Why is epgp thought so badly of?

[Deleted]

Just because everyone is doing something doesnt mean it is best.

First thing i want to say is this

I understand why top raiding guilds use council
I totally agree that distributing items correctly is for the good of the guild at high end guilds.

What i dont get is why guilds with casual players use loot council, as if it is going to make any difference whatsoever? effectively hurting your own team by only gearing a select few who you deem worthy?

I have just joined a guild with epgp 6 mythic, the atmosphere is so nice and relaxed, no toxity, it is very mature, everyone knows the system there is no favourites. no "wtf are you doing" if someone makes a single mistake, what i dont get is why when i try to help recruit a little there is such negativity towards epgp?

Is it because people cant attend much therfore cannot earn much points?
Is it because people think they are better than the rest of the players in guild and should get prio over loot?

Its very simple

Attend raid and earn points, if you dont win an item you want, the person that wins it has his epgp reduced by the value of the item, you get your points deducted by nothing.

At the end of the week everyones total is reduced by 30% (decay), so if someone has 10000, they get deducted 3000, if you have 2000, you get deducted 600, in a few weeks you will be at the front if you dont win anything unless someone hasnt needed an upgrade for longer than you, then why should you get the prio if they have been waiting longer? if someone is hoarding epgp then they will be worse off gearwise and wont be getting as much value for money so to speak for there attendance.

Every time you attend raid and do not win something your chance to win something you need is increased, like a sort of bad luck protection.

Where as in the casual council guilds (again see first sentance) i find loot distributed by misinformed management, in most cases through biased decisions, sometimes people dont actually know where the right place is, for example:

A 970 bis trinket drops and 2 mages want it
Player a has 945 2nd bis
Player b has 960 4th bis
Where would the 970 item be best to benefit the raid?

The answer is the 960, as it is only his 4th bis

Wow is so closed minded, its like everyone else is doing it it must be right, sorry but its not, i disagree with all of you if it is not done definitively correct. in semi hardcore / casual guilds it is corrupt and unfair based on personal opinions that in a lot of cases are wrong.

Ultimately its the players that will kill bosses, not the loot, so keep everyone happy, making people not want to attend raid because they know there is an undergeared raid only logger who is the gms mate that is going to get all the items is not inspiring for attendance, as much as you tell yourself "for the good of the guild"

[stomination]

Yea i remember losing an agi sword to a warrior before.

[Nalorakk]

Because when your absolute BiS goes to some other spec that's only a marginal upgrade because they have higher points, it's frustrating and you only have the system to blame.

If the same thing happens in loot council, there's something to discuss and improve.

[Kanegasi]

Because when your absolute BiS goes to some other spec that's only a marginal upgrade because they have higher points, it's frustrating

It's not frustrating at all to players who aren't entitled insufferable snowflakes. It's amazing how some players act when "their" BiS drops, or believe they deserve an item more than the other 19 players that helped you kill the boss. If you're not in a cutting edge guild, the net upgrade of an item does not matter, only the fairness of the distribution. If you had less points than the person that got the item, you either need to prioritize your rolls or stop blowing off raid nights.

In addition to OP, loot councils commonly ignore new members when it comes to loot. I once was a casual (non-raiding) member in a guild that would make applicants skip two entire lockouts of loot. The disenchanter actually had the final say on whether or not an applicant got loot that no one wanted. Why anyone would raid with a guild like that is beyond me.

[Socialhealer]

It's not frustrating at all to players who aren't entitled insufferable snowflakes. It's amazing how some players act when "their" BiS drops, or believe they deserve an item more than the other 19 players that helped you kill the boss. If you're not in a cutting edge guild, the net upgrade of an item does not matter, only the fairness of the distribution. If you had less points than the person that got the item, you either need to prioritize your rolls or stop blowing off raid nights.

In addition to OP, loot councils commonly ignore new members when it comes to loot. I once was a casual (non-raiding) member in a guild that would make applicants skip two entire lockouts of loot. The disenchanter actually had the final say on whether or not an applicant got loot that no one wanted. Why anyone would raid with a guild like that is beyond me.

1 guild has a retarded loot council therefore all guilds have a retarded loot council, got it.

and yeah net upgrade affects progression, if everyone's goal is progression then the net upgrade matters the most, otherwise sure wipe for a few more hours a week waste everyone's time because of "fairness".

[Dsc]

I've raided under probably every loot system conceived, and at one point in a top 5 ish world kill guild.

