BFA is the first expansion where we lose more than we gain.

[korijenkins]

- "We lose Tiersets" Good thing, locked items never to be replaced
- "We lose legendaries" Good thing, locked items never to be replaced
- "Artifact weapons are gone" The interesting passives and skills should be made baseline/talents/azerite
- "Visual diversity will be gone" Tier visuals are not going anywhere, only the tier set bonuses

Tier sets worked just fine for 14 years. They weren't a problem until Blizzard started making shit set bonuses.

Also, hate to break it to you, but visual diversity IS gone. No more unique sets for each class, simply a raid set like we had for ToC, which was probably the least popular tier overall.

Instead of making up milquetoast defenses for the billion dollar greed machine that is Blizzard, how about you actually think about the recent trends of WoW.

1. Introduce a new feature.
2. Water it down in subsequent expansion.
3. Remove it after.

We saw this with legendaries, garrisons, challenge mode dungeons, artifacts (which are in step 2 of the trend).

Instead of acknowledging those things, you ignore it and tell people that are actually paying attention to Alpha changes that they are "ill informed" or "wrong" or you simply say "no".

[ReVnX]

Instead of acknowledging those things, you ignore it and tell people that are actually paying attention to Alpha changes that they are "ill informed" or "wrong" or you simply say "no".

Where do I say people are wrong? I'm giving my opinion

[Swizzle]

We lose 20 passive traits that once obtained could not be changed or removed.

We get at least 9 traits that we can choose out of 27 every tier.

It's just combining tier bonuses, legendary effects and artifact traits into one system.

We have not, however, heard anything about the process of getting Azerite gear and the system in which the traits are chosen. All we know is that they won't be random like the crucible so if you get two versions of the same item, they'll both have the same traits, the only difference that can exist would be ilvl. However, Blizzard has not communicated whether the bonuses available will change throughout the expansion and what they will be. So far the ones they've shown were things each class already had, just reintroduced through a new UI.

Here's the thing. People hate how good Arcano Crystal was, but the same issue can exist through Azerite gear. What if an ilvl 300 Helm has all BiS traits and every ilvl upgrade you get after the fact has terrible ones? You're still locked into that one item due to traits.

Also, there's four slots locked next expansion; helm, neck, shoulder, and chest, so it's not much different than a current 4 piece set bonus.

[Soulwind]

We have not, however, heard anything about the process of getting Azerite gear and the system in which the traits are chosen. All we know is that they won't be random like the crucible so if you get two versions of the same item, they'll both have the same traits, the only difference that can exist would be ilvl. However, Blizzard has not communicated whether the bonuses available will change throughout the expansion and what they will be. So far the ones they've shown were things each class already had, just reintroduced through a new UI.

Here's the thing. People hate how good Arcano Crystal was, but the same issue can exist through Azerite gear. What if an ilvl 300 Helm has all BiS traits and every ilvl upgrade you get after the fact has terrible ones? You're still locked into that one item due to traits.

Also, there's four slots locked next expansion; helm, neck, shoulder, and chest, so it's not much different than a current 4 piece set bonus.

I'd imagine the best Azerite pieces will always come from raids, and either they're disabled for PvP, or PvP has its own Azerite gear with better traits for PvP. Maybe both.

Now, the possibility of, say, a helmet from the last raid having better traits than the one that drops in the current one is real. It already happens with tier bonuses. Blizzard will just have to buff or nerf those traits as content is released, which is what they've always done.

As for them locking slots, true, they do, but...

Four is less than six, and half of eight. Which is the current amount of locked slots because of tier bonus and legendaries.

That's not counting the artifact weapon or the trinket from Argus, either.

4p t21 + 2p t20 + 2 legs + artifact + trinket = 10 potentially locked slots. More than half.

[Maduk]

We're not really getting much back though. We are losing quite a bit however.

How do you know?
Do you already have the beta client?
Currently nothing is final and many classes have placehholders.

[Swizzle]

I'd imagine the best Azerite pieces will always come from raids, and either they're disabled for PvP, or PvP has its own Azerite gear with better traits for PvP. Maybe both.

