Burning of Teldressil Broadcast Text (Spoiler!!!)

[Arrashi]

Yep. You don't tell about massdestruction weapon production because "means necessary", your miners blows up because "means necessary". Nothing to see here.

But it doesn't change the fact that alliance strikes first and provekes conflict.

[CasualNoob]

alliance strikes first

Not "strike". "Silithus incident". That kind of events do not provoke conflict. Allience don't burn horde city or something. It's local event on neutral territory. Hordee should demand compensation.

[Octavius]

But it doesn't change the fact that alliance strikes first and provekes conflict.

100 % right. That's it. Then we can add the horde would've striked soon after if not, but it's not 100%. Most likely, for what we've seen, and even the alliance (which does not what we know) has seen.

[Deleted]

But it doesn't change the fact that alliance strikes first and provekes conflict.

Alliance strikes first yea, but mining azerite is the action that provokes that strike.

[Verdugo]

Not "strike". "Silithus incident". That kind of events do not provoke conflict. Allience don't burn horde city or something. It's local event on neutral territory. Hordee should demand compensation.

And demanded they did, lifetime supply of charcoal.

[Arrashi]

Not "strike". "Silithus incident". That kind of events do not provoke conflict. Allience don't burn horde city or something. It's local event on neutral territory. Hordee should demand compensation.

I see. So its "incident" when alliance does it. Then teldrassil was also "Incident". Incident with torch that is.

- - - Updated - - -

Alliance strikes first yea, but mining azerite is the action that provokes that strike.

Only in eyes of alliance sycophants.

[Octavius]

Not "strike". "Silithus incident". That kind of events do not provoke conflict. Allience don't burn horde city or something. It's local event on neutral territory. Hordee should demand compensation.

This is another story. Like, we don't know how goes after silithus. If the burning of teldrassil is the direct subsequent event, then burning a region full of n.elves is a bitter more unilateral act of war than killing some (Hostile, cause they turn hostile before you attack them) miners in silithus. It overshadows it, it's not something 2 factions can solve talking, while silithus being less "striking". Instead, if the war esclaletes more "gradually", with both sides exchanging blows, then the alliance strikes no doubt first.

[CasualNoob]

Then teldrassil was also "Incident". Incident with torch that is.

That's attack on alliance territory, not incident. Attack on lordaeron ruins not incident. That's attack on horde territory. Several dead goblins in silithus - that's "silithus incident" because of bad communication between Horde and Alliance.

[Arrashi]

That's attack on alliance territory, not incident. Attack on lordaeron ruins not incident. That's attack on horde territory. Several dead goblins in silithus - that's "silithus incident" because of bad communication between Horde and Alliance.

Nah its incident. Some horde spy probably felt provoked and scared and dropped his torch. Totally incident. And one 100% provoked by alliance.

[turboether]

i wonder who is the smugglers loyal to the horde

Probably Budd and co.

[Quaade]

People are really triggered by Sylvanas damn

You have convinved me with your elonquent argumentation. I was especially impressed with how ypu consisely refuted all my argumenrs while never going after me personally.

Btw if thinking I was triggered which led me to stating objective facts, feel free. If that's your default stance, then nothing I can say will change your. So trying to change it, is a waste of my time.

Also, when you've consolidated someone, where even talking about their abusive past is enough to make them break down, then be my guest to use "triggered" as a derogatory jest.

[Zulkhan]

Yep. You don't tell about massdestruction weapon production because "means necessary"

MDW production.

Mining resources.

Spot the difference.

It's not "strike", it's "incident". Like Dogger Bank incident, for example.

Lol no. The Dogger Bank incident was an actual incident because it occurred over a mistake. The Alliance here is well aware of what they're doing.

I see. So its "incident" when alliance does it. Then teldrassil was also "Incident". Incident with torch that is.

Who knows, maybe is Zul who dropped it.

[Mehrunes]

Saying alliance started a war by disrupting a goblin operation that aims to harm the world itself by draining its lifeblood is ridiculous. This is small skirmish at best, not unlike what happens in BGs and a lot of questlines where small forces of both factions have a spat. Thats Not a full scale war.

