Burning of Teldressil Broadcast Text (Spoiler!!!)

[Mehrunes]

1. No. I haven't contradicted anything. Hell, you've contradicted more than me. So, what the fuck are you talking about?

What are YOU talking about? I haven't said you contradicted anything in what you replied to. You did in the post before. And the point, that once again went over your head, is that you saying I contradicted myself in what you replied to there makes no sense.

2. Other than the "Champions", and litterally the non-playing Characters. NO ONE KNOWS OF N'ZOTH. However, we'll be painfully aware of him once BFA actually happens. That's why the Old God threat of BFA exists in the first place.

And they can't inform their faction leaders, because?

3. The Alliance never jumped to any conclusion. And if they did, then it'll appear that they were right for "attacking" first. Also, you didn't finish your post.

They attacked Horde before they actually established what the Horde is doing with Azerite. So yes, they did jump to conclusion.

And before you start crying, and defending. I'm done for today. You're obviously blind, and sad. Who knows, maybe you're trolling me. Like I care.

The only thing I'm blind to is what words mean in your world. And yes, your usage of English is saddening me.

[Zulkhan]

On a smaller scale? yes 100%

Cool. Now, are you aware that basically 99.9% of people back then considered the Horde the actual aggressors and a smaller percentage of them still use that occurence as one of many examples of Horde "backstabbing" the Alliance?

[Lillyth]

Reasons why I dont like Christie Golden.

[TheFirstOnes]

Attacking the Horde is indeed aggression. Complicated matter fer sure.




I mean, I applaud you for actually Googling it, but the point of the exercise was to understand what you're Googling. Silithus isn't Alliance territory so your whole point crumbles into a pile of nonsense-dust. Mining a resource isn't military occupation, annexation by use of force, bombardment or military blockade of ports. Finally, the Alliance has no way of knowing what Nathanos told the Horde player because Alliance isn't the omniscient player. And Alliance not wanting things is of no value to the Horde and the Horde doing non-violent things the Alliance does not want them to do isn't aggression.




Teldrassil also happens after Silithus. Google "chronology" and "linearity of time".




I'm not reaching for anything, the point just went over your head again. WotLK shit starting over a misunderstanding does not change the fact Alliance started it. Not that it did start over a misunderstanding, because Varian was already informed about Putress' rebellion before he declared war. Him knowing rebels took over Undercity is one of the main reasons he went there. Garrosh going too far 3 years after the start of the war is irrelevant to the topic of who started it.




I mean, it's fascinating and all, but that doesn't mean the fact that mining doesn't meet the definition of an act of aggression you just linked. So we're stuck at language issue right now.

Ugghh...just this last one before I go.

1. And Military occupation and Invasion is also Agression. SAME THING!

2. You're right. It's not the Alliance's Territory. It IS, however, uncontrolled, and shit. Remember, just because nobody's there, that doesn't make it NOT an Act of Aggression. It can still be that, if you're using the Azerite for your own sick methods.

3. Indeed it does. And it happens because the Alliance killed like....50 Goblins. So, in response to the 50 dead Goblins, SHE GOES OUT AND DESTROYS THE TREE HOUSE OF MILLIONS! That doesn't make it better. She start shit by a fuck up intention, the Alliance protected themselves from it, and now she goes on and destroys an Alliance capital. Like...what the fuck...

4. Varian never started it. He only fucked it up further, since he did start the Undercity invasion which did NOT need happen, btw. So...yeah, he did start an invasion, but the Horde was also blaming the Alliance, thinking that they were secretly apart of the Wrath Gate Situation. Not to mention the fact that the Horde ALSO hated the King of Stormwind back then. That only made things worse for both Factions.

5. No we're not. You're stuck with it. I'm not. You're ignoring the definition of an Act of fucking Aggression. Stop it.

And before you start thinking me an Alliance fanboy, i'm not. I actually also hate the Alliance this Expac. Though, that doesn't mean they started shit, cause they really didn't. Now, stop whining and put on some new diapers.

[Mehrunes]

Cool. Now, are you aware that basically 99.9% of people back then considered the Horde the actual aggressors and a smaller percentage of them still use that occurence as one of many examples of Horde "backstabbing" the Alliance?

