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  1. #261
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    Only WoW could bring this much salt to a thread speaking about Legions Strengths lol

    OT: I think Legion was a huge step in the right direction for MOST players... for PVP'ers - I think they got the shaft for the most part. I personally enjoyed PVP more in WoD, and for most people WoD was the biggest let down for end game content in any expansion even surpassing Cata's let down... but again, this is from MY OPINION.
    The problem is, what is a strong point for some, is a weak one for others. And it can get quite irksome when someone comes saying "LEGION HAD X FEATURE Y U NO LIKE IT U PIES OF SHIAT"

  2. #262
    WQ, M+ were great additions but M+ needs something else to make it exciting. I wish they eventually do something where you can customize the mods for the dungeon to up the reward. Something taken from path of exile.

    Random legendaries, titanforge, artifact grinding were bad additions. I like a certain amount of RNG in a gear based game but when every avenue has it then it becomes less like I'm "progressing" in the game and more like getting lucky and that doesn't feel like I'm actually accomplishing anything.
    Last edited by xpose; 2018-02-12 at 12:24 AM.

  3. #263
    Deleted
    Legion was a success because Demon hunters and all the changes...but they fucked dh's and made everything dull again, and here we are, im not playing since long ago, and it seems i wont be joining the new exp neither, unless big changes..

  4. #264
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    Red face

    Fabinas
    Quantity=/=Quality

    GEDDIT?
    I agree, almost all of above shouldn't take place in this game on the basis of basic design, these elements very seriously conflict with it. Ie, I can say that it's actually the opposite of right direction, but it takes too long to explain to prove it. I don't think that such topic is worth the honor.

    Someone accuse people of looking at the past in pink glasses, not realizing that they themselves are looking with them in present.

    --- Edit ---
    Wow, 2 posts after me, good work. I'm not sure that these people deserve such effort. I'm afraid they aren't particularly susceptible to this, because there is not enough openness of consciousness for understanding.
    Rakatashi
    I think you are misunderstanding what the word solo means. Guildless, non friend-grouped play. This should not be hard for you to understand.

    You've still got a bit of drool on your chin.
    Quite right. In this content (3-20 ppl), any member can be replaced by a bot, in consequence of lack of need for discussion and communication = application of social skills. These same people call projects like CS and DotA - MMO, forgetting that MMOs are at least thousand players in one closed world, plaing on one set of rules without phasing, CRZ and other foolishness. Organization of dungeons in this way was originally conceived as simplification (from technical and competitive point of view), as mini-game for a small team. But classic (this was done by a friend during one of their discussions, as I understood it supposed to be a complicated tangled maze of internal (dungeons/raids) and outdoor premises/locations with bosses and "doors" in various of its parts (also something about last boss can't be killed completely)) in this sense is so far invincible in organization and design of instances for 5-10 people. Almost everything that happened after is below this level. In this sense, classic have not been overtaken by any other expansion - dungeons and open world design and organization. Yes there were problems in other areas, but this is what was implemented best in conditions of this game's basic paradigms.

    Each trip was perceived as greate separate adventure thanks to this, and not just one from a million. This made people closer to each other and therefore emotionally more tied to the game, in contrast to ugliness that is happening in it now. Now as a result of changes this game also stoped been "great separate adventure" in favor of becoming "just something from a million others".

    ps. One more time, thanks, great posts there, they don't deserve.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-11-27 at 02:15 PM.
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  5. #265
    The difference in Legion vs Cataclysm is more of a refinement of the formula that was used going back to Vanilla.

    In Vanilla, there was very little repetitive content outside dungeons and raids.
    And dungeons or raids were not run that often because they took so long to clear.
    Old dungeons even very low level dungeons like BFD, RFK the Stockades and so forth took longer than most current raids. The world content consisted of many zones and levels 1 to 60 so questing was the MEAT of most content. And on top of all of that everything in game was tuned to be slower. This was the original formula of long leveling paths, long dungeons and few Quality of Life features.

