Skill Rating should be put into the system

[Twdft]

I don't get how Battlebeard can be in favor of such a system.

Ignore guys like him, he is either Troll or Stupid. I'd say he is trolling these forums for quite a while now, nobody can't be that stupid.

[mstg]

Most of you probably dont know that warcraft logs and raider IO are not available for other regions outside US and EU, for Chinese servers, not even armory is available. Some say there's no pugs for mythic raiding, yes they exist, they just do the first few bosses.

[Khallid]

Personal skill rating for PVE has probably been discussed before but not in depth. Right now the game is just about item level for heroic and normal pugs, and to a certain extent for mythic raiding as well, but mythic raiding has achievement for each boss and guild management so that kind of reduced the need for personal skill rating a bit. What I'm suggesting is a skill rating on a scale of 0-10, which will help people to identify the actual skill of the player, getting rid of people who only bought their gear or got carried. This will also help to force players to improve their skills if they want to get in groups. The skill rating will be primarily based on two areas, 1. Standards for DPS and HPS (for tanks I dont know because I dont play one), how much DPS and HPS the player should be doing according to the item level 2. Execution of mechanics like running out of things, target switching etc. And something like if it's not the player's fault and they die, the ratings dont change. If they die to mechanics more than twice then the ratings go down. Should take all raids like LFR, normal, heroic or even mythic into account so players have no chance to be carried.

How would you feel if you were labeled to have low skill under that system huh? It only encourages people to treat you like garbage. It doesn't fix pugs in any way and guilds don't need any label to figure out who is a bad player or a good one. It's really obvious with the current tools we use.

[Deleted]

I'd actually like a system like this but it just doesn't work in practice.
How do you determine the "DPS standard"? Does it take into account each spec? Whether the instance/fight is suited to the spec skillset?
How do you determine HPS, if everyone is geared and taking little dmg, your hps will be low. If there is a lot of self healing this will lower it as well.
What if one or two DPS are really geared and powering down mobs before the 3rd DPS can get much done? They aren't a bad player just victims of circumstance.
What if someone keeps causing wipes to mechanics and it isn't your fault?

These are just a couple of things off the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that bad players shouldn't be rewarded. But it's hard to implement

Maybe the game could keep a track of how different specs and classes perform on each boss. If a player does clearly above the average dps for his gear level in that specific fight, and doesn't constantly keep dying to (or killing/damaging others with) special mechanics, he could be considered skillful. Healing and tanking are more difficult things to track, of course. Maybe healers could get more "skill points" if they themselves or a significant portion of the players are undergeared, or something like that.

[Spotnick]

Would be awesome to have PVE rating so it could be used in matchmaking, this way we could queue for normal or heroic with people of similar score, that would indeed be good for the players, but after so many years, I came to the conclusion Blizzard is trying to get the best players to carry the rest, because they encourage boosts by putting rewards those people can sell, and they encourage people who have no reason to go in let's say LFR to go there because it would help their progression.

Sadly Blizzard decided to copy oQueue instead of OpenRaid when they implemented the group finder. The feedback system was really useful, you would let's say never join a group started by somebody who has negative feedback about ninja looting (example, before personal loot etc)..

Sadly all you have is armory, which is less and less important every xpac because Blizzard hides things more and more, and external sites like wowprogress, warcraftlogs and raider.io

[ID811717]

As an example, an ex-raider in Method or Paragon or Exorsus or any of the big, guilds that are racing or were racing for number one, an ex-raider from such a guild would ALWAYS perform better than a current player with achivemenet and higher ilvl.

I would take an guy who raided world firsts with Method with 920 over a random with 960 and Cutting Edge achiv every day of the week.

You give those ex-raiders too much credit. Sure, they used to be skilled (and might still be up-to-date on their knowledge and skills). But so are the players from the other 150 guilds that currently have Antorus Cutting Edge.

If you happen to push high M+ keys, you can come across many players from a variety of hardcore guilds. A lot of them are amazing, to an extent that having the Method, Paragon or Exorsus tag does not make up for the difference of 40 ilvls (or anything close to that).