Now it's convenient for mental gymnastics though. Times change. The Alliance train-wreck of a narrative with it.

[Highelf]

And people say Sylvanas sounds evil? She sounds like a competent and strategizing leader.

So was hitler...

[iamthedevil]

Ugghh...just this last one before I go.

1. And Military occupation and Invasion is also Agression. SAME THING!

2. You're right. It's not the Alliance's Territory. It IS, however, uncontrolled, and shit. Remember, just because nobody's there, that doesn't make it NOT an Act of Aggression. It can still be that, if you're using the Azerite for your own sick methods.

3. Indeed it does. And it happens because the Alliance killed like....50 Goblins. So, in response to the 50 dead Goblins, SHE GOES OUT AND DESTROYS THE TREE HOUSE OF MILLIONS! That doesn't make it better. She start shit by a fuck up intention, the Alliance protected themselves from it, and now she goes on and destroys an Alliance capital. Like...what the fuck...

4. Varian never started it. He only fucked it up further, since he did start the Undercity invasion which did NOT need happen, btw. So...yeah, he did start an invasion, but the Horde was also blaming the Alliance, thinking that they were secretly apart of the Wrath Gate Situation. Not to mention the fact that the Horde ALSO hated the King of Stormwind back then. That only made things worse for both Factions.

5. No we're not. You're stuck with it. I'm not. You're ignoring the definition of an Act of fucking Aggression. Stop it.

And before you start thinking me an Alliance fanboy, i'm not. I actually also hate the Alliance this Expac. Though, that doesn't mean they started shit, cause they really didn't. Now, stop whining and put on some new diapers.

Invasion of what? You seem a bit off kilter. So many assumptions here.

[TheFirstOnes]

Alliance attacked miners for reasons the Alliance doesn't even understand. What do you call that? Oh yeah, aggression.

Lets say you found some new ore on a hike in the woods, so you started to mine it. Then your neighbor comes up, sees you doing it. They have no clue what you are doing but they then kill you. You're good with this? Don't forget, this is directly after you just saved the world with your neighbor.

...

Just this one last time.

1. They fully understand. After years of war against the Horde, this should be no problem for them to understand.

2. A Neighbor farming something is a MUCH different Scenario from a rising War that was building up since the end of MoP, and a Faction mining one of the most Powerful Materials on the Planet for their own Self War winning needs.

This is World of Warcraft. One Faction always starts shit, and the other always reacts. You can't say the Horde never did anything wrong, cause they are now. And the Alliance is actually not in the blame here...for once. Only took them a triggered Jaina, a hot headed Varian, and a fucked up in the brains Garrosh.

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Invasion of what? You seem a bit off kilter. So many assumptions here.

Invasion of our Titan's Blood? -__-

[iamthedevil]

...

Just this one last time.

1. They fully understand. After years of war against the Horde, this should be no problem for them to understand.

2. A Neighbor farming something is a MUCH different Scenario from a rising War that was building up since the end of MoP, and a Faction mining one of the most Powerful Materials on the Planet for their own Self War winning needs.

This is World of Warcraft. One Faction always starts shit, and the other always reacts. You can't say the Horde never did anything wrong, cause they are now. And the Alliance is actually not in the blame here...for once. Only took them a triggered Jaina, a hot headed Varian, and a fucked up in the brains Garrosh.

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Invasion of our Titan's Blood? -__-

You are just filled with assumptions. You realize the characters in the game don't know some of thing things the players know, right?

[TheFirstOnes]

Okay, i'm done. It's late. You guys don't know what you're talking about. And...well...to save myself from ANOTHER unneeded (But wanted) Ban...

You're delusional.

[TheFirstOnes]

You are just filled with assumptions. You realize the characters in the game don't know some of thing things the players know, right?

My last one.

This has less to do with the Players, and more about the truth of War, dude. Hell, I haven't even mentioned the fucking Players. I mean, yes, I did mention the Titan's Blood, BUT THAT DOESN'T HELP WHEN THE HORDE'S STILL MINING THE SHIT, EVEN IF THEY DON'T KNOW! God...

