Missing the 10 man Raids

[Meanshield]

I miss 10man raiding for the fact that nowadays its so hard to keep a 20man mythic roster. There's always someone who cant show up, and then you'll need a couple of extras, who then get mad if they dont get enough raidtime. This is even more compounded if you're, lets say a same language talking guild, as there are so many guilds out there.

I dont raid at the hardcore level, but even at the 3days casual raiding environment its hard to keep people around as the game quickly becomes stale, and is much easier if you'll only need 10-13. For alot of people its easier to get 10-13ppl than it is to get 25. And to combat the pugging, all Dev's had todo was put in a requirement of a guild to be able todo 10m raiding.

[psyquest]

I miss 10man raiding for the fact that nowadays its so hard to keep a 20man mythic roster. There's always someone who cant show up, and then you'll need a couple of extras, who then get mad if they dont get enough raidtime. This is even more compounded if you're, lets say a same language talking guild, as there are so many guilds out there.

I dont raid at the hardcore level, but even at the 3days casual raiding environment its hard to keep people around as the game quickly becomes stale, and is much easier if you'll only need 10-13. For alot of people its easier to get 10-13ppl than it is to get 25. And to combat the pugging, all Dev's had todo was put in a requirement of a guild to be able todo 10m raiding.

Personally I really really loved 10 man.

I wish they consider making 15 man raids.

[TOM_RUS]

Yeah 10 man in cata was great, if you haven't got class x for a certain fight it was gg.

That's problem with balancing and design of encounters on blizzard's side, not with size of raid. Not like it's different today...

[Relapses]

Personally I really really loved 10 man.

I wish they consider making 15 man raids.

If there were any concession to be made for raid size and Mythic, I think 15M would be where Blizzard would go. The problem is that the smaller raid sizes become, the more class representation becomes an issue. It's bad enough at 20M... 15M would just make it worse.

[HyperJay]

Yeah or just make another boss fight. Eonar is a poor example as the boss is a walkover on any difficulty and just a poorly designed "boss" overall.
I also highly doubt that the design the entire raid within thoes "77" days you speak of.

No raids are a lot of content thats why they are every second 77 day cycle. Hence why 77 days after ToS we got Argus then 77 days later we got Antorus. Before that they also followed the schedule. Eonar isn't a poor example because it's a boss with specific number and % mechanics.

Another example might be Kin'garoth 10 man would be 2/2/6 setup meaning you would NEED Demon Hunters or Warlocks (nerfed recently) to self heal on the third add because 2 healers cant reach all 3 adds, you'd also need to drastically reduce the amount of damage required to kill each add. That or only have 2 adds with 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps on each, and make 10 man almost impossible from the Empowerment mechanic (25% increased boss damage done if the same add colour is killed last twice), or remove Empowerment and make it basically Heroic.

Aggramar would be fundementally changed too by adds making 10 man ridiculously easier than 20 man having reduced on phase to compensate for reduced player amounts and therefor (unless stacking 6 warlock dp and 2 druid healers only) less cc's

High Command would have to drastically lower the debuff for leaving pods and increase the cast time of the bats (or reduce health a lot) to compensate as it will definitely take more than 1 cycle of bosses to kill it until your entire raid is 980 equiped full bis.

Those sort of changes.

[psyquest]

If there were any concession to be made for raid size and Mythic, I think 15M would be where Blizzard would go. The problem is that the smaller raid sizes become, the more class representation becomes an issue. It's bad enough at 20M... 15M would just make it worse.

Honestly when we raided 10 man mythic, we didnt care about classes. I had mostly people I knew well, they played the classes they wanted very well.

with 15, I have enough friends to do a top raiding group. But like many of you know, a group is as strong as its lowest skilled player.

The huge advantage of small group, you knew easily where things went wrong and who messed up. with 20 people, it is really hard at times.

[Aggrophobic]

No raids are a lot of content thats why they are every second 77 day cycle. Hence why 77 days after ToS we got Argus then 77 days later we got Antorus. Before that they also followed the schedule. Eonar isn't a poor example because it's a boss with specific number and % mechanics.