[JackWest]

I could not agree more!

Today People just judge logs, and actualy DPS or HPS. That sucks.

I am 100% for a skill system, that besides DPS (dps shouldn't even be that big part), also tracks:
- Interupts
- Soaking (at certain bosses, where soaking is actually needed)
- Target swapping (noticing notable damage on adds)
- Stuns and CC (when needed)
- Avoiding damage (aoe on the ground etc)
- Deaths at non-wipe attempts (to not dying by stupid things)
- Encounter-interactions, like clicking things, entering portals, using items etc (quite rare but exists)
- Etc, etc. Lots of stuff you can track.

Each factor gives a certain numer, lets say 1-10 and with lets say 10 categories, you can have a rating of 10-100. 100 if you max all categories. Some fights, that don't have interupts, would ofc not lower your score etc.

Would even take it further, and have this skill tracker also track if the player has enchants and consumeables at previous kills etc.

However, this would be automated, and not voted by people. The game can EASILY track all of this and summarize a skill level if the devs wanted. This would be in-game and overshadow logs, who really only benefit dps whores who might be terrible raiders with good dps.

Still salty random people dont carry your alts?

System like that can never work? Why? Because when the tunnel vision assa rogue on imonar doesnt get out fast enough with the sleep canister and then gets dispelled while still close to some melees, they are gonna be ‘punished’ for being slept for long time and dropping on dps, eventhough 2 other people fucked

[Tech614]

Most of you probably dont know that warcraft logs and raider IO are not available for other regions outside US and EU, for Chinese servers, not even armory is available. Some say there's no pugs for mythic raiding, yes they exist, they just do the first few bosses.

Warcraft logs is available to everyone. Everyone's version of WoW is capable of writing a combat log, and that's all Warcraft logs requires.

[Paperfox]

I'd be more interested in a match-making system that ranks players by how the complete raid/dungeon.
Examples:
-If you get through and your DPS is above 40% of the group's average you get 100%.
-If you enter and then sit at the entrance until you get booted then you get 10%.
... and so on.
Then after say 50 games you get matched with players in the same bracket as you.

[Battlebeard]

Still salty random people dont carry your alts?

System like that can never work? Why? Because when the tunnel vision assa rogue on imonar doesnt get out fast enough with the sleep canister and then gets dispelled while still close to some melees, they are gonna be ‘punished’ for being slept for long time and dropping on dps, eventhough 2 other people fucked

No, that would not affect the system as I described at all. As it only measure when people do their job or fail it. If someone blow up 2 dps, those dps didn't do anything wrong, so they would recieve no punishment. After all, this system I wrote about would NOT judge DPS/HPS etc. So a lack of DPS would not affect the skill rating at all.

[JackWest]

No, that would not affect the system as I described at all. As it only measure when people do their job or fail it. If someone blow up 2 dps, those dps didn't do anything wrong, so they would recieve no punishment. After all, this system I wrote about would NOT judge DPS/HPS etc. So a lack of DPS would not affect the skill rating at all.

I love it how you contradict yourself: "I am 100% for a skill system, that besides DPS..." which INCLUDES dps, then you say how not being able to do any damage for close to half a minute, wont affect your "score"? Also, on half the bosses "avoiding damage" is actually the person who gets the ability moving to the right place. Third, "Encounter-interactions, like clicking things, entering portals" means ppl who go into portal on Hasabel will have "higher score", so then you end up matched with only classes that go there, and you dont have the damage for adds

Moreover, "automated" queue systems are bad for MMOs. Look what happened with introduction to lfr/lfg. I actualkly miss the times when you knew the ppl "around you", aka on your realm coz you had good idea who's asshole, who's terrible player, who know's what he is doing. Now? Ppl keep linking achievements to show they know the raid, and 9/10 its either fake achievement or boost(i've seen that plenty of times). We used to pug a lot of ppl for antorus while we were building roster and most ppl who linked curve were failing on every mechanic