Now, the possibility of, say, a helmet from the last raid having better traits than the one that drops in the current one is real. It already happens with tier bonuses. Blizzard will just have to buff or nerf those traits as content is released, which is what they've always done.

As for them locking slots, true, they do, but...

Four is less than six, and half of eight. Which is the current amount of locked slots because of tier bonus and legendaries.

That's not counting the artifact weapon or the trinket from Argus, either.

4p t21 + 2p t20 + 2 legs + artifact + trinket = 10 potentially locked slots. More than half.

I'd say currently it's a toss between M+ and raids giving the best possible Azerite gear since they seem to be pushing the former very heavily thanks in part to M+ Invitational. So you have the possibility of capping out all three items the first time you clear a decent key. Keep in mind that traits carry through, so you can get a M+2 piece early on in the expansion that gives BiS traits and then carry that through till you get a M+ 15 or so. Even then, if the bonuses are worth a lot more than ilvl, you can see people getting the best pieces from LFR (has neither been confirmed nor denied to drop Azerite gear) and never stepping foot into a Heroic or Mythic raid.

But again, the system itself isn't bad if it introduced NEW things, but due to balancing issues I can understand why it doesn't. As of now, Frost Mages literally lose EVERYTHING they gained in Legion with no compensation, and having to grind out random drops to potentially get those traits back is not what I consider character progression.

This is the first expansion where our characters actively get weaker and seemingly forget things they've learned over the years, and it is going to feel weird.

- - - Updated - - -

How do you know?
Do you already have the beta client?
Currently nothing is final and many classes have placehholders.

That is not a valid argument, and never has been. If people don't voice concerns, then what is in now CAN become final. Do people not remember how much Warlocks, Hunters, Paladins, Warriors, etc complained in previous Alphas/Betas only to be told that their concerns aren't based on anything final, only to see those concerns be shipped into the final product?

AS OF RIGHT NOW, many classes are losing quite a bit with the potential to gain some of it back. That's not right for a progression based RPG. If you don't let them know, then Blizz will think its fine.

[Gurluas]

Hunters are losing pet freedom, apparently pet families are being tied down to cunning, tenacity and ferocity again. And pets being locked to the spec by family

It's gonna be like Wotlk again, where people keep telling me to get a wolf because a Dragonhawk isn't good for raiding, ugh.

[Deleted]

Personally I hated legendaries. If you were unlucky it could take months/year to get the BiS legs and just gimp yourself if you have bad luck while some got the best from a random chest the first hour they hit 110, thats just a bad system.

I didnt really like weapons either tbh because if you wanted to put AP in your off spec it felt like you were gimping yourself by not puting it in your main spec. The grind were crazy compared to how it was now.
Personally I love to get a weapon from a boss and thats it. With that you can farm items for other specs or characters and not feel like you gimp yourself.

[korijenkins]

- We lose Tiersets.
So what. M+ is taking over so this basically put Tier into M+ since Tier bonuses are on the neck piece. Good change. I hated doing M+ and getting gear I couldn't use because the slot was ate up by something I cant replace till the next raid Tier.

- We lose legendaries which where a nice way to customize classes.
So what. These had the same effect as Tier sets. I'd rather Blizz just added an extra column-or-row to our talent trees with "Legendary" Talents we could select as we unlocked them via a simple grind of some sort (no rng).

- Artifact weapons are gone
Good. Horrible system. Relics were bad. Instead of getting a good weapon drop, we had to get three good relic drops PLUS Titanforge. It was a bad system. AP should have just been used to increase weapon Ilvl and bake the traits into the class. Blizzard just over complicated a good system.

- We trade in 20+ passives that completely changed how a class worked
Bake them into the class.... that's hard

- We lose effects
Bake them into the class... that's hard

- Visual diversity will be gone.
What? New class sets are so ugly anyways people transmog to older better looking stuff anyways.

- Many classes class identity will suffer greatly from this.
Class identity is fine. So is Spec identity, which has been the issue for awhile, not class identity.

