Why is epgp thought so badly of?

[ddengster]

EPGP is perfectly fine. Actually, for most guilds it's probably the best loot distribution alternative. Most guilds don't have solid rosters, or close-knit relationships between players, or even a lot of experience on the leadership, so a loot council is always awkward, and regularly leads to issues. Also, it's fucking trivial to use, easy to learn, and just gets things done.

So yea, EPGP is the easy solution to get things going. Loot Council is probably the better choice, but not every guild pulls it off.

Yup, it's a tool like any other. This problem is extremely similar to Bitcoin and the like. Do you trust a known system to handle your money or a band of those in charge to handle your money?

Forcing loot council for the guild's progression needs is fine, similar to how countries handle critical commodities, but then use EPGP for the rest.

[Costa]

Both systems have many many problems, EPGP problem is that you can still "hoarde" the EPGP points even with decaying system in place. You can still find your BIS trinket dropping at 960 and being given to someone who it is just 2nd or 3rd BIS because they have more.

Loot Council also has many flaws in it, especially when you join a guild which has like 5-6 officers, a GM, a Raid Leader and a Looter/Master Looter type rank, so before you start this council is 8-10 players big and they will get prio on loot to gear themselves thus you need to be that one mage or one warrior tank to maybe get loot all the time. If you are that 3rd mage as officers play 2 then gl ever getting loot.

The best loot system is the newest one, the personal loot system. That way if you get an item you don't want it is rolled for :P

[Trickname]

It can result in a common situations such as:

1) People ignore upgrades to wait for their BiS
2) A 5 item level upgrade goes to someone when it's a 30+ (example) upgrade for someone else
3) Someone who knows f*** all about their stat priorities gets an item which would have been a massive upgrade for someone else

You don't have to be hardcore to distribute gear inelegantly.

One of my old guilds used a mix of epgp and a council which could overrule situations such as these.
The most common one was not allowing people to pass on upgrades because they were waiting for something else.

Still better than 'suicide kings'....the anger

[Krothar]

I always remember during wrath my guild used epgp with the obvious exception of Main Specs always beat Off Spec.

I was a Shaman that main specced Enhance, but like 8 out of 10 raids I'd be asked to heal. Now, I didn't mind healing, but it was my Off Spec for a reason.

My healing gear wasn't bad, but obviously not as good as my Enhance gear, obviously. My Resto shield was my real let down. It was from one of the ICC dungeons, so for normal ICC it was okay, I guess, but once we got into Heroic it was really starting to be noticeable.

You might remember that a Shield dropped from Marrowgar (I believe it was him), but for literal months we would recruit a new healer, it would drop, I'd be told I couldn't have it due to healing being my Offspec andthe new Healer needed it for their main spec.

The new healer would for one reason or another leave within a few weeks and I'd be left with my bad shield.

I never did get that damn Int shield from Marrowgar.

I get this is more of an issue with the guild than it was epgp but it always left me with a sour taste in my mouth for epgp afterwards.

[Planetdune]

Just use the group loot system and be done with it. Rolls are always fair.

[TemporalAnarchy]

if someone is hoarding epgp then they will be worse off gearwise and wont be getting as much value for money so to speak for there attendance.

This sentence exemplifies why any type of point-based loot system is aids. This kind of behavior is bad for your raid and you absolutely cannot force people to take loot without drama ensuing. However, it is ALWAYS an issue. And not just one guy, I'd say at minimum 20% of characters in the five guilds that I've used standard point systems with hoarded for one item and let themselves fall behind on gear.

