RET in BfA - Holy Power / Judgment question

[Kuriyama]

Two abilities were datamined in the alpha.

http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=217058/judgment-strike

http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=198036/...trike#comments

Okay, first ability "Judgment Strike" mentions Crusader's Justice. Tooltip error or another new ability?
Also Templar's Strike...what. Cast time? 40 yard rang? Replaces CS? What in the hecking heck?

It looks like they're going to play around with Ret a bit. I have zero hopes for HP or Colossal Smash gameplay being removed though. I'll sit back and see what they do, as I'd like to play my main since TBC.

[Tokas]

I feel the same. I've been retting since early TBC, and it's not going to change now. It's the only class/spec I truly enjoy... and I've never enjoyed it as much as in Legion.

I envy you, really

[Gloriandus]

Two abilities were datamined in the alpha.

http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=217058/judgment-strike

http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=198036/...trike#comments

"From Range"

This is where someone is supposed to say "4th paladin spec CONFIRMED" - ranged DPS paladin

[Swampmoose]

combo points stay then, ok bye paladins

/wave

There is nothing wrong with Holy Power and it only improved the class when it was added. Resource generators and resource spenders eliminate face rolling. I know people desperately want to return to those days, but it isn't going to happen. Judgement debuff certainly needs improvement though. It only works comfortably with enough haste and on single target fights. Low haste and needing to swap targets frequently makes it awkward and difficult to manage, no matter how good you are. If something can't be used effectively with good play, it needs correcting.

[Ulthane]

Okay, first ability "Judgment Strike" mentions Crusader's Justice. Tooltip error or another new ability?
Also Templar's Strike...what. Cast time? 40 yard rang? Replaces CS? What in the hecking heck?

It looks like they're going to play around with Ret a bit. I have zero hopes for HP or Colossal Smash gameplay being removed though. I'll sit back and see what they do, as I'd like to play my main since TBC.

I just have a sneaky guess that they are boggling their minds for new things for the spec to do while adhering to the beloved Holy Power they want to keep us with. It feels they are going to be gung ho about this Judgment mechanic and the Holy Power so the new talents and abilities better reflect that model better than current. My only gripe with Legion was abilities and talents that did not compliment this style.

[Fargus]

Holy Power has never been a problem. It worked well enough when all non-finishers generated Holy Power.

I think it's restrictive and unoriginal. If they do keep it, then get rid of CS.

[Deleted]

if you are unhappy, go to official forums and be as vocal as you can, right now is the best time to show them what we want and what we want removed... hf, I gave up for decent changes after so many years of false hopes and promises...

[Freighter]

/wave

There is nothing wrong with Holy Power and it only improved the class when it was added. Resource generators and resource spenders eliminate face rolling. I know people desperately want to return to those days, but it isn't going to happen. Judgement debuff certainly needs improvement though. It only works comfortably with enough haste and on single target fights. Low haste and needing to swap targets frequently makes it awkward and difficult to manage, no matter how good you are. If something can't be used effectively with good play, it needs correcting.

If I wanted to play a rogue, I'd play a rogue and not a paladin.

[Deleted]

The only changes to ret are longer cooldowns on our rotational abilities, longer cooldown on hand of freedom, longer cooldown on steed, wake of ashes is a talent and our traits are all gone so crusade is 20 seconds instead of 30 seconds. GG Blizz.

Wake of Ashes CD is up to 45 seconds aswell.

But, i am assuming they haven't made any changes on Ret yet. Theres some new abilities datamined aswell, so i'm expecting changes.

[Swampmoose]

If I wanted to play a rogue, I'd play a rogue and not a paladin.

Ah yes...because two classes generate a resource, they are identical. Lol. Sorry, we're not going back to the days of face-rolling. I know it's tough, but you'll manage.

[Freighter]

Ah yes...because two classes generate a resource, they are identical. Lol. Sorry, we're not going back to the days of face-rolling. I know it's tough, but you'll manage.

You know, they could make another system which has a proper rotation without giving paladins combo points, right?

[Swampmoose]

You know, they could make another system which has a proper rotation without giving paladins combo points, right?

Do you plan to make a point about why holy power is bad for the class or is your only complaint that another class uses something similar, even though the classes are hardly the same?

[Samitsu]

They almost nailed ret pala in WoD. It was sooo much more fun, even with its bad damage outside wings and horrible RNG.

Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, Final Verdict with its divine storm synergy, Judgements that looked cool and gave you a short sprint. Mastery that actually was a damage increase other than during a specific window, and was fun to stack.