But, I dont know why I am explaining this to a guy who bought HC boost and does normal only ever since

[Deleted]

Moreover, "automated" queue systems are bad for MMOs. Look what happened with introduction to lfr/lfg. I actualkly miss the times when you knew the ppl "around you", aka on your realm coz you had good idea who's asshole, who's terrible player, who know's what he is doing. Now? Ppl keep linking achievements to show they know the raid, and 9/10 its either fake achievement or boost(i've seen that plenty of times). We used to pug a lot of ppl for antorus while we were building roster and most ppl who linked curve were failing on every mechanic

But, I dont know why I am explaining this to a guy who bought HC boost and does normal only ever since

Boosts and fake achievements are really a thing. I don't link anything when I apply to a pug. We are 2-4 people and what gets you in is "all chars multi clear experience and pantheon trinkets". No curve or any other achievement linked, just that. And we clear every week on 2-3 chars. Most of the time the group goes from Garothi to Argus, 1 in 10 disbands @coven or aggramar.

It´s the 10th ID in Antorus, you can get curve with a lucky punch in this time. So linking that is worth nothing. Just apply to the "don't link anything" or "wait while I form group" raids and you are fine.

[Ponky]

@Battlebeard

The way you describe the system for "skill level" is so wrong on so many levels it's absurd. System like this will never work. And why do you describe this system as if only the DPS players need it? How do you skill the healers and tanks then? Who don't interrupt nor stun anything? One healer going into hasabel portals will be amazing while others are trash? And don't tell me about "assigning roles" because people in PuG will never bother to assign anything and people in mythic groups will need to extend their raid times by two extra hours to fill in this huge list with all the roles for every single boss. I don'r really see the point of this system anyway because it's impossible to implement and it's useless to mythic teams since they already have their ways to establish who's good and bad, and also useless for normal pugs since you can do f*** all in normal and still clear it. So basically you want to make this system to be used in HC? Well forget it since PuG leaders will never bother to fill in huge lists for every encounter when they can fill the group with overgeared people and clear it anyway.

[Very Tired]

You do know HPS isn't what defines a good healer, right?

[KaPe]

It always amazes me how some people don't realize just how complex such rating system would have to be. It would have to be programmed separately for each and every boss. Sort of like WCL "problems" tab, except much, *much* more detailed and hard to program.

The system would also need to know if a random "mistake" was caused by player being bad, temporary lag, raid leader planning for them to take some extra damage in order to maximize dps, someone else doing something wrong, healer being slow with dispel, tank moving out of range. What about healers? You have someone specifically designed to watch group X, which is crucial part of boss strategy, but means his numbers will be much lower. Or maybe they need to hold back on casts to immediately dispel something raid wiping. Wait, did boss just kil someone with frontal attack? Was it because of a tank or someone stood in wrong spot? What is "wrong spot" anyway? What if certain groups have different "wrong spots"? I mean, even on Argus you have some groups going left and the other going right. *Obviously* one of them is wrong.

Even just doing the former, static "rating" would be an enormous amount of work. The latter, with smart recognition of "bad play"? If you can do that, then congratulations, you're one step away from designing a true AI. Go work on that instead of wasting time with a "skill rating system" in an MMO.

[Deleted]

Part of the fun of an MMO is exploring, wiping, learning, sometimes having a good group, sometimes having a bad group....in other words...THE JOURNEY.

Why the hell would anyone invent a rating that:
1) Removes the journey element more than it is already - way way too much focus on the DESTINATION.
2) Creates potential for discrimination and abuse.