Have a good night.

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Say what you will about who started it, but there is no possible way you can say that nuking a nation of people is a justified reprisal against killing a few dozen goblins.

I mean, who cares anyway? We're just gonna fight N'zoth anyway at the end of this.

[Mehrunes]

Ugghh...just this last one before I go.

1. And Military occupation and Invasion is also Agression. SAME THING!

Fascinating. Irrelevant, but fascinating.

2. You're right. It's not the Alliance's Territory. It IS, however, uncontrolled, and shit. Remember, just because nobody's there, that doesn't make it NOT an Act of Aggression. It can still be that, if you're using the Azerite for your own sick methods.

You do realize that we're talking about Alliance-Horde relations though, right? Horde committing an act of aggression against, err... Silithids incinerated by Sargeras or whatever, does not mean they committed one against Alliance. So when it comes to Alliance-Horde relations, Alliance struck first.

3. Indeed it does. And it happens because the Alliance killed like....50 Goblins. So, in response to the 50 dead Goblins, SHE GOES OUT AND DESTROYS THE TREE HOUSE OF MILLIONS! That doesn't make it better. She start shit by a fuck up intention, the Alliance protected themselves from it, and now she goes on and destroys an Alliance capital. Like...what the fuck...

Alliance could just wound one Goblin there, it wouldn't change they attacked first. Horde acting disproportionately does not alter timeline.

4. Varian never started it. He only fucked it up further, since he did start the Undercity invasion which did NOT need happen, btw. So...yeah, he did start an invasion, but the Horde was also blaming the Alliance, thinking that they were secretly apart of the Wrath Gate Situation. Not to mention the fact that the Horde ALSO hated the King of Stormwind back then. That only made things worse for both Factions.

He outright declares war but OK, he did not start it. also, he did start an invasion which did not happen, so he did start an invasion? Wat? And Horde was blaming the Alliance, thinking they were secretly a part of the Wrath Gate situation? More wat?

5. No we're not. You're stuck with it. I'm not. You're ignoring the definition of an Act of fucking Aggression. Stop it.

I'm not ignoring it, I explicitly outlined that mining does not meet any of the elements of the definition of an act of aggression that you linked.

And before you start thinking me an Alliance fanboy, i'm not. I actually also hate the Alliance this Expac. Though, that doesn't mean they started shit, cause they really didn't. Now, stop whining and put on some new diapers.

Me pointing out that your usage of words is subpar does not constitute whining. Also, google "whining".

[iamthedevil]

My last one.

This has less to do with the Players, and more about the truth of War, dude. Hell, I haven't even mentioned the fucking Players. I mean, yes, I did mention the Titan's Blood, BUT THAT DOESN'T HELP WHEN THE HORDE'S STILL MINING THE SHIT, EVEN IF THEY DON'T KNOW! God...

Have a good night.

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I mean, who cares anyway? We're just gonna fight N'zoth anyway at the end of this.

You just don't understand, I see. Nevermind.

[iamthedevil]

Fascinating. Irrelevant, but fascinating.




You do realize that we're talking about Alliance-Horde relations though, right? Horde committing an act of aggression against, err... Silithids incinerated by Sargeras or whatever, does not mean they committed one against Alliance. So when it comes to Alliance-Horde relations, Alliance struck first.




Alliance could just wound one Goblin there, it wouldn't change they attacked first. Horde acting disproportionately does not alter timeline.




He outright declares war but OK, he did not start it. also, he did start an invasion which did not happen, so he did start an invasion? Wat? And Horde was blaming the Alliance, thinking they were secretly a part of the Wrath Gate situation? More wat?




I'm not ignoring it, I explicitly outlined that mining does not meet any of the elements of the definition of an act of aggression that you linked.




Me pointing out that your usage of words is subpar does not constitute whining. Also, google "whining".

Give it up, this is all going right over this guys head.

[Mehrunes]

Okay, i'm done. It's late. You guys don't know what you're talking about. And...well...to save myself from ANOTHER unneeded (But wanted) Ban...

You're delusional.

Google "save from a ban".