Another example might be Kin'garoth 10 man would be 2/2/6 setup meaning you would NEED Demon Hunters or Warlocks (nerfed recently) to self heal on the third add because 2 healers cant reach all 3 adds, you'd also need to drastically reduce the amount of damage required to kill each add. That or only have 2 adds with 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps on each, and make 10 man almost impossible from the Empowerment mechanic (25% increased boss damage done if the same add colour is killed last twice), or remove Empowerment and make it basically Heroic.

Aggramar would be fundementally changed too by adds making 10 man ridiculously easier than 20 man having reduced on phase to compensate for reduced player amounts and therefor (unless stacking 6 warlock dp and 2 druid healers only) less cc's

High Command would have to drastically lower the debuff for leaving pods and increase the cast time of the bats (or reduce health a lot) to compensate as it will definitely take more than 1 cycle of bosses to kill it until your entire raid is 980 equiped full bis.

Those sort of changes.

See, you're already making in work with a few small changes.

[HyperJay]

See, you're already making in work with a few small changes.

The changes I'm implying wouldn't work or wouldn't be fair to 20 if they were amazingly easy as I stated.

[Aggrophobic]

The changes I'm implying wouldn't work or wouldn't be fair to 20 if they were amazingly easy as I stated.

Then you simply have to use different raid designs. It used to work and it still will.
You take up example of bosses that are poorly designed anyway so it's not like it could be made worse, right?

I'm not saying you should change the current raids or rather, they should have had this when mythic became a thing but they didn't becuase they simply did not want to spend any actual time on it. So, again, lazy.

[HyperJay]

Then you simply have to use different raid designs. It used to work and it still will.
You take up example of bosses that are poorly designed anyway so it's not like it could be made worse, right?

I'm not saying you should change the current raids or rather, they should have had this when mythic became a thing but they didn't becuase they simply did not want to spend any actual time on it. So, again, lazy.

Flex Mythic Raiding kinda defeats the purpose, also "poorly designed" are you implying the High Command, Aggramar, Kin'goroth are badly designed even though they are the more interesting fights with Pods, Adds to cc and the add split.

[Aggrophobic]

Flex Mythic Raiding kinda defeats the purpose, also "poorly designed" are you implying the High Command, Aggramar, Kin'goroth are badly designed even though they are the more interesting fights with Pods, Adds to cc and the add split.

It's a rather poor raid in general, yes.
Thats hardly the point of the thread though. Again, you could have used different designs to work for any size. There is litteraly no arguments against it other than - It takes work.

[antelope591]

10 man raids wouldn't work anymore except as casual content. Even in 20 man you have class stacking and useless specs that never get brought. None of the raids released in Legion would work well in a 10 man mythic setting. Its obvious Blizz has completely moved away from that design.

[Schalde]

Yes i allways enjoyed the small raids more.. felt more personal and as you say u can easily get 10 people/friend to raid with. i will raid again if it comes back. u can see a damm thing what going on in raid with 20-25 man in it spells flying around you.

Also.. mistake wil be punished more an all need to be spot on

[dd614]

I liked 10H in Wrath when they didn't attempt to balance the two - when it was easier and rewarded weaker loot. Worse loot was a decent tradeoff to having a more close-knit group. I'd love that to come back, but that's just too many raid modes. LFR, Normal, Heroic, Mythic10, Mythic20/25... Think what we have now is the best we can do

It was the best option and most loved by players. Then they decided to balance around top 100 guilds and make everything 20 man.

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10 man raids wouldn't work anymore except as casual content. Even in 20 man you have class stacking and useless specs that never get brought. None of the raids released in Legion would work well in a 10 man mythic setting. Its obvious Blizz has completely moved away from that design.

They worked before for multiple expansions. Why do you continue pushing objectively false information? There isn't a single mythic fight in Legion raids that couldn't be tuned for 10 man. Stop lying.

[HyperJay]

It's a rather poor raid in general, yes.
Thats hardly the point of the thread though. Again, you could have used different designs to work for any size. There is litteraly no arguments against it other than - It takes work.