In the meantime, in the oncoming book Sylvanas is mobilizing for a full scale invasion of Stormwind right after the legion is defeated, which would be an open act of war.

See the difference?

A small skirmish is an attack. An attack is proper justification for war. Add 1 and 1 together and you get Alliance starting the war. And yeah, if Sylvanas did invade Stormwind it'd be an open act of war. Just wanting to do that in unspecified future is not.

Spoiler from before the storm sample chapter:


Given this chapter, it is heavily implied that Sylvanas seeks a way to invade. Hence, when she sees Azerite she knows that it will help her with her goals.

Anduin on the other hand does not want bloodshed and is only forced into action upon realizing the horde has their hands on a potential game changer. He sends spies to ascertain the situation, the horde kills those spies at about the same time the alliance starts killing the goblins.It is difficult to say who started what but in general, it is clear which faction wants war more.

And since Anduin didn't read that sample chapter, he cannot know of Sylvanas' desires.

As much as collecting a resource that can blow the other faction up for this specific purpose is.

And dont tell me the Horde is collecting it to plant begonias with it.

Except it by no means is "as much". One is an already performed hostile action. The other is preparation for future hostile action.

Blight isn't acid, it's got far more in common with modern day nuclear weapons. Or as someone said before, biological or chemical agents. All of which are banned, when bombs aren't.

It works by melting things. Sounds like an acid. It has no nuclear fallout and isn't even an explosive. Ergo, not a nuclear weapon. Biological weapon agents are diseases. Blight does not infect you. Chemical agents that person talked about are gases. Blight is a liquid. Hit and miss on all attempts.

My original point being that the horde are not actually victims of an alliance attack as some people make it out to be on this forum.

If the Alliance attacks them first, they kinda are.

Starting it does not mean the alliance are the aggressor and the horde are the victims though.

Start mining the worlds blood to use it in warfare, but dont come crying if the other faction soes not like that and tries to stop you.

Starting it. Not aggressors. Pick one. And how does the Alliance know the Horde wants to use it on the Alliance before they attack? You're part of a group that's tasked with finding out what the Horde is planning, yet you attack the Horde in the very first quest before you find out anything.

Its interesting because the more you think the less sense it makes.

Since its (apparently) plan from pre-cata, we can assume it has nothing to do with ressurecting new forsaken (as she couldnt do it back then).
Since its now, its difficult to see it as part of "revenge against humanity" since arthas is long dead.

There's also her doing almost nothing outside of Lordaeron after she secured it. If she wanted the Alliance to burn, she should have helped Garrosh, then eventually disposed of him.

If you look at it without any context it does contradict itself yea. If you are able to grasp the idea that the alliance tried to stop something that if left unchecked could wipe them out because the horde has exactly this intent....eeeh not so much.

Sadly you dont dig that deep but are instead focused in finding those straws.

Yes so much, because (even putting aside the issue of Alliance's limited information at the time they attack) preparation or planning to do something is not actually doing it. Alliance is the one that actually commits aggression here, not the Horde. I wonder who's the aggressor, the party that commits aggression or the one that does not... Look at all dem straws.

They were defeated because of the Siege of Orgrimmar. The Night Elves still lost the battle in Ashenvale.

So you never played Alliance quests in post-Cata Ashenvale?

By sending spies.

Who are mysteriously silent about the huge piece of information of Horde planning to attack the Alliance with Azerite weapons at the time you're sent to attack the Horde outpost.

So is this proof that the Horde were, once again, the aggressors? Since Saurfang was captured and imprisoned after Lordaeron was invaded.

Given how Alliance aggression in Silithus happens first, nope.

You saw the archers leave right? They strolled away casually like they were in no danger. That is why the Alliance assume they were betrayed. If you got time to casually walk away you got time to cover someone a bit while they retreat then run and gtfo.