Say what you will about who started it, but there is no possible way you can say that nuking a nation of people is a justified reprisal against killing a few dozen goblins.

Which is why no one is saying it.

Give it up, this is all going right over this guys head.

I'm not trying to convince them though. I'm just exposing them and their arguments for what they are.

[Aucald]

The best way to fight a monopoly is open a competitive business. But instead instead of mining their own Azerite and engaging in an arms race (even though by the time of the attack they still have no proof it's actually an arms race) Alliance - being the warmongering imperialistic disgrace of a faction (that delusionally convinced itself to have the moral high-ground no less) it has always been - first stole some of the Azerite the Horde mined and then attacked them.

I doubt that would've worked as you envision it - had the Alliance came in with heavy mining equipment and started moving in on the Horde's established operation you'd wind up with pretty much the same outcome, one side attacks the other and it descends into an armed squabble. I also think that the power within Azerite (which Gallywix, Sylvanas, Shaw, and Anduin all seem to pick up on without testing or probing of any kind) makes its application something of a no-brainer - perhaps not an explicit arms race to begin with, but still safely inside the ballpark of "something I don't want the other side to get their hands on." That we know (in the future sense) that it's going to lead to things such as Azerite War Machines in Lordaeron is another thing altogether, but I'm pretty sure all the various faction leaders see the writing on the wall.

And when arguing against brilliant Alliance posters that cover themselves in a safe-space cocoon of fanfiction, ignorance and alt-facts because they can't handle their faction not being a flawless paragon of justice, pointing out that their faction is a warmongering disgrace that is the one to actually attack the Horde for like the tenth time in WoW's run matters everything. The fight being inevitable is no negation of that.

I think you're disposed to see the worst in the Alliance, much the same as your detractors here are disposed to see the worst in the Horde. The history of the conflict between the Horde and the Alliance is a long one, with many twists and turns to its narrative - who's to blame and who's at fault is more nuanced than "Horde struck first" or "Alliance fired the first shot." In the case of Silithus, it was just unavoidable - and no, that doesn't negate the fact that the Alliance was the aggressor in this scenario, but that fact doesn't really mean a whole lot in the big picture. Hostility is a given, the Alliance can't afford for the Horde to have sole access to some powerful and new energy source or raw material, and so they engage the Horde to ensure that that won't be the case. The two sides are already in conflict and already hostile and the Horde's kill-on-sight standing order for Alliance individuals speaks to that pretty firmly even if they don't outright fire the first shot. Silithus was a powder-keg waiting to blow, and it was the Alliance who finally lit the fuse in this case.

[Hctaz]

This, seriously... I used to like the horde once upon a time, when Thrall was running things, and then I liked it again for a while while Vol'jin was in charge, but Sylvanas is looking more and more like Garrosh every day... She had better have a damn good reason for this.

Well, there's always the whole, "Genn tried to murder me," and, "Gallywix was mining Azerite in Silithus and then the alliance showed up to steal our shit because they don't want us to have it."

There's always that.

[Schattenlied]

Well, there's always the whole, "Genn tried to murder me,"

she tried to murder him first, turnabout is fair play, they are already even.

and, "Gallywix was mining Azerite in Silithus and then the alliance showed up to steal our shit because they don't want us to have it."

Yup, should just let them abuse the blood of Azeroth while the planet is potentially dying instead of trying to heal the wound. As Magni said, we should not be mining this shit, we should be trying to heal the world.

[Hctaz]

she tried to murder him first, turnabout is fair play, they are already even.

She "tried to murder him" because the Warchief of the horde ordered her to attack the Gilneans, not out of her own personal spite. Genn attacked her in Stormheim because he thinks that she betrayed the Alliance when she was also just following orders from the current Warchief.

Yup, should just let them abuse the blood of Azeroth while the planet is potentially dying instead of trying to heal the wound. As Magni said, we should not be mining this shit, we should be trying to heal the world.

The Alliance isn't doing this shit to save the planet. Magni's voice is falling on deaf ears for both factions.

[Schattenlied]

She "tried to murder him" because the Warchief of the horde ordered her to attack the Gilneans, not out of her own personal spite.

"I was just following orders" has never been an acceptable excuse.