*It takes work that is essentially pointless and could be put into actually useful content* If you can't get a 20 man or can get into a guild with 20 then just don't Mythic Raid.
Also Antorus is a pretty well designed raid IMO

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It was the best option and most loved by players. Then they decided to balance around top 100 guilds and make everything 20 man.

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They worked before for multiple expansions. Why do you continue pushing objectively false information? There isn't a single mythic fight in Legion raids that couldn't be tuned for 10 man. Stop lying.

Just in Antorus - High Command, EOnar, Kin'garoth, (kind of Varimathras), Aggramar would all be not able to "scale" because of how the mechanics function.

[tanksin the enhance shamy]

10 is best, best chance to get xmog best chance to not fail at the attendance boss

[Aggrophobic]

*It takes work that is essentially pointless and could be put into actually useful content* If you can't get a 20 man or can get into a guild with 20 then just don't Mythic Raid.
Also Antorus is a pretty well designed raid IMO

I am in a 20 man guild, thats not the issue.
I just fount 10 man to be more entertaining.

[MrKnowItAll]

*It takes work that is essentially pointless and could be put into actually useful content* If you can't get a 20 man or can get into a guild with 20 then just don't Mythic Raid.

If you think about MoP i think the high end content was the most easily reachable out of all expansions mainly because you could do it in 10 or in 25 man group.I always thought that was what blizzard wanted,at least they have said many times that they want as many players as possible to be able to at least try all of the content.But then they force 20-man size for mythic and basicly eat their words at the same time.Thats what really pissed me and my guild off big time.in MoP our
guild ran about 3 different 10man groups and we enjoyed the hell out of it.with 20 and 25 man we could have only been able to make 1 group and many others would have had to sit out or go somewhere else to raid with randoms after many many years in the same guild.Its just blizzards lazyness that they want to go to one size.The whole mechanics excuse is just hilarious since the same mechanics have been rotating in the game during the years anyway,only the names have changed.Nothing exciting about those anyway.

[potis]

Finding 20 people that wanna goof around in Mythic is near impossible with the same mentality, there is a reason guilds disband all the time.

Finding 10 people is much easier considering after so many years everyone has a few friends that can group together and make a guild/group much easier.

Personally we are something like ...8-10 IRL people that play WoW together on/off, even if some arent for Mythic like the girlfriends or people that work for months without being able to play cause of seasonal work, we can find an extra 3-5 players to always be 10.

And the way HC Flex is now, you can have even more players that simply dont wanna go Mythic and be fine.

[HyperJay]

If you think about MoP i think the high end content was the most easily reachable out of all expansions mainly because you could do it in 10 or in 25 man group.I always thought that was what blizzard wanted,at least they have said many times that they want as many players as possible to be able to at least try all of the content.But then they force 20-man size for mythic and basicly eat their words at the same time.Thats what really pissed me and my guild off big time.in MoP our
guild ran about 3 different 10man groups and we enjoyed the hell out of it.with 20 and 25 man we could have only been able to make 1 group and many others would have had to sit out or go somewhere else to raid with randoms after many many years in the same guild.Its just blizzards lazyness that they want to go to one size.The whole mechanics excuse is just hilarious since the same mechanics have been rotating in the game during the years anyway,only the names have changed.Nothing exciting about those anyway.

High end content shouldn't be easily reachable tbh. 20 geared players or don't do it

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Finding 20 people that wanna goof around in Mythic is near impossible with the same mentality, there is a reason guilds disband all the time.

Finding 10 people is much easier considering after so many years everyone has a few friends that can group together and make a guild/group much easier.

Personally we are something like ...8-10 IRL people that play WoW together on/off, even if some arent for Mythic like the girlfriends or people that work for months without being able to play cause of seasonal work, we can find an extra 3-5 players to always be 10.

And the way HC Flex is now, you can have even more players that simply dont wanna go Mythic and be fine.

Stop looking to goof around in Mythic. Go goof in LFR/Normal or Heroic lmao