Anyway, to your trinket example, assuming for fire from context (also assuming you, like most people, aren't including Arcano since it can't technically be farmed): Trinket in question is obviously Acrid Catalyst Injector; if context is correct 2nd BiS is Tarnished Sentinel Medallion, 4th is Prototype Personnel Decimator. There's a TINY fraction of a percent different between those trinkets at those ilvls; it would go down to the nit picky levels for decision in my LC like attendance, performance, who has gotten more loot, etc. I mean, we're talking a DPS difference of like .4% between the two initial trinkets. We could nitpick that it's an approximately equal upgrade ST, but a much greater upgrade AoE over the 945; however given the placement of the fights where PPD is superior to TSM in AtBT we really wouldn't care. Provided the two players are equally performing, I would honestly favor upgrading the 945 because he's likely been longer without a shiny, new trinket upgrade and there is appeal to making players happy to avoid burn out.

If the question were 960 not-Acrid vs 945 Arcano, hell yes I'm upgrading the 960 every time. No question. If it's Vitality Enhancer instead of PPD, probably still leaning toward the 945 as it's really close to PPD. Also, in fairness, if it was for frost and not fire I'm absolutely looking for a not frost mage to give a 970 Acrid Catalyst Injector to. Harsh, but it's so much better for aff, shadow, and fire that I'd prio them for it.

[meroko]

Because it's dumb /thread

[vsb]

I think that EPGP is the best system for casual guilds. What I saw so far about council is that it's not fair. I'm not talking that loot master is just not being honest, but usually he's not taking everything into account. He uses simplistic rules which are not fair in all cases and some people are upset.

That said, in current raiding problem with EPGP might be procs. For example I'm raiding a month in a mythic guild, I'm top1 priority in EPGP and I didn't receive single item yet, because with M+15 procs and coins I just don't need anything. I might roll on some crazy proc, that's what I'm saving my GP for.

Honestly with mythic+ and procs gearing from raid became weird.

[Karlz0rz]

Council is best, if it's dealt with in a mature manner.

[Wries]

Used it in Wrath and I consider it superior to anything else. Quick distribution of loot, long-term outcome is fair and you can even point-reward benched players for their dedication to stay around. The idea of a council going for "optimal progress" always does foster the outcome that some simply don't receive as much and often get less interested in showing up and staying active. Instead you combat this by having the council stop going for "optimal", thus ultimately resulting in the whole thing being time-consuming and pointless.

The only issue back then was..

Because even though it is superior to DKP, it involves division and multiplication which confused a lot of people.

This.. Some just couldn't wrap their head around how it worked with receiving "Gear points" when having received an item. Idk, I guess I wouldn't want to be them.

I'd also just settle for personal loot. The system that Blizzard, knower and ruler of the odds, told us is basically *the* most loot generous system around now when loot is tradeable. But some seem to just hate the feeling of an "item going to waste" even though 1) item would probably not have spawned at all anyway with GM-loot on and 2) potentially unwanted items still spawn with GM-loot all the time.

[Erolian]

I help do council in my guild and honestly I kind of wish Blizzard would just remove every loot option except for personal from the game. Its not that I think ours is corrupt or anything like that. I generally think we do well with it between biggest upgrade, who will be in for progression, and who is actually the better player. Its just that I've been playing WoW so long and I've seen so many problems arise with loot or the one bad player just feeling bad because hes always skipped over for loot that I sort of wish it just wasn't a thing anymore. For progression assigning loot correctly is a strong tool but outside of that its really just a tool to fuck with people and helps to create situations that are a little toxic. There's also the part where I sort of just don't care about loot and I wish it was just automatic to get back to playing rather than trying to maximize the value of the drops. It could pretty easily be worked on to include vanq/prot/conq tokens so that things could be traded around a little more easily and to avoid weird situations where just your warrior loots a tier chest every week but can't trade it. Overall personal loot could be a lot smarter and generally eliminate the need for a loot council if Blizzard were willing to put in a little work. There's no reason it can't see that you already have the chest from last week and if its going to drop throw it to someone else that doesn't have it or at least just be more likely to drop you a different item

Personally I believe the vast majority of guilds, including my own, aren't in a position where a loot council is needed and yet you have heroic only guilds or really low end mythic guilds using it for some reason. It really shouldn't even be a conversation. Characters doing any content should be geared appropriately from that content without having to worry about getting fucked by RNG to the point that players create groups of players within their raid to try to perfectly assign the raid loot out of fear that it'll be wasted/useless or that your players won't be geared enough to compete with the competition if the game were left to its own devices. Not to mention ML is the sole reason split runs are so useful. Loot is probably the worst thing about WoW

[Puupi]

How about personal loot?

