idea of "Gelbin's title is 'High Tinker', that's evidence he's a tinker!", don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to say Tyrande is a hunter despite her title being High Priestess of Elune.

The Hunter ability would be the WC3 incarnation of the spell.

I want you to think about what you just wrote: you're claiming two spells... with different names... and different functionalities... are the same spells. Is that it? If you say 'yes', then you're being a hypocrite.

So do you think players prefer Varok Saurfang or Broxigar Saurfang?

Solely depends on the development given. A character can just "be there" for ten years, and still get less development than a character that never showed up but got mentioned once in a blue moon.

I mentioned that at the beginning of this argument. You keep ignoring it because it shatters your argument.

Let's try this again: What are you doing for the 99 levels before you're able to obtain RCM? You're certainly not fighting inside a mech.

Keep playing the game as normal. Classes don't start with their entire kit at level one. For example, shamans only get their ability Ascendance at level 100.

Yeah because it's a mount. What's your point?

My point is that such will be the same fate of those "tinker mechs". The Lightforged Warframe it is a fully-functional mech suit, fully capable of shooting through its cannon, yet it doesn't, because it's just a mount. Also, all those dragon mounts, why can't they breathe on my enemies? It makes no sense from a lore standpoint, but it does from a game standpoint. That means it's highly unlikely we'll see a class piloting personal mechs into battle.

So quick question: What do you have to do to be considered a "Tinker", much less "High Tinker"?

Just go to an NPC and learn engineering. Instant tinker. 'High Tinker', on the other hand? You gotta become an NPC first.

I'm pretty sure they stole the tools, along with the weapons. Last I checked, stolen items tend to be pretty cheap for the thief that stole them.

... So your 'tinker' is nothing but a rogue with the engineering profession?

[Teriz]

Again, it's a meaningless fact. So what if we have such a minuscule population difference?

Why do you think there would be more NE Demon Hunters than BE Demon Hunters if BE are the more popular race?

And it was developed through engineering as we're given mechs and other technological gadgets, and engineers even 'tinker'.

We weren't given mechs in Engineering until the end of MoP, and there hasn't been a mech given to Engineering since. In fact, there's more mech mounts available outside of Engineering than within it.

... What? No, they don't. Two out of four (from WC3) is not "the majority". 2 out of 6 (from HotS) is not "majority".

So again, how many Priest abilities are found within Tyrande's various ability kits?

And Anduin now carries a two-handed sword and wears plate armor. Yet he is a priest. The point is: that's a meaningless argument. NPCs don't need to reflect classes 1:1. I mean, before all this 'Go'el' nonsense, Thrall wore plate amor, which shamans cannot wear.

Yeah you missed the point entirely.

If you like Tyrande, and want to emulate the character, which class are you going to pick? The Priest class where none of her abilities exist, or the Hunter class where some of her abilities exist?

No, I just refuted one of your irrelevant arguments: to claim Demon Hunter are a popular class for the night elves is meaningless because, in the Alliance, they'er the only race that can be of that class, so, logically, that class would have a big representation in the race's listing.

And you missed the point again.

Night Elves can choose from 9 different classes. The top three classes of that nine are Druids, Demon Hunters, and Hunters.

Why out of 9 choices are those three classes the top three?

It's amusing that this argument of yours completely dismantles one of your previous arguments, about Demon Hunters being popular among night elves, since draenei shaman population vastly outnumber the 2nd most famous class, paladin, despite not only having no "important lore figure" in the shaman class, but also having draenei paladins advertised everywhere, from the box art to the opening cinematic.

Actually Akama was a Draenei lore figure from WC3 who was a Shaman, and there was plenty of official art that showed the Draenei as a Shaman. Further, the Draenei Shaman were unique among the Alliance while Draenei Paladin had to compete with Human Paladin, the latter of which was far more popular due to the strong lore tied to Human Paladin in WC3 and WoW.

Why don't you create an online petition to demand Blizzard to change Tyrande from a "Priestess of Elune" to a "Huntress of Elune" and see where that gets you. Also, for someone so attached to this idea of "Gelbin's title is 'High Tinker', that's evidence he's a tinker!", don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to say Tyrande is a hunter despite her title being High Priestess of Elune.

All you had to say was this:

"Tyrande has no abilities that appear within the Priest class."

I want you to think about what you just wrote: you're claiming two spells... with different names... and different functionalities... are the same spells. Is that it? If you say 'yes', then you're being a hypocrite.

Actually what I said was a misquote. Sentinel was a Huntress ability in WC3. My mistake.

Solely depends on the development given. A character can just "be there" for ten years, and still get less development than a character that never showed up but got mentioned once in a blue moon.

Yeah, Varok is far more popular than Broxigar. His appearance in the BfA cinematic only increased his popularity.

Keep playing the game as normal. Classes don't start with their entire kit at level one. For example, shamans only get their ability Ascendance at level 100.

Oh? And which class should you play? I'm not aware of any class that allows you to pilot a mech.

My point is that such will be the same fate of those "tinker mechs". The Lightforged Warframe it is a fully-functional mech suit, fully capable of shooting through its cannon, yet it doesn't, because it's just a mount. Also, all those dragon mounts, why can't they breathe on my enemies? It makes no sense from a lore standpoint, but it does from a game standpoint. That means it's highly unlikely we'll see a class piloting personal mechs into battle.

The difference is that there's no faction racial leaders, multiple racial members, or a WC3 hero unit from WoW that ride dragons. In the case of Gnomes and Goblins, piloting mechs are widespread, both racial leaders ride robots into battle, and there's WC3 hero who did the same thing.

Just go to an NPC and learn engineering. Instant tinker. 'High Tinker', on the other hand? You gotta become an NPC first.

How can it be an "instant Tinker" if you can't begin to build a mech until level 100?

... So your 'tinker' is nothing but a rogue with the engineering profession?

Nah, the Tinker wouldn't need to steal. Like Tony Stark, he'd just need a junkyard with discarded tech. Shouldn't be too hard to find that outside of Tinkertown, Gnomeregan, or Kezan.

[Darktbs]

Always fun to hear how Tinker won't be a class because we don't want to hurt Engineering, but we can totally obliterate the Death Knight class for a Necromancer.

The double standards lies with you guys.

No one would complain about engineering if you didn't complain so hard about Dks.

[Rhamses]

The double standards lies with you guys.

No one would complain about engineering if you didn't complain so hard about Dks.

@Ielenia would. He's been doing it for years now.