You know what I also saw? Demons arriving on the position the archers left seconds later. The archers are the backline of an army. And those archers weren't even fighting on the same front as the rest of the Horde, they were babysitting the Alliance while the Horde front was established in front of the demons' position. So they were as backline as you can get. Yet demons strolled there seconds later. Which shows that the Horde's ranks were utterly shattered.

Besides, the Alliance didn't need the Horde to cover them. Because of the topography of the battlefield the demons were unable to reach the Alliance location anytime soon. And the gunship that arrived at around the same time took care of the Felbats the Horde's archers were focusing at. The same gunship also allowed aerial view of the Horde plateau that was flooded with demons.

Im pretty sure the SI: 7 can add 2+2 and figure out why the Horde is frantically draining a substance that is so powerful that nothing on this scale has been seen before.

Yet they are still mysteriously silent about it at the time of Alliance attack. And them adding things without actual evidence is just guesswork, which isn't a justification.

Yea they will probably use azerite for decorating the gates of orgrimmar and producing rainbow friendship bombs.

/s

Or use it for armor, like the player does in BfA.

And according to your headcannon the Alliance can't possibly figure out that Sylvanas, a known user of weapons of mass destruction each time when it suits her, getting her hands on large quantities of what can only be described as a "Very powerful substance" that "Changes everything" and is basically the blood of a nascent Titan, is not a good thing and should be stopped.

Alliance's prejudice and them jumping to conclusions without any evidence also isn't a justification.

Alliance did not strike first.

You really think the horde was mining azerite for fun? Lmfao get real. The horde is using azerite against the alliance and is an act of aggression, the alliance spies are the immediate reprisal.

Nuking a nation of people is NOT on the same scale as killing a dozen of goblins and spying on people who plan to make weapons of mass destruction.

They could mine it for whatever purpose they want. Horde mining stuff is their business and since it's not an act of aggression, Alliance getting triggered by them mining said stuff enough to attack the Horde mining outpost is them striking first. And being on the same scale or not does not change the fact that killing dozens of Horde members is an attack on the Horde so congrats on making an illogical argument in an effort to handwave the Alliance attack.

And ofcourse it is an assumption, a very well made assumption based on Sylvanas' previous history of basically trying to obtain what is Azeroth's version of Wunderwaffe and available facts, such as the fact Azerite is a very powerful substance.

And if that assumption turns out to be correct, then it is pretty much "Figuring it out"

And Sylvanas' plan to get Eyir has what to do with the Alliance for you to bring it up?

What I am trying to push as a fact is that the Horde has no right playing the Victim card by crying "But Alliance started it" because they are very aware of what they are doing.

There are two sides to an attack, the aggressor and the victim. If Alliance initiates the attack, which side is the Horde? And the Horde may be aware of what they are doing, but when the Alliance attacks them, they aren't aware yet.

Also, the Alliance is very much aware. They know the Horde know that its powerful, and given who the warchief is, assuming the Horde has peaceful intent is naive in the extreme.

Given how we use the same thing to make our gear in BfA, they Alliance is jumping to conclusions with no proof rather than being "very much aware".

I think it's apt to say that hostility between the Horde and Alliance were already at pre-war pitch when the Silithus quests happen - Gallywix's demonstration of Azerite's potential seemed to occur at roughly the same time as Shaw shows Anduin the piece of Azerite his SI:7 spies were able to recover from Silithus (based on the two cut-scenes ending with the SI:7 agent overlooking Gallywix's mining operation). Did the Alliance open the hostilities into all-out conflict? I would say "yes," mitigated only by the fact that knowing the potential of Azerite they felt they couldn't allow the Horde to monopolize the substance - to allow the operations to continue unchallenged would basically mean the Alliance preemptively declaring defeat to an aggressor. The Alliance threw the first punch but the fight itself was nigh inevitable, so in that sense it doesn't really matter who acted first. It was just the logical escalation of grievances into open conflict.

