BFA is the first expansion where we lose more than we gain.

[Soulwind]

What? You still have to grind Azerite to get the tiers, and it can drop from any mob randomly, so that's a poor comparison.

The way I understand it, you unlock each tier of Azerite traits once, and those are unlocked for every new piece. At least for that tier.

Meaning you unlock the level one traits for the pieces you are wearing, but if you get a helm afterwards, it'll already have it's second row unlocked.

[Alpacapacino]

Tier sets wouldn't of been an issue if it wasn't for the fact that classes were being locked to not only the 4 set of the new tier but the 2 set of the previous tier. That's 6 pieces of loot that are essentially locked. on top of that 2 leggos. so that's 8 pieces of gear locked.

Removal of tier sets is honestly fine by me plus it's not like you won't have balance issues. we get azerite armor, whatever its called.

Honestly you are literally making a pointless thread. It's way too early to tell where the direction of BFA is going for Christ's sake. Balance will change, new content will be introduced etc etc etc... it's the same story every beta. You're literally complaining about nothing.

[Zyky]

- "We lose Tiersets" Good thing, locked items never to be replaced

This is the only thing I disagree with. Tier was the one thing raiding had to differentiate itself from Mythic+. Now raiding is further going to be abandoned by players because of how WF/TF work in Mythic+.

[Pyro1990]

The only thing that really concerns me is the loss of artifact abilities. Bm hunter are curently losing the titanstrike ability and while that is a pretty lengthy cooldown the spec already doesnt have many buttons to press. Frost DKs are losing sindragosa currently which must suck for a dk main. Paladins currently have to choose between their artifact ability and crusade. I just think it might suck having this Iconic ability you have used all of Legion just disapear.

[Alpacapacino]

This is the only thing I disagree with. Tier was the one thing raiding had to differentiate itself from Mythic+. Now raiding is further going to be abandoned by players because of how WF/TF work in Mythic+.

Simply not true the prestige of raiding is going nowhere. If you kept up with the Q and A you get azerite armor from raids. And I'm sure they will introduce new rewards to raiding. yet another ill-informed comment.

[Schattenlied]

- We lose Tiersets. While they tended to lock down slots in armor, they are still more interesting than "stamina crit and hast" on a slot.

I consider this a gain, we gain more freedom in how we gear instead of having 4-6 slots locked down because the tier set is mandatory... My ilvl 962 Ret is still using 2 ilvl 920 pieces from ToS because of the tier set bonus... I have 950s for both of those slots, with good stats, and they are both downgrades because of the loss of the set bonus...

- We lose legendaries which where a nice way to customize classes.

I also consider this a gain, just like tier sets, it was just gear slots locked down because the legendary there is mandatory... Not to mention that many classes felt gimped without their tier sets and legendaries because blizzard stupidly balanced the classes around the tier sets and legendaries instead of the tier sets/legendaries around the classes.

you find yourself often switching between them for different situations.

only a few specs actually do that.

but the idea itself was really really good.

No, it was flawed in both of the same ways tier sets were. If they were only utility effects, no throughput, it would be ok, but it's not.

- Artifact weapons are gone, and with them a million passives (remember, WoD had passives as well while you leveled up). This time around, there won't be any passives from leveling, and there wont be any passives from artifact weapons.

Also a gain, it should mean more of the things required to make the classes feel whole will be included in the class, not be locked behind a max level grind.

- We lose effects such as execute for Assa Rogues, Full Moon for owls, fall damage immunity for rogues, purgatory-lite for Fury warriors, Ebonbolt for mages

Ask for them to be baked in or made into talents if you like them so much.

One wonders how an elemental shaman will ever be able to do DPS without his legendary boots and gloves.

Easy, they will be rebalanced so that they don't need them.

sprint on leap for arms warriors

That is currently, in Legion, and in BfA, a talent, not an artifact trait.

- Visual diversity will be gone.

No it won't.