[Noram54]

How about personal loot?

Yeah, maybe I want three tier chest pieces while the tank still hasn't gotten one!

[W1shm4ster]

The only real problem i see with a loot council is, that they may favor certain people above their performance. Sometimes loot councils do weird stuff like, giving someone an item simply because he has a lower ilvl relic as an example than the other guy in question, but their performance is like day and night.

A DKP system is, well almost, a relic of the past, you could never make a loot council back in the day and try to give it to someone who you think deserves it, i mean, there're 40 people to think about then, only thing you could do is, asking someone why he is putting DKP on that item and so on, to maybe tell someone you won't get it, because reason X.

This and all has nothing to do with casual guilds or not, but i bet in casual guilds you with loot councils, you will probably see more often the same people get loot.

[Nnyco]

seen so many corrupted loot councils, im suprised that one doesnt have a bad rep

[rasako]

There'd have to be a lot more going on between the two players in your example then just an issue with EPGP. Any decent Guild wouldn't allow the above to happen.

My Guilds from TBC to Cata used EPGP and while there was some hurt feelings on occasion I never saw anyone do the kind of dick move you described.

EPGP is the most transparent and fair system in the game when you're dealing with a large group of strangers. On the other hand if your Raid is filled with people who've all been playing together for years then I'd say Loot Council is the way to go.

I've been in more than a couple guilds that were secretly tweaking epgp values so that certain guild members always had waaaaaaay more fucking points than they should have. no system is perfect.

[Deleted]

I generally think we do well with it between biggest upgrade, who will be in for progression, and who is actually the better player.

see there lies the issue, you have girlfreinds of gms in world rank 5000 guilds deciding who is the better player when they struggle to pull 50% percentile every boss and have only ever read icy veins about how to play there own character.

Loot council unless done properly with a bis table for every class / item slot is based in the most on the opinion of someone that would of been given the position of officer for one of the following reasons:

gm felt the officer was exceptional (again an opinion) so wanted to make the player feel important
the officer is a girlfreind / freind / family member of the gm
the gm needed help with shit like whispers, farming mats, recruitment
the player is a long term freind of the gm from past raiding guilds.

I will repeat what i first wrote, i totally get why top guilds use loot council, they know what they are doing, and i 100% agree it is better for raid power if done correctly.

I will tell you a little story about my experience in my last loot council guild, there was an officer, a freind of the gm decided to reroll tank, because the core of the guild believed that tank was the answer to there prayers they threw every bit of loot at him, he was a guardian druid, i am a resto druid, i didnt mind, i was 964 from farming the shit out of m+, when the time finally came where i actually needed a single item (some shitty boots that werent even that big a deal) guess who won the item, the guy that had received 15 or so items in the last 3 weeks, so i asked myself, why am i attending?

That guild lost someone that reads top logs for progress in order to be able to prerpare before even attempting the boss where healing is best used, things, right down to the details, where wild growth was used, why was it used at that time, how many times was it used, what build did the guy have, what leggies / trinks does he have (mana/no mana), find out what the median stats are of the 10 top logs (with the build that looks the best) and try to get as close as i can. someone that considers anything below 95% percentile (for myself) not good enough, and will work on achieving my minimum aim. in place of a guardian druid that had 25% uptime on ironfur which ironically i had to change my entire build for to carry his ass, first progress kill on hounds the guy had 55% of my healing or something completely retarded. end of it all, im just a crybaby loot whore because i didnt win boots.