[Battlebeard]

I love it how you contradict yourself: "I am 100% for a skill system, that besides DPS..." which INCLUDES dps, then you say how not being able to do any damage for close to half a minute, wont affect your "score"? Also, on half the bosses "avoiding damage" is actually the person who gets the ability moving to the right place. Third, "Encounter-interactions, like clicking things, entering portals" means ppl who go into portal on Hasabel will have "higher score", so then you end up matched with only classes that go there, and you dont have the damage for adds

Moreover, "automated" queue systems are bad for MMOs. Look what happened with introduction to lfr/lfg. I actualkly miss the times when you knew the ppl "around you", aka on your realm coz you had good idea who's asshole, who's terrible player, who know's what he is doing. Now? Ppl keep linking achievements to show they know the raid, and 9/10 its either fake achievement or boost(i've seen that plenty of times). We used to pug a lot of ppl for antorus while we were building roster and most ppl who linked curve were failing on every mechanic

But, I dont know why I am explaining this to a guy who bought HC boost and does normal only ever since

Well, first off, I didn't buy any boost for anything and secondly, I raided hardcore entire WoW, pretty much up to late WoD, where I started playing casually, so even though I only raid normal right now, my regular envoirment is Mythic raids or HC as it was called before Mythic etc, so I do get the gesture of what you speak of.

And, yes, of course the system has flaws, cause you know, it's just an idea at a very early stage. The point is not HOW it works but rather that some kind of similar system is needed. How to actually make it work is anotehr question.

[Nutri]

First comes the "LFM to <place>, ilvl 960+ have AOTC and Skillrating 9+".

Then in addition to what we already have with "WTS AOTC, get your loot and achievement" comes the "WTS Skillrating boost 9+, you can stand in the corner and not die, /w for price".

[Ponky]

^ what the poster above says basically. This system would not only add another layer of ridiculous requirement to join the PuG raid but would also become another market for various boosters, so no matter what you add you will never be guaranteed that the person you are inviting did not buy all of these things.

[Halwyn]

No, that would not affect the system as I described at all. As it only measure when people do their job or fail it. If someone blow up 2 dps, those dps didn't do anything wrong, so they would recieve no punishment. After all, this system I wrote about would NOT judge DPS/HPS etc. So a lack of DPS would not affect the skill rating at all.

Your 'system' is full of holes to start with. As will any other that tries to do it. Here are just few examples from the top of my head, and I'm not even close to considering myself a "hardcore PvE player".

Interrupts? Good luck getting your "skill level" screwed over JUST by having a Protection Paladin in the group. Oh, and also you're supposed to let Demon Hunters interrupt first, as well as letting Sephuz-wearing spec to proc it (looking at you, Shadow Priests). And there must be enough casts for everyone. Which isn't the case.

Soaking? There are classes and specs that are plain better at this, than the rest (classic - Rogue). So good you're actually encouraged to use those and let the others just dps/heal, increasing your raid performance overall. But oh, "skill rating" will start to suffer, everyone stand in Armageddons immediately, let's have a raid covered with DoTs. Skill raitng, everyone!

Target swapping? Some classes are a world better at switching than the others. There isn't a thing I can do with the adds on M Varimathras as Affliction, other than hope two Drain Soul ticks will come through, does that make me a less skilled player than an Elemental Shaman that can toss up to 10 mil damage with a single spell onto it?

Stuns and CC? It is tactic and setup that defines when it is "needed", not some system. Not to mention DR on PvE stuns, and an abundance of those, so it'll lead to another form of padding for "Skill level". As if this game needed more whoring and toxicity.

Avoiding damage? I'm literally catching 80% of the green voidzones on M Kin'garoth intermission with my face. Just because I'm an Affliction Warlock, with no healer around, so I'm the person in charge of my survivability, and I'm tasked with dealing as much damage as I can to that robot. I don't die, I do damage to this thing, am I still a "bad player" in eyes of your system, or we're talking tactic-based adjustments? You do realize different guilds utilize different tactics, right?

'Stupid" deaths? So if in the same Kin'garoth pull the random sphere spawns screws me over, and I have to decide between getting a Diabolic Bomb blown up or stepping into Ruiner?.. Guess I'm a shitty player deciding to die by myself in Ruiner, rather than kill a few people with that bomb explosion. Silly me.

List goes on. Warcraftlogs is flawed. So is Raider.IO. So is your "skill-based" system. It's just the way this game works.