With no more artifact weapons, their transmogs are gone (old ones stay, obviously.)

You can transmog anything to the artifact weapon's apperance in BfA...

and with the removal of tiersets, i fear that every mail, leather, plate and cloth wearer will look the same, akin to Trial of Crusader tiersets.

I mean, you're aware that most people don't even use the current tier sets for transmog, right? Most people already have favorites that they use and are unlikely to change.

- Many classes class identity will suffer greatly from this. They feel incomplete and i HIGHLY doubt that 3 traits can change that.

- No level 120 talents, no "new" talents, no active effect from the azerite neck itself, no new spells for any class, nothing.

Many classes feel incomplete in Legion, right now, with maxed out artifacts.

[Zyky]

Simply not true the prestige of raiding is going nowhere. If you kept up with the Q and A you get azerite armor from raids. And I'm sure they will introduce new rewards to raiding. yet another ill-informed comment.

You get Azerite armor from Mythic + too, derp derp. Raiding has been at a heavy decline for a long time, you can say "ill-informed" but the facts are there with mythic guilds dying on a weekly basis. There's far less guilds in the mid-high end of raiding then there was 2 expansions ago, why? Because WoD and Legion raiding have had less and less incentive to partake in.

[Nevcairiel]

Blizzard has not communicated whether the bonuses available will change throughout the expansion

Actually they did mention at Blizzcon that they'll have the opportunity to add entirely fresh new ones for new tiers, since its entirely based on the item. So yeah, its quite likely to change from tier to tier, at least partially.

- - - Updated - - -

The way I understand it, you unlock each tier of Azerite traits once, and those are unlocked for every new piece. At least for that tier.

Meaning you unlock the level one traits for the pieces you are wearing, but if you get a helm afterwards, it'll already have it's second row unlocked.

Basically, you unlock certain levels on your Neck, like you did for your weapon, and items require a certain level of the necklace to unlock their Azerite traits (like the Crucible traits). The Neck-Level required is based on the item level. So once you unlocked enough levels for the current raid tier, you're good for now (as far as we know). Next Tier? Might need to put some more work into it.

[The Man in Room V]

Apparently, we lose first aid now unless you are a tailor.

[Raugnaut]

I fixed it for you there

I'm not seeing the free-talent legendaries anywhere on BfA.

Nor am I seeing ANY of the legendaries for ANY of the druid specs on BfA atm. No rage on Barkskin. No 75% more bonus on affinities. No lifebloom blooming ticks. No 3 stacks of Predatory Swiftness + free PS procs. No double energy bar. Nor even shit like Sephuz/Prydaz.

Granted, I haven't seen the Heart of Azeroth stuff either, so a bit too early to tell. But, honestly, if Heart of Azeroth is filled with !@#$ing filler traits like "Ability X has 10% more damage" or "Ability Y has 15% extra crit chance"... That will be bullshit. Filler shit in a limited system is never fun.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Losing 20+ passives that fundamentally change your spec is just not true. You're losing maybe 5 per spec, and several specs are retaining some of those. The vast majority of artifact traits were numbers changes or had no interaction, you just sometimes did more damage/healed more/mitigated more.

[Joodoc]

First, you constantly changed out legendaries. A hunter as example constantly switches between them in m+, same with warlocks.

Secondly, do you think the removal of tiersets changes anything? You get your BiS stat item and thats never gonna be replaced. But you lose set boni, and in return receive a stat stick that locks down the slot just as much because of its stats.

You do realize tier bonuses aren't gone, they just aren't class specific gear anymore. They are like the chronoshard from archway, 2 pieces that augment each other, and any slot pattern. It makes it so if you get an amazing TF shoulder and legs, you don't have to pick one of them so you can get the tier set because it is too powerful.

[kaintk]

i will miss my big attack with my frost dk legendary chest plate unless they add them to bfa... :O

legendary was good for that, giving you for certain spec a new big spell to push or new gameplay

[munkeyinorbit]

First, you constantly changed out legendaries. A hunter as example constantly switches between them in m+, same with warlocks.