The happiest I've been and it seemed the crew with me was, was EPGP. This was in a guild I retired from that at peak was world 75ish and now hangs in the high 100's.
They still run it today. All these years later. It works.
I prefer to be in control of the loot I get, and have myself an saw others pass for another raider to have that piece for the sake of the team.

When you raid at a high level and put that work in, yes you want the best but sometimes you understand that doing what is needed to progress serves you too.
It's a combination of self determination and maturity.

One drama creating, ass kissing, insider thing I'll never raid under again is "Loot council"

[Deleted]

EPGP, DKP or any other point system all originate from the time where you had 40 people in the raid, 30 of which where there for the ride, 20 you see once a month and 10 will never be in the raid again. In that ecosystem council would take an hour for each boss and there will always be drama.

And that's the second big reason why people don't like point systems: drama. Not necessarily that it causes it, but the fact that the systems are specifically made to combat it. It's like saying you have this elaborate schedule to avoid alcohol exposure. What people hear is that you have a drinking problem. It's just an assumed stigma.

Oh, and loot system has nothing to do with raid etiquette or basic social skills, that's just absurd assumption on OPs part.

[Nalorakk]

It's not frustrating at all to players who aren't entitled insufferable snowflakes. It's amazing how some players act when "their" BiS drops, or believe they deserve an item more than the other 19 players that helped you kill the boss. If you're not in a cutting edge guild, the net upgrade of an item does not matter, only the fairness of the distribution. If you had less points than the person that got the item, you either need to prioritize your rolls or stop blowing off raid nights.

In addition to OP, loot councils commonly ignore new members when it comes to loot. I once was a casual (non-raiding) member in a guild that would make applicants skip two entire lockouts of loot. The disenchanter actually had the final say on whether or not an applicant got loot that no one wanted. Why anyone would raid with a guild like that is beyond me.

I'm a raid leader who has hosted both EPGP and Loot council in both heroic and mythic environments, and invariably a fairly managed loot council is better than EPGP for every raid I've managed.

[mkultra55]

Because when your absolute BiS goes to some other spec that's only a marginal upgrade because they have higher points, it's frustrating and you only have the system to blame.
.......

There'd have to be a lot more going on between the two players in your example then just an issue with EPGP. Any decent Guild wouldn't allow the above to happen.

My Guilds from TBC to Cata used EPGP and while there was some hurt feelings on occasion I never saw anyone do the kind of dick move you described.

EPGP is the most transparent and fair system in the game when you're dealing with a large group of strangers. On the other hand if your Raid is filled with people who've all been playing together for years then I'd say Loot Council is the way to go.

[Deleted]

a fairly managed loot council

... can be very very hard to find. When it works, it WORKS! But when you have brown noses and bed sharers affecting the decisionmakers, it is absolutely horrible. But then again, that can be said for most systems that are widely used. DKP has its perks, EPGP isn't all bad, Need over Greed is good with resonable players, but all system has their flaws.

[durrtygoodz]

It's not frustrating at all to players who aren't entitled insufferable snowflakes. It's amazing how some players act when "their" BiS drops, or believe they deserve an item more than the other 19 players that helped you kill the boss. If you're not in a cutting edge guild, the net upgrade of an item does not matter, only the fairness of the distribution. If you had less points than the person that got the item, you either need to prioritize your rolls or stop blowing off raid nights.

You think this way because you see loot as a reward for killing a boss, rather than a tool to help you on the next one.

In addition to OP, loot councils commonly ignore new members when it comes to loot. I once was a casual (non-raiding) member in a guild that would make applicants skip two entire lockouts of loot. The disenchanter actually had the final say on whether or not an applicant got loot that no one wanted. Why anyone would raid with a guild like that is beyond me.

Yeah no shit you don't give new people gear. What if they're terrible and you don't want them? What if they bail on you before that trial period because they don't like the guild or have a better offer? The thing about the disenchanting is fucking weird but having bottom priority on trial is standard as hell.

[Kanegasi]

1 guild has a retarded loot council therefore all guilds have a retarded loot council, got it.

and yeah net upgrade affects progression, if everyone's goal is progression then the net upgrade matters the most, otherwise sure wipe for a few more hours a week waste everyone's time because of "fairness".

If you're blaming wipes on the 970 legs you gave someone that had 960 legs and not to the player with 940 legs, your group has much bigger problems.

I'm a raid leader who has hosted both EPGP and Loot council in both heroic and mythic environments, and invariably a fairly managed loot council is better than EPGP for every raid I've managed.