    There were many changes to the WOW formula with TBC and WOTLK, but with Cataclysm we saw the first use of phasing tech. It was also the beginning of reuse of content becoming the norm and MEAT of an expansion. That was the bad part. Neltharion was "resurrected" after being killed in previous lore and wasn't as compelling as the Lich King going back to the RTS. Also the twilight cultists faction didn't hold much weight as the main evil faction either in the game. Cataclysm was the birth of the modern "formula" for wow, which focused on repeatable content being a more significant factor in the game. This is the first expansion where LFG really came to the fore. However, many of the dungeons were difficult even if they weren't very long. They still required the coordination and CC of the Vanilla way of doing dungeons but they weren't as long and drawn out as older dungeons.

    Every expansion since Vanilla has been decreasing the overall time to level up. Not to mention with level scaling mobs are never a real challenge to beat. And as the leveling content got smaller, repeatable content became a bigger factor. In Legion you have seen the full evolution of the formula from Vanilla. Repeatable content across the board is king, from quests to dungeons. And that seems to be the pattern going forward. And all of this is based around much more QOL tools in game that make things easier. Quests now pop up automatically while you are in the zone without needing to go to a quest giver. LFG/Group finder is available for everything.


    The only PROBLEM is that Legion required a bunch of game play and "progression" systems in order to make these things popular. Which means they may not be popular after all on their own. If flying dind't require reps with all factions, would WQs be so popular? If special mounts and class hall stories didn't require WQs at some point would WQs really work? Also you had the continual need for more AP and the RNG chance for legendaries which were there to put shine on WQs as repeatable questing content. Artifact power, nethersards, veiled argunite, primal argunite and so forth all give WQs and other content the longevity in legion. But it is hard to see how that can be carried over to BfA.

    And I think this new "progression system" where everything you do always seemed to provide "progression" towards some goal (accumulating some resource) is a hit for a good portion of the fan base as it provides "something to do". But only time will tell if they can carry that forward into multiple future expansions. Ultimately to me it boils down to old way which is content that is harder and slower to complete and hence seems more "epic", vs new way which is content that is easier and faster to complete and ultimately boring. Not sure where the balance should be between them and given the age of the game, it is obvious that no amount of tuning is going to keep players playing forever and as the game gets older it really just becomes an issue of retaining existing players as opposed to gaining new ones.
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2018-02-12 at 01:13 PM.

  6. #266
    Legion was "well received by players" for the exactly same reasons games like farmeville are "well received" and popular when they come out. They are:
    - extremely easily accesible,
    - extremely forgiving,
    - give a lot of opportunities for upgrades that require time devotion and mindless grind instead of knowledge or skills,
    - implement variety of ways to spend time ingame,
    - most of the content is time-gated, which makes people want to log in a do repetitive stuff every day in order to stay on the same level as others who do the same things (AP grind, prestige grind through WQs, rep grind through emissaries/WQs, LFR gear grind for alts, weekly chest, improving certain items like antorus trinket/legendaries in pandas/wod etc.)

    You're rewarded for spending time ingame doing repetitive, easy things and gambling. This hooks people in general. We know, based on many top raiding players who've spoken in past, that Legion was not really well received by them. The only things they usually name as being good in Legion were boss encounters apart from them being completely misstuned due to retarded legendary/TF systems and abdly handled by blizztards. And I more or less share the view.

    Nearly all the people I've been speaking to throughout Legion loathe legions rng systems, gear inflation, disbalance they create and many other things involving alts for example. Basically all of them were CE players, including myself, who keep raiding or quit during legion due to aforementiond fucked up systems mostly. I think I could name up to 10 people who'd rate the expansion "B" or more, many times more are disgusted by this expansion or neutral, just hanging on hoping for changes being made in future.

    So long story short I think Legion was "well received" by newcommers, casuals, LFR heroes and solo players mostly, from my experience raiding community has not been happy with Legion with an exception of raid boss design and M+ dungeon system. Also I think people forgot what a good expansion was, since WoD lasted long and was bashed all the time for content draught.