- No level 120 talents, no "new" talents
How is that a bad thing? I'd rather the class/spec feel complete as I'm leveling, so that I can get the feel for it as I level, rather than have a new spell dropped on my face as soon as I hit max level. If the spec is complete and works from 110 to 120, why change anything?

Considering tiers 20 and 21 were considered the best in years, your argument is invalid. Improvements in the engine have allowed them to make better and better sets, and just when they finally started, they immediately stop and take the laziest route possible. Visual diversity will be gone. All your other defenses of Blizzard are milquetoast at best and scream of someone thats desperately trying to justify why they still play this bad game.

[Logwyn]

Also, hate to break it to you, but visual diversity IS gone. No more unique sets for each class, simply a raid set like we had for ToC, which was probably the least popular tier overall.

Visual diversity? Like the way our character looks? They are removing transmog? I havn't hear that they were..... So how are we loosing "visual diversity"? Who cares if they have one set for all plate wears? I've always said they should remove the imgage from gear and just have drops that increase stats/ilvl or items that you can craft other items to raise stats of a slot. Then you can just get images from crafting or drops... and just transmog how you want to look....

How are we loosing visual diversity??

[Anaphaze]

Tier sets worked just fine for 14 years. They weren't a problem until Blizzard started making shit set bonuses.

set bonuses were always shit. Resto druids had a t6 set bonus that buffed healing touch when they couldn't use HT in tree form. Almost every vanilla set bonus is garbage.

[Raugnaut]

Tier bonuses can be done in a different way - For instance, upon having 2 pieces of gear (Period) from a certain raid, you unlock the set bonus for that raid - And so on for the 4th bonus. This would enable great gear flexibility (ANY piece from the raid will work for set bonus, rather then just a few specific pieces from a few specific bosses), and still allow us to keep set bonuses for the boost.

I will miss quite a few legendary bonuses for sure.

In terms of passive, that's basically max-lvl balancing, NOT lvling balancing. With that being said, Artifacts are a bit TOO much tied to class power currently. As an example, a lvl 100 Frost mage will deal MORE damage by simply spamming Flurry, unless they have more then 80% mastery bonus. Too much of the specs power is tied to the artifact weapon, so if you don't have the various bonuses unlocked currently, it's just more single-target dps to spam Flurry - Even Fingers of Frost, Brain Freeze doesn't make up for the damage difference between Frostbolt and Flurry, you need a LOT of mastery.

In addition, the Artifact Weapon has, quite simple, caused inflation in how much raid damage is going out. Note that Artifact Weapons currently provide a 50% Stamina bonus - That's 2-5 MILLION extra health, depending on class and spec. Blizz has to balance around that, so Argus dishes out MORE damage, compared to if we had a normal stamina curve.

[MrTharne]

Hunters are losing pet freedom, apparently pet families are being tied down to cunning, tenacity and ferocity again. And pets being locked to the spec by family

It's gonna be like Wotlk again, where people keep telling me to get a wolf because a Dragonhawk isn't good for raiding, ugh.

All pets will do the same damage in BfA, (Ferocity will do more in Solo or if no one else in your group can bring Bloodlust/Hero but I'm pretty sure you won't have problem with that), only things that matters will be :

Ferocity :

Predator’s Thirst (3% leech)
Primal Rage (heroism/blood lust)

Cunning :

Pathfinding (8% movement speed)
Master’s Call

Tenacity :

Endurance Training (10% more health for Hunter and pet)
Survival of the Fittest (20% damage reduction for 6 sec for you and the pet)

+ the skill from the pet family which are either : Dodge, Damage Reduce, Dispell (most useful imo), Slow, Mortal Wound or BRez.

Least useful is Ferocity, most useful is Tenacity...and Dragonhawk will be Tenacity in BfA. Rejoice.

[Deleted]

- "We lose Tiersets" Good thing, locked items never to be replaced

Mechanics/gameplay wise I'd have to agree. A set bonus isn't that awesome. And it can withold you from using a better piece of gear simply because of that set bonus. I wouldn't miss Tier sets in that regard.