Anecdotal. I'm glad it worked out for you, though.

loot as a reward for killing a boss

Because it is.

Yeah no shit you don't give new people gear. What if they're terrible and you don't want them? What if they bail on you before that trial period because they don't like the guild or have a better offer?

They bail because they're not getting loot. If they're terrible, blame the person in charge of recruiting and vetting.

The thing about the disenchanting is fucking weird but having bottom priority on trial is standard as hell.

Standard, yes, good, no. Just because a ton of guilds do it doesn't make it okay.

[Lahis]

Never had problem with EPGP. I press need on gear I need and I get it if I get it.


That said, same is true for our current Loot Council system. Press appropriate buttons on the addon and sometimes even get loot.

[Coolascancer]

my main guild used epgp with a loot list for each class, basically common sense applied to who could "bid" for an item. some loot councilish shit happened but whether you say it's officer corruption or raid progression i didn't mind it but i don't think i was ever at the wrong end either. I was not an officer.

a guild i was a leader in during MC used epgp but also loot council? we definitely distributed loot on the fly sometimes but we also had EPGP, i don't remember anyone getting mad about loot and if they did i probably didnt care, honestly. most of the time it was a "nobody".. 40 man raiding and such. I passed up one of my best friends on a tank cloak and gave it to a recruit because... well.. he was a tank and my friend was dps. recruit ended up leaving shortly after lolol.. so much for being fair amiright?

My first WotLK guild used solely loot council that i had a heavy hand in and I'll admit i definitely sided on or tried to give my rogue friend a lot of the loot because he had 100 percent attendance and never messed up and had top dps(which, yeah duh loot) and literally never said a word of complaint.

[TheRealOface]

All loot system's have there benefits and downsides, I'm in a casual raid group and we use RCLC and it hasn't been a problem but I'm not saying one can't pop up. In the end its all about what you prefer but I do see your point.

[Saphyron]

I tried all of them.

And tbh as long there is no corruption each of them is good. Except free for all.
In Wrath, I was running Loot Council when we raided ICC 25-man but need over greed in ICC 10-man.
In Cataclysm, a casual heroic we ran need over greed. 10 & 25 man guild. Depending on sign-ups.
In Mist, a casual heroic guild we ran need over greed, but we discussed all loot that dropped. It was a 10-man group.
In Warlords, I switched to a 20-man Mythic guild. They ran Need over greed, sadly due to lack of members, it became a veritable Heroic Guild.
In Legion, I went from a casual Normal guild with need over greed to a more semi-hardcore mythic guild that later switched to EPGP.

And so far there has not been any system I find bad.

[schwarzkopf]

Because even though it is superior to DKP, it involves division and multiplication which confused a lot of people.

[Socialhealer]

If you're blaming wipes on the 970 legs you gave someone that had 960 legs and not to the player with 940 legs, your group has much bigger problems.

multiply that across a raid? easily i mean i guess you're one of those who has never missed transitions or phases or killing adds or a boss by seconds, please tell me more about your 1 entire week of raid experience LUL.

[clevin]

EPGP with reasonable decay is THE best system for more casual guilds with sporadic attendance since regular attendance gets more EP for that person. That avoids people hoarding points, disappearing for a month, coming back and outbidding someone else who's been there. It's a system that rewards participation and assumes that gearing will even out (and that people wouldn't be asshats who took a marginal upgrade when the next person in line would see it as a huge upgrade).

For serious guilds with near 100% attendance a well run LC will likely be better.

[redfinale]

Point system is fine for the most part. Show up, get points, spend points, done. However, I was in a guild though that did epgp as a supplement to loot council, people would build points, but there was still discussion as to who got loot. If a guy has more points and wanted a piece, then by principle of the addon, he wins it, no questions. If a person is going to get very little upgrade from something, even if it is an upgrade, with a point system, I don't see why the person would waste points like that anyways. In ToS, my guild decided to raid an hour earlier which didn't work as well for me, and with epgp, i got shafted hard. In the first hour i couldn't be there, I'd lose out on at least 3 bosses worth of points or loot. So of course i told the raid leader I was done raiding at that point.

But, toward the tail end of the guild's life, epgp was outright dropped in favor of, not loot council, but loot nazi. my GM basically just said "give so and so this piece" or "that guy missed last week, i not giving him anything". Went from somewhat organized to "who kissed the GM's ass more?"

That's why i like my current guild, laid back but able to clear heroic, and we do personal loot. someone gets something they dont want, they offer it up simple as that. No muss no fuss.