  7. #267
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime92 View Post
    newcomers, casuals, LFR heroes and solo players mostly, from my experience raiding community has not been happy with Legion with an exception of raid boss design and M+ dungeon system. Also I think people forgot what a good expansion was, since WoD lasted long and was bashed all the time for content draught.
    Yep, high-end raiding shows decreasing numbers in participation, moreso in PvP, which has really tanked during Legion. Also, many people go without thinking "but it's better than WoD"... Not actually impressive, for almost anything would be better than WoD
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2018-02-13 at 02:52 AM.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    High-end raiding is declining since 3 expansiosn because having 4 raid difficulties is like one of the most toxic things to get new recruits in
    what? lfr is... just lfr, most top raiders just jump into heroic since thats more like normal, and then they have to wait a few weeks and then they can do mythic.

    one of the main complaints I always saw for burnout for like ToS/NH was how much time it took, and well artifact power and lego grinding.

    other than that everyone really seemed to enjoy argus
    ......................................................

  9. #269
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Legion is the best expansion to date, they added amazing amount of content, new systems AND they managed to keep the pace with content release. It is a really well done effort to the point I'm concerned it may overshadow BfA.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Legion is the best expansion to date, they added amazing amount of content, new systems AND they managed to keep the pace with content release. It is a really well done effort to the point I'm concerned it may overshadow BfA.

    I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I've played since vanilla and this is the first expansion where they've done extremely well with content and pacing of content. Minus of course, the current window to the next expansion, but i'm sure they've different patches of content planned. I mean they added three new countries on a planet a large amount of Hopefully they do the same in the next expansion as well. I know my opinion may differ from others, but I enjoyed the artifact weapons, AP, etc. I enjoyed the class halls in a sense. I feel for some class halls they could've put more effort in. There's a lot of content at max level to do. I was pretty satisfied with the design of most raids. Somewhat disappointed in Tomb of Sargeras; especially the sarges fight. Felt it could of been more epic, but i'm nitpicking that stuff. I love each expansion for different reasons in their own regard, but what really made Cata and WoD fail was the lack of content and slow pacing, as well as slashing of content. Just felt lazy at times.

  11. #271
    I don't know how Legion could be considered a success by the metric of player population... if the population website I'm looking at is accurate, there's max 3 million active players right now and honestly I'm being generous... half that would be a better estimate based on what I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Legion is terrible. They added a load of content and subs by the last time Blizzard commented on it are comparable to WoD. There is no way you can call Legion a success. They are currently at a point where the content has to be near perfect just to keep subs stable.
    I thought Legion had great content. I didn't like all the grind that was added though. I enjoy high level raiding and alts but doing both in Legion was absolutely impossible if you have a job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    High-end raiding is declining since 3 expansiosn because having 4 raid difficulties is like one of the most toxic things to get new recruits in
    I think high end raiding has declined almost exactly in line with how accessible it is. Legion's high end raiding is by far the least accessible it has been since maybe classic or BC and, not surprisingly, the scene has died and no one cares any more.
    Last edited by IceMan1763; 2018-02-12 at 10:21 PM.

  12. #272
    Zappy Boi stan Checkt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakatashi View Post
    Yes, easy-to-assemble groups that require no prior time commitment for short but (optionally) challenging dungeons that continue to award rewarding loot throughout the expansion. Just because you're a solo player doesn't mean you'll never interact with other players, you know? This is an MMO.

    Excessive use of ellipsis makes you sound like you're drooling on yourself. Don't do that.
    and since you understand it's an MMO, you clearly understand it isn't a solo game.

    M+ isn't solo content, and this isn't a solo game.

    Don't think as the ellipsis being for me, but rather for you...to give ya time to process a...complicated? point you clearly missed.

  13. #273
    Epic! Ihsatakar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Checkt View Post
    and since you understand it's an MMO, you clearly understand it isn't a solo game.

    M+ isn't solo content, and this isn't a solo game.

    Don't think as the ellipsis being for me, but rather for you...to give ya time to process a...complicated? point you clearly missed.
    I think you are misunderstanding what the word solo means. Guildless, non friend-grouped play. This should not be hard for you to understand.