People do not know any better, but they think they know best, sometimes, the guy that is leaving isnt leaving because he is a loot whore, he is leaving because he is a better player than you give him credit for, or in my case, i didnt like that i was putting in effort and it was visible in the depths of logs i was carrying certain people only to be kicked in the balls because the officers had a higher opinion of the guy i was carrying because he had been there longer.

Raiding is a team effort, when someone is constantly being ignored for loot, it doesnt inspire them to feel part of the team, as silly as it sounds, eventually, they gonna ask themselves why they attend, whether thats 1 month or 6, put yourself in those peoples position and you would act EXACTLY the same, if your an officers pet and they are of the opinion that your a good player, sure loot council is fine, just the same as leggy system being fine if you dropped bis on first go.

[potis]

Silly thread.

EPGP was for when the days the game was a RPG, were there were BiS items but it wasnt such a massive difference if you didnt get it cause you were supposed to get the Resistance gear first as a Tank as example.

It had its faults by the fact that people skipped on upgrades for the "Flashy weapon" as it happened in every guild but any decent GM or raider leader would simply say "Fuck off and grab the item".

And in most cases the loot of weapons was already decided months before and good luck whining about gear, how many more guilds were on the server that had any decent progress? Exactly, stfu and get the item.

But in weaker/shit guilds still wiping on pointless content like MC/BWL EPGP was hated because "THE FUCKER GOT MY ITEM AND I AM BETTER THAN HIM CAUSE I AM RANK 7 IN PVP AND HE IS RANK 6".

Loot Council is abusable by shit guilds hence people that have never played at a better level, think its a bad thing.

In other words, shit players and shit guilds make for shit situations.

Loot council done following the BiS route along with performance rewarding is the best, do you really want the item before someone else? Learn to play your fucking class and if you are both equal, then roll for it and let RNGesus decide for you.

Problem again is, lack of knowledge and shit players ruin that too

[Deleted]

Silly thread.

EPGP was for when the days the game was a RPG, were there were BiS items but it wasnt such a massive difference if you didnt get it cause you were supposed to get the Resistance gear first as a Tank as example.

It had its faults by the fact that people skipped on upgrades for the "Flashy weapon" as it happened in every guild but any decent GM or raider leader would simply say "Fuck off and grab the item".

And in most cases the loot of weapons was already decided months before and good luck whining about gear, how many more guilds were on the server that had any decent progress? Exactly, stfu and get the item.

But in weaker/shit guilds still wiping on pointless content like MC/BWL EPGP was hated because "THE FUCKER GOT MY ITEM AND I AM BETTER THAN HIM CAUSE I AM RANK 7 IN PVP AND HE IS RANK 6".

Loot Council is abusable by shit guilds hence people that have never played at a better level, think its a bad thing.

In other words, shit players and shit guilds make for shit situations.

Loot council done following the BiS route along with performance rewarding is the best, do you really want the item before someone else? Learn to play your fucking class and if you are both equal, then roll for it and let RNGesus decide for you.

Problem again is, lack of knowledge and shit players ruin that too

Hello, i will rewrite the first thing i wrote, "i understand why top guilds do it" "i agree totally that it is the best method when done correctly"

your arguement that loot council is best is misguided, yes in theory it is, but it is rarely excecuted properly, especially in the lower end guilds that use loot council corruptively, effectively causing loss of players and a hindrance to the guild, but as long as the handful of 5 players that think they are amazing are getting everything they are blind to see the bigger picture.

Epgp is fair, everyone knows the system, all the guilds that i have been in epgp have very little turn over, you look at a corrupt councils guilds join/leave log and it is full daily, players leaving guilds is not good for progress, as much as you might tell yourself they werent good enough, you still have to find there replacement, and judging by what you think of them (they are shit) you hadnt found a replacement yet else you would of replaced them in the first place so the guild just moved backwards by losing them.

[Deleted]

Alot of work to manage. Puts new members at a terrible disavantage wich therefore hurts recruitment.