The best way to fight a monopoly is open a competitive business. But instead instead of mining their own Azerite and engaging in an arms race (even though by the time of the attack they still have no proof it's actually an arms race) Alliance - being the warmongering imperialistic disgrace of a faction (that delusionally convinced itself to have the moral high-ground no less) it has always been - first stole some of the Azerite the Horde mined and then attacked them.

And when arguing against brilliant Alliance posters that cover themselves in a safe-space cocoon of fanfiction, ignorance and alt-facts because they can't handle their faction not being a flawless paragon of justice, pointing out that their faction is a warmongering disgrace that is the one to actually attack the Horde for like the tenth time in WoW's run matters everything. The fight being inevitable is no negation of that.

How reaction to goblins suddenly digging shit around sergeras sword in industrial scale can be "paranoid"? There are only one reason to keep goblin operations secret - some mega weapon production.

And how does the Alliance even know it's secret? Just because the Horde did not inform them of it? The Alliance isn't the Horde's boss.

So, Horde ally against Legion (Alliance) was notified about (possibly dangerous to whole Atheroth) operation around Legion artefact in neutral territory, and mining of dangerous substance which can be used in massdestruction weapon?

The Horde stopped being the ally of the Alliance the moment the Alliance attacked them in Stormwind.

Well, first thing the Horde is asked to do, is to kill every single SI:7 spy in Silithus.

Of which the Alliance does not know about. So from the perspective of the Alliance it's just a Horde operation of unknown nature they stumbled upon. Them treating it as secret despite not having a way to know of the orders to indeed keep it secret is them jumping to conclusions. Them treating it as weapon production facility (well, not really what happens in game IIRC, but it's the argument of Alliance posters) is them jumping to conclusions.

Their is a reason in the real world we try to keep aggressive nations from obtaining weapons of mass destruction, we don't KNOW that they would use them for evil deeds, but in the name of safety for the world we go out of our way to stop them if we can. The same conclusions can be drawn of the horde, who at this point HAVE abused super powerful objects to bring death upon the members of the alliance, be it Military or civilian targets.

Except the Alliance is a much more aggressive faction. And Azerite isn't a WMD. By the time the Alliance attacks they haven't even ascertained it can be used for creation of WMDs.

Here is a list (And I may be forgetting some) of all the things they have done recently. They have been developing a BIo weapon in the plague that has been and will still be used in the future (A weapon that is looked down upon by the living horde for being evil no less), Imprisoning magnataur young to controller their parents in to doing battle with their enemies, Constructing a mana bomb from a powerful Magical Item which was stolen from murdered blue dragons, Twisting the elements of the world (against their will, and bastardizing the shamanic way) to construct elemental monstrosities, Trying to use an ancient Pandaren artifact to super power their troops (regardless of side effects), Stealing an old god's body part to try and infuse their troops with its power (also regardless of side effects), Attempting to enslave the Queen of the Val'kyr so they can force the servitude of the other Val'kyr to produce more Forsaken and as powerful combat support (Sounds very similar to something the "old" horde did to another Queen during the second war huh....).

And here's what the Alliance has done recently: starting a world war that lasted four years. So even if the Alliance feels like the Horde is making weapons, if they were honest with themselves they'd admit the Horde has a reason to create a deterrent against further Alliance aggression. But since the Alliance is apparently devoid of any self-awareness they instead immediately prove that by attacking them once again. Also, the part about Val'kyr is unsubstantiated.

Now the Goblins (who are known to do things mostly for profit) of the Horde are mining something (That with just a silver of said object radiates immense power) for unknown reasons.... What the hell do you think anyone with half a brain is thinking your going to use it for, especially with your current leader and your track record with powerful objects in the past. Yes maybe Sylvanus was going to use it heal the wound of the world, cure all sickness, and find Mankirk's wife, or maybe she will just abuse it to destroy the Alliance. Considering this is the woman who says "I will bring the Alliance to it's knees", and "I will raise more Forsaken one way or another", I'm betting on the latter option.

And how does the Alliance know of her saying these things to justify their conclusions?

Of course it's not. That's why when goblins do strange things - you investigate.