    You've still got a bit of drool on your chin.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    High-end raiding is declining since 3 expansion because having 4 raid difficulties is like one of the most toxic things to get new recruits in
    I think this has some value. Assuming 10% of the players go raiding outside of LFR, you split those 10% further down into 3% (mythic), 3% (heroic) and 4% (normal) groups with their own skill requirements. Mythic+ has even more difficulty levels. With every difficulty level you narrow down the people who are playing on your level and requiring to leave some friend behind.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Legion is the best expansion to date, they added amazing amount of content, new systems AND they managed to keep the pace with content release. It is a really well done effort to the point I'm concerned it may overshadow BfA.
    The pace of content is mostly done by splitting the content to outdoor and raid content. My personal experience on this was that either the raiders or the non-raiders played at a moment, not both at the same time.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Stunlock View Post
    I think this has some value. Assuming 10% of the players go raiding outside of LFR, you split those 10% further down into 3% (mythic), 3% (heroic) and 4% (normal) groups with their own skill requirements. Mythic+ has even more difficulty levels. With every difficulty level you narrow down the people who are playing on your level and requiring to leave some friend behind.
    I don't think the number of difficulty options available has much to do with the decline of high end raiding. I mean, if you want to be technical, even going back to Yogg-Saron that fight actually has 5 different options when it came to the difficulty. Ulduar and that fight are considered darlings by the community and the number of options didn't slow down raid participation or change people's opinion of that particular fight or the raid as a whole. The way that loot worked in ICC there really was 4 options there as well... 10 normal, 10 heroic, 25 normal, and 25 heroic. Since the loot tables were different, I put those options as slightly distinct from today's loot tables where ilevel just goes up as you go up in difficulty.

    I think that when raiding was at the peak, it was when Blizzard made efforts to remove boring grindy crap and make it more about skill when it came to being able to defeat the higher level content. ICC participation was through the roof at all difficulty levels when compared to Legion (even looking at it from the % of the playerbase standpoint, which ignores the massive decline in popularity completely). Is it really that surprising that high end raiding would basically die during an expansion where the most important element in being able to participate was having crazy amounts of free time to grind all the crap you really did need (like maxxed/close to maxxed AP in NH)? Frankly, I find the result 100% predictable, but at least the hours played metric is up... right Blizz??
    Last edited by IceMan1763; 2018-02-15 at 04:01 PM.

  16. #276
    Deleted
    IMO the fan base just had 0 expectations after what we've had so anything they got was well received xD

  17. #277
    Zappy Boi stan Checkt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakatashi View Post
    I think you are misunderstanding what the word solo means. Guildless, non friend-grouped play. This should not be hard for you to understand.

    You've still got a bit of drool on your chin.
    that's not solo my dude. just because you don't know the people don't mean you're alone.

    Difficult, I'm sure.

  18. #278
    Deleted
    It was well received yes, but not for the reasons you mentioned. Legion didn't bring much to the table, was boring and problably one of the worst expansions.

    The wow fanbase nowadays has super low expections so they got pleasantly surprised with legion, even if the expansion was below most previous expansions quality wise.

  19. #279
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Legion is the best expansion to date, they added amazing amount of content, new systems AND they managed to keep the pace with content release. It is a really well done effort to the point I'm concerned it may overshadow BfA.
    Serious question, i see this banded about alot but i do not see it.

    What and where is this amazing amount of content?


    Are you talking about being given overly generous rewards for doing the same fill the blue bar quests that you did while leveling in daily quest 2.0?
    The doing the same dungeons over and over again on a difficulty slider in challenge mode 2.0?
    The one time deal of mage tower quest?
    Or garrisons 2.0?
    Or tanaan 2.0?

    That's all i see in this game and other than daily quests being given a lick of paint and the m+ system i cannot see what exactly legion has over wod for content.
    Last edited by mmoc1448478633; 2018-02-16 at 05:21 AM.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clearcut View Post
    Serious question, i see this banded about alot but i do not see it.

    What and where is this amazing amount of content?


    Are you talking about being given overly generous rewards for doing the same fill the blue bar quests that you did while leveling in daily quest 2.0?
    The doing the same dungeons over and over again on a difficulty slider in challenge mode 2.0?
    The one time deal of mage tower quest?
    Or garrisons 2.0?
    Or tanaan 2.0?

    That's all i see in this game and other than daily quests being given a lick of paint and the m+ system i cannot see what exactly legion has over wod for content.
    I couldn't agree with you more. People are seeing something in legion that is not there in the actual game.
    Last edited by mmoc7197edf7e7; 2018-02-16 at 05:59 AM.

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