All this just made for a way more fun paladin.
Also speed of light was a more visually pleasing and buffed sprint rather than mounting a horse out of nowhere for 3 seconds.

God I hate the current paladin. The guys who made all these changes should lose their jobs.

[Reith]

You know, they could make another system which has a proper rotation without giving paladins combo points, right?

At some level, there will always be a secondary resource system. This isn't Wrath. If you want Wrath, go to a private server or something. Maybe they could make Holy Power a higher point system to differentiate it somewhat, but to outright scrap it? That's never going to happen.

[Eurytos]

/wave

There is nothing wrong with Holy Power and it only improved the class when it was added. Resource generators and resource spenders eliminate face rolling. I know people desperately want to return to those days, but it isn't going to happen. Judgement debuff certainly needs improvement though. It only works comfortably with enough haste and on single target fights. Low haste and needing to swap targets frequently makes it awkward and difficult to manage, no matter how good you are. If something can't be used effectively with good play, it needs correcting.

I've always like the Holy Power overhaul they did. Wrath ret was great, but I agree the change made the spec better. Also, those that think ret and rogue are similar because they have similar resources are just wrong. Every rogue spec plays differently than ret plays. Inquisition was similar to SnD when those existed, that was more similar gameplay than combo points/holy power. Additionally, rogues can use a finisher with any amount of cp, we can only ever use three, thats a big difference.

Holy Power is great, Divine Purpose is great. Zealotry was a cool talent when that existed. I actually quite enjoy the way this tier and last tier effect HP generation, making a finisher cost less, or increasing the generation of HP from BoJ. Without holy power, you don't get these interesting interactions that subtly change how you play. Wake of Ashes is also a great ability, and will make a good talent(though I have significant issues with what talents are on what row, resource generation shouldnt be on the same row as Avenging Wrath modifiers, this is bad).

Nonetheless, the main problem with ret is its Mastery. Its not fun. In terms of gameplay, its worse than Hand of Light ever was. Sure, Hand of Light was mindless and pretty much just a flat dmg increase, and I get why they wanted to go away from it, but I'd much rather it than what we have now. They gotta think long and hard about this mastery, and what interesting thing they can come up with to replace it. I have no doubt it will be changed, its just a matter of when. Probably not on BfA launch, it could be a late change half way through, or we just wait our turn and we get a couple big changes for the following expac, but it will change as every thing eventually does.

But still, of all the things I would like to see done with ret, which are numerous, some legit, some probably just nostalgia, #1 is a change to our mastery. This colossus judgment has got to go.

[Deleted]

Both very likely to stay; as they said they are not making major changes to current iterations.

What we are seeing on the other hand is that talents will be overhauled:
- it's looking like 1 row will be dedicated to altering Crusader strike (Fires of Justice/Judgement strike/templar's strike?)
- 1 row might end up being dedicated to mobility (2 steeds, lower hand CDs paired with new 30% sprint on HoF, flat out movement increase based on HoPo?)
- the last row has to change (WoA is likely a placeholder; and will not be accepted by the player-base)

My hopes:
- wings duration increased to 28/30 seconds
- 1st row gets redone with actual choice (90% of us use the friggin' passive increase nowadays)
- 1 row of talents for CS as above (TFoJ, JS, TS)
- 1 row for movement speed as above (2 steeds, lower "sprint" CD, HoPo based speed increase)
- 1 row dedicated to healing (Judgement of Light / Word of Glory / Justicar's Vengeance)
- WoA gets baked into the spec
- Blessed hammers gets baked in (shared CD with BoJ) and replaced with a talent which makes HoJ/BH generate 3 HoPo instead of 2.

[Swampmoose]

I've always like the Holy Power overhaul they did. Wrath ret was great, but I agree the change made the spec better. Also, those that think ret and rogue are similar because they have similar resources are just wrong. Every rogue spec plays differently than ret plays. Inquisition was similar to SnD when those existed, that was more similar gameplay than combo points/holy power. Additionally, rogues can use a finisher with any amount of cp, we can only ever use three, thats a big difference.

Holy Power is great, Divine Purpose is great. Zealotry was a cool talent when that existed. I actually quite enjoy the way this tier and last tier effect HP generation, making a finisher cost less, or increasing the generation of HP from BoJ. Without holy power, you don't get these interesting interactions that subtly change how you play. Wake of Ashes is also a great ability, and will make a good talent(though I have significant issues with what talents are on what row, resource generation shouldnt be on the same row as Avenging Wrath modifiers, this is bad).