Secondly, do you think the removal of tiersets changes anything? You get your BiS stat item and thats never gonna be replaced. But you lose set boni, and in return receive a stat stick that locks down the slot just as much because of its stats.

Since you haven't raided, let me tell you why tier was bad. The bonuses on a lot of classes were so good that replacing them with stuff 45 ilvl higher wasn't worth it. They would wait until they had the next tiers 2 or 4 piece to get the new bonuses. Occasionally they would hold onto the old 2 piece for a long time along with the new bonuses. This locks out 4-6 pieces of gear that automatically gets sharded/vendored. Even having the items in the loot table is a huge disappointment. Sure the bonuses were great and I will miss them but if everyone loses them then you do not lose any relative performance. It leads to less disappointment replacing gear between teirs and makes the game better. BiS stats are BiS stats. But 45 ilvl is 45 ilvl. I only hope that they fix the trinkets. Trinkets have to be better balanced. A 860 ilvl trinket should never compete with a 910 and a 910 should never compete with a 980. That's just fucking stupid and depressing.

[shaunika123]

We trade in 20+ passives that completely changed how a class worked or had nice small effects for THREE effects from our Azerite "tierset".

uhm what? can only speak from a rogue pov(sub esp)

but the only thing that fundamentally changed my class was finality, energetic stabbing, and the fall damage immune. those are 3 traits, maybe 4 if I count the extra evisc crit as one.

assa loses the vendetta CDR and energy refill (which it might retain as baseline, I don't know) and gets poison bomb as a talent, and loses surge of toxins, but really it didnt fundamentally change my class since it was basically envenom 2.0 and you played around it the exact same way you did envenom.


so yeah, you'll lose 3-4 stuff at most, so unless the azerite armor doesnt provide good replacement for those, I'm sceptical.

[Alpacapacino]

You get Azerite armor from Mythic + too, derp derp. Raiding has been at a heavy decline for a long time, you can say "ill-informed" but the facts are there with mythic guilds dying on a weekly basis. There's far less guilds in the mid-high end of raiding then there was 2 expansions ago, why? Because WoD and Legion raiding have had less and less incentive to partake in.

Actually i don't think that's true. high end raiding is on a decline because those kinds of gamers are harder and harder to find. And people to manage them and put in the incentive to do so has become less and less. There is a lot of management that's required of good mythic guilds. Let's find people to track attendance, loot spreadsheets, manage some kind of guild website, create an application for players to apply, create a culture for your raid group, do AA, making sure you're critically thinking during progression pulls and using logs to pinpoint issues in progression, manage a loot council etc. That's all stuff most people don't want to do. Very far in and between. I know because that is what I do. I micromanage everything for my raid group.

We might not be a world first guild but we are well progressed enough that people are interested. We are flooded with applicants everyday and more than half of them are not worth much. They don't have the experience, nor the mental fortitude to handle a few hundred wipes on a progression wall. They don't have the responsibility to do something like filling out their section of the loot spreadsheet, or show up on time, or just generally put in the time. And that's perfectly fine but don't expect to get in a good raiding guild with that kind of mentality. People fail to realize that a mythic raid group is a team not built on I. What i want from a raider is a competitive drive, strong mental fortitude, and the responsibility to do the small things asked of them, and thinking about the role they might play with mechanics.

I would also like to see the data on how many guilds are just dropping off the face of the earth because of the lack of "rewards". That's really not true, and in the end if you're mythic raiding for loot there is an underlying issue with that. You're in a PROGRESSION guild to kill bosses. Loot will eventually come. It's the interest in coming together, coordinating well and the feeling of killing a boss that has some kind of difficulty behind it. in reality those players have always been a minority, and if there is a drop off point at any time then it's a waiting game until the new pool of competitive players poor in.

You can say der, der all you want doesn't really solidify your arguments.