Investigate. Attack. Yup, I confuse those all the time too. Reminds me of the intro to Far Cry 4.

We literaly have people here saying that alliance didnt start the war because "they struck first preemptively and horde defended itself".

This is why no one takes you seriously.

And any argument against this brilliant logic is convincing those people of HORDE BIAS.

It's not "strike", it's "incident". Like Dogger Bank incident, for example.

Which was a strike. And something UK almost went to war over.

[Mehrunes]

Not "strike". "Silithus incident". That kind of events do not provoke conflict. Allience don't burn horde city or something. It's local event on neutral territory. Hordee should demand compensation.

Your own example disproves your claim on the nature of events called incidents. Events are usually called incidents when the attacked nation does not go to war over them. Which is their prerogative. One that does negate the fuck that the event could be used as a valid casus belli.

Yeah totally.

They're gonna mine it for world peace and happiness, definitely not weapons of mass destructions against the alliance.

Get your head out of your ass.

I made no claims about what they were going to use it for one way or another. Other than this straw-man, you failed to address a single point of what I actually said. Congrats on making an utter failure of a counterargument.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yeah, cause mining the Blood of the Strongest Titan in the Universe, and using it for our own cause is an ENTIRELY EXCUSABLE THING, RIGHT?!

I mean, it's not like our Planet's dying or anything, and it's not like the Blade of SATAN HIMSELF is on our fucking World...

NOOOO! -_-

[TheFirstOnes]

Your own example disproves your claim on the nature of events called incidents. Events are usually called incidents when the attacked nation does not go to war over them. Which is their prerogative. One that does negate the fuck that the event could be used as a valid casus belli.




I made no claims about what they were going to use it for one way or another. Other than this straw-man, you failed to address a single point of what I actually said. Congrats on making an utter failure of a counterargument.

"Horde mining stuff for their own business and is not an act of aggression"

Also the Horde: "This will change EVERYTHING!" "And the Alliance...doesn't...know of this?!"

...Ahahaha...hahaha...haha...ha...ha....

Idc if you're of another faction. Mining the Blood of a Titan will be used for War efforts. Mostly when it's mined by the fucking Horde. Ya know? The Faction led by an insane bitch, the faction Blizz loves to have Wars on, the Faction that's full of Addicts, rebels and Savages...

YEAH, CAUSE NOTHING EVER GOES WRONG WITH THE HORDE IN TERMS OF PEACE AND NON-AGGRESSIVE ACTS, RIGHT?! -_-

[Mehrunes]

Mining azerite is a direct act of aggression. There is no reason to mine it if not for war, gallywix himself is overseeing it and making sure the alliance doesn't find out.

Aggression against what? The soil of Silithus? Even if we agreed on the ridiculous notion that mining a material that can be used for weapons is an act of aggression, because your infinitely brilliant mind skipped the steps of turning the material into weapons and using the weapons, Alliance isn't the only non-Horde actor out there. They could have used it against Old God's forces just as well. Finally, Azerite can be used for making armor, so yeah, mining it is such an act of aggression on its own.

[TheFirstOnes]

There is no reason for this Sylvanas whiteknighting, it's even surpassed friendly immolation, congrats.

Yeah, also. How can you mine something that's both POWERFUL, and...well...Mind Controlling with lust (See Sylvanas' And Anduin's faces when they see it), and NOT call that shit an act of aggression?! Judging by how much Sylvanas wanted that thing, and judging by how Anduin's face was when he held it against his Palm, that shit does not seem...well...peace worthy...

[Mehrunes]

There is no reason for this Sylvanas whiteknighting, it's even surpassed friendly immolation, congrats.

Someone argues against my brilliant notion that mining is aggression. Quickly, let's call them a whiteknight to expose my full argumentative prowess!

[iamthedevil]

Mining azerite is a direct act of aggression. There is no reason to mine it if not for war, gallywix himself is overseeing it and making sure the alliance doesn't find out.

That is the dumbest thing i've ever heard. They don't even know what it is.