But visually we are losing a HUGE aspect of class identity. That is something that will bite them in the ass and they will probably revert in the expansion after BfA.

[Aggrophobic]

How do you know?
Do you already have the beta client?
Currently nothing is final and many classes have placehholders.

Not that many placeholder abilities at all, as far as we are aware.

- - - Updated - - -

We lose 20 passive traits that once obtained could not be changed or removed.

We get at least 9 traits that we can choose out of 27 every tier.

It's just combining tier bonuses, legendary effects and artifact traits into one system.

We lose 20 traits, 15 or so legendaries, 2-3 set bonuses and a few abilities and talents that are just pruned.
A bit more than your 20 there.

Thoes armor thingies that we are likely to go without for a long time are not going to make up for all that was just cut out. This pruning is worse than even the WoD one and that was catastrophic for the game and how enjoyable it was to play.

[Kithelle]

The legendary system flat out fucking sucked...you call it customizing but I call it getting screwed if you weren't extremely lucky...I've been playing on and off since launch and I've still yet to get a single BiS legendary on any of my 110's.

a month+ and still not a single legendary on my DH who I started playing again.

You act like passives are a big deal, well they aren't...a 10% boost to this attack means nothing when all you have to do is roll it into the ability base line

[Soulwind]

We lose 20 traits, 15 or so legendaries, 2-3 set bonuses and a few abilities and talents that are just pruned.
A bit more than your 20 there.

Thoes armor thingies that we are likely to go without for a long time are not going to make up for all that was just cut out. This pruning is worse than even the WoD one and that was catastrophic for the game and how enjoyable it was to play.

If you count all 15 legendaries and all set bonuses at once, then you should also count the 54-81 traits from two or three "tiers" of Azerite gear.

And that's just raids, if Mythic+ and PvP have their own Azerite pieces, the number could be much higher.

Azerite traits are a combination of:

- Legiondaries without RNG.

- Artifacts without AP grinding.

- Tier bonuses without titanforging.

[Soulfighter101]

If we go ahead and ignore the stat squish, which is something that comes down to personal taste since its just numbers:


- We lose Tiersets. Which isn't to say we lose sets, but rather the hit/miss set buffs that were either essential or completely missable.
- We lose legendaries which where an AWFUL way to customize classes. Legendary lost it's meaning so much that there probably wont be a legendary in BFA. Class strength shouldn't be based on how lucky you were with legendary drops in the last 3 months.

- Artifact weapons are gone. Artifact stats were absolutely useless once they were all unlocked, which was meant to happen right after level cap anyways. Stats will be baked into classes, or classes rebalanced without them.

- With artifact stats baked in, azerite armor replaces the roll of legendaries for that class customization.

- The effects that were essential to a class are going to be baked in, with artifact/legendary effects becoming baseline or talents.

- Visual diversity won't suffer because Transmog exists, ya silly. Class fantasy is still a thing they wanted to focus on, not to mention old stuff/legion artifact skins are still available appearances.

- Many classes class identity will suffer greatly from this. Instead of having to hope specific legendaries and waiting weeks for their artifact power to fill up, they'll just HAVE the stuff. so much suffering

- No level 120 talents, no "new" talents, no active effect from the azerite neck itself, no new spells for any class, nothing, NOTHING, except for the deluge of class fantasy abilities we're getting

I fixed it for you there

[Aggrophobic]

If you count all 15 legendaries and all set bonuses at once, then you should also count the 54-81 traits from two or three "tiers" of Azerite gear.

And that's just raids, if Mythic+ and PvP have their own Azerite pieces, the number could be much higher.

Azerite traits are a combination of:

- Legiondaries without RNG.

- Artifacts without AP grinding.

- Tier bonuses without titanforging.

Fair enough so 25-26 to 9 then, it's still a ridiculous prune in a game that desperately need more abilities, not less.

[Swizzle]

Azerite traits are a combination of:

- Artifacts without AP grinding.

What? You still have to grind Azerite to get the tiers, and it can drop from any mob randomly, so that's a poor comparison.