[andy123456]

statement like "BFA is the first expansion where we lose more than we gain" can only be made when bfa releases , it is pointless to compare bfa with other expansion as bfa is unfinished.

[Zyky]

Actually i don't think that's true. high end raiding is on a decline because those kinds of gamers are harder and harder to find. And people to manage them and put in the incentive to do so has become less and less. There is a lot of management that's required of good mythic guilds. Let's find people to track attendance, loot spreadsheets, manage some kind of guild website, create an application for players to apply, create a culture for your raid group, do AA, making sure you're critically thinking during progression pulls and using logs to pinpoint issues in progression, manage a loot council etc. That's all stuff most people don't want to do. Very far in and between. I know because that is what I do. I micromanage everything for my raid group.

We might not be a world first guild but we are well progressed enough that people are interested. We are flooded with applicants everyday and more than half of them are not worth much. They don't have the experience, nor the mental fortitude to handle a few hundred wipes on a progression wall. They don't have the responsibility to do something like filling out their section of the loot spreadsheet, or show up on time, or just generally put in the time. And that's perfectly fine but don't expect to get in a good raiding guild with that kind of mentality. People fail to realize that a mythic raid group is a team not built on I. What i want from a raider is a competitive drive, strong mental fortitude, and the responsibility to do the small things asked of them, and thinking about the role they might play with mechanics.

I would also like to see the data on how many guilds are just dropping off the face of the earth because of the lack of "rewards". That's really not true, and in the end if you're mythic raiding for loot there is an underlying issue with that. You're in a PROGRESSION guild to kill bosses. Loot will eventually come. It's the interest in coming together, coordinating well and the feeling of killing a boss that has some kind of difficulty behind it. in reality those players have always been a minority, and if there is a drop off point at any time then it's a waiting game until the new pool of competitive players poor in.

You can say der, der all you want doesn't really solidify your arguments.

Except the proof is there lol. Take 5 minutes to look, guilds aren't rough to run at all, I did it the last 2 expansions at a high level. The incentive isn't there, everyone raiding at a high level is saying it, and everyone is saying that's why they're burning out. That's why Midwinter's leadership quit, that's why Serenity decided to not bother accepting recruits after a few of their raiders got poached. Fact: the main incentive for raiding at a high level every expansion except for Legion has been the top notch gear. Fact: you're now able to get best possible gear without even putting in any effort. Fact: It doesn't make the raiding community feel valuable when they have nothing that sets them apart from others. Fact: You spend far more time doing Mythic progression than it takes to get full 960 or higher from Mythic +.

There's zero incentive for Mythic raiding right now, even the mount isn't worth much because guilds eventually sell the mounts which diminish the value of having it in the first place. The reason why you're struggling with recruitment is because of the incentive, many good players don't bother to raid anymore because they don't need to because of Mythic+. It all boils down to INCENTIVES, which raiding has none of. Yet you're required to put in a massive amount of effort for it, between the time investment of just progression and the grinding of Artifact Power and Legendaries(granted at this point anyone playing the whole expansion shouldn't need to worry about Legendaries but still a problem early on this expansion).

[HyperJay]

- "We lose Tiersets" Good thing, locked items never to be replaced
- "We lose legendaries" Good thing, locked items never to be replaced
- "Artifact weapons are gone" The interesting passives and skills should be made baseline/talents/azerite
- "Visual diversity will be gone" Tier visuals are not going anywhere, only the tier set bonuses

Id rather have armor locked in that does really cool things than have armor locked in that has a few small passive damage boosts cause my neck is on.

Legendaries and Tier took up slots yes but you changed them given situation, your Azerite Slots will be the new legendaries in that they have abilities and bis is still bis.

[Nevcairiel]

Id rather have armor locked in that does really cool things than have armor locked in that has a few small passive damage boosts cause my neck is on.

Does that include having to stick with 4 old pieces for one bonus, and even 50 ilvl lower then everything else? Because thats what tier does right now.