Nonetheless, the main problem with ret is its Mastery. Its not fun. In terms of gameplay, its worse than Hand of Light ever was. Sure, Hand of Light was mindless and pretty much just a flat dmg increase, and I get why they wanted to go away from it, but I'd much rather it than what we have now. They gotta think long and hard about this mastery, and what interesting thing they can come up with to replace it. I have no doubt it will be changed, its just a matter of when. Probably not on BfA launch, it could be a late change half way through, or we just wait our turn and we get a couple big changes for the following expac, but it will change as every thing eventually does.

But still, of all the things I would like to see done with ret, which are numerous, some legit, some probably just nostalgia, #1 is a change to our mastery. This colossus judgment has got to go.

Good post. The interaction between tier sets and holy power makes for a nice shift from tier to tier in some cases. It will be interesting to see what they do with the lack of tier sets in BFA. Hopefully they can weave in some similar things to still keep things fresh from tier to tier.

As for judgement, I don't mind the debuff component even though it's pretty boring at it's core. It gives you something else to be aware of which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's the application of the debuff that needs to be fixed. If they keep it, there has to be a reliable way to reapply/spread the debuff without simply waiting on judgement CD. I certainly wouldn't care if it goes away but if it means dumbing the class down again, I'd rather they keep it and improve it.

[Eurytos]

Good post. The interaction between tier sets and holy power makes for a nice shift from tier to tier in some cases. It will be interesting to see what they do with the lack of tier sets in BFA. Hopefully they can weave in some similar things to still keep things fresh from tier to tier.

As for judgement, I don't mind the debuff component even though it's pretty boring at it's core. It gives you something else to be aware of which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's the application of the debuff that needs to be fixed. If they keep it, there has to be a reliable way to reapply/spread the debuff without simply waiting on judgement CD. I certainly wouldn't care if it goes away but if it means dumbing the class down again, I'd rather they keep it and improve it.

Maybe youre right. Maybe I'm being to critical of our current mastery without thinking on it more.

The spreading of it is a problem and the duration of the debuff might be the root cause of that. If the duration of the debuff is increased, the cd on Judgment decreased, maybe that could solve some issues.

I've never been a fan of debuffs that don't last a long time. Even back when sunder and curse of elements and such existed, they lasted a long time and they increased the dps of the whole raid. Short debuffs arent fun for anyone. The obvious way of solving this is not to debuff the target, but to put the buff on the player. Though, they have gone away from this too. As I mentioned, Slice and Dice and Inquisition don't exist anymore. We still get buffs from legendaries, trinkets, etc. and those are short and they increase our dmg, but we dont really have the maintenance buffs anymore. Empowered Seals was like this, and they took it away.

But I've always favored them. I think Empowered Seals is a great talent. Some folks like it, others would rather a different style, which is why its a talent its not forced on you. I never disliked Inquisition, i think that would be a good talent too. In fact, EmpSeals and Inquisition in the same row is an ideal row i think, maybe the third talent is our current mastery. It would make finishers do more dmg on a judged target, and maybe they fix the duration to be longer. If the balance of these was close, I think you would see a lot of use from all of them, outside mythic raids. I don't raid mythics, I'm not min-maxing every single thing. I'm doing the best I can and my guild clears heroics, but if EmpSeals was only slightly worse but I had more fun playing it, or maybe I was jsut better at it and I did do more dmg with it depsite a sim to the contrary, I'd take it. I dont think I'm the only one like this.

Furthermore, as I've been saying the last several months in the pally forums, I think the best place for playstyle decision making is in the talent tree. Balance of the talents is of course paramount, they gotta be close. But let the player decide, through talent choices, how they like to play. Lots of folks have voiced their opinion that they like the current judgment mastery, some of us never disliked inquisition, others liked Emp Seals, or maybe they just pick a flat damage increase to TV because its easier. The core of ret is holy power right now, and thats not going away. Build around that. Let talent choices determine playstyle more so than game designers. And, again, I say this once more, all the abilities are there, we've had them in the past, just make them talents. This is not a massive overhaul of the spec, its just making the talent tree more diverse.

If our current mastery became a talent of some sort, that still leaves the problem of coming up with an interesting mastery. I think there are a lot of smart people that can come up with something cool.

[ScatteredBWL]

http://www.wowhead.com/news=282144/c...th-build-26095

The new changes ladies and gents, back to slot machine we go! Old mastery and all!

[Nahela]

No more colossus smash style mastery is a huge step in the right direction for the class actually being fun to play, glad to see that change.