Burning of Teldressil Broadcast Text (Spoiler!!!)

[omeomorfismo]

And racism wasn't the driving factor leading to the "genocide" of the Darkspear.


That's not genocide, actually. You don't get to throw an arbitrary identifier onto a racial group, such as "veteran," and claim that because they were put at increased risk, they were genocided.


Was that genocide? There were still plenty of Blood/High Elves in Quel'thalas.


Valeera? You mean Vereesa? The one that belongs to the same racial group as those Blood Elves albeit with a different political stance? What a genocide!


Vol'jin could have made it out of that alive, had he not expressed disagreement with Garrosh's plans, "War Crimes" literally shows us the dialogue between Garrosh and Bloodrazor. Given that Vol'jin had already made threats of assassination and treason, and attended numerous "anti-Garrosh" meetings in secret, Garrosh was well within his right as Vol'jin's legitimate sovereign to order such an execution. Even Vol'jin states that the penalty for treason is death ("War Crimes").

The Darkspear Rebellion started after that. Regardless of what happened to Vol'jin, though, the Darkspear were still obligated to follow Garrosh (The Blood Oath states: "I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief").

Really though, to step back from specific examples, you seem to have two problems here:
A.) You're using the term genocide too loosely
B.) You're incorrectly assuming racism is the driving force behind these actions


No, segregation is not a big deal. Barring people of certain races from entering or occupying certain establishments, areas or districts doesn't do any physical harm to them. It's a restriction of their freedom, sure, but said freedom is granted by the state anyway, so any segregated group (especially within the Horde), can't claim rights against the state.

so vol'jin criticize garrosh, garrosh attempt to murder him, garrosh decide that the tribe is rebellious (even if they and vol'jin self still work for him), kor'kron occupied them and start to murder, and you are ok? even considering the oath applicable, because i repeat still vol'jin worked for him, only him should die. not the entire tribe. what garrosh and kor'kron committed is perfectly attemped genocide.

no, forsaken werent put in increased risk, they were expressely send to suicide only because they were forsaken. no orcs there were in these charges.
deliberately send to die part of an ethnic group is one of the definition of genocide. you don need the total annihilation, take bosnia where more or less the 6% (less than the 15% of the kael'thas army) of the population die, still it is refered as genocide.
and who cares about veressa being an helf, she still wanted to exterminated other belves, the discriminant for being a genocide is the intent, not the executor...

so you are suggesting that is incredible that black panthers rebelled against white americans? after all wasnt a big deal...
anyway segregation isnt only restriction of movement, but is having worse condition of life, like health and food, that surprisingly have more consequence than freedom restriction :|

[Wildberry]

so vol'jin criticize garrosh, garrosh attempt to murder him, garrosh decide that the tribe is rebellious (even if they and vol'jin self still work for him), kor'kron occupied them and start to murder, and you are ok? even considering the oath applicable, because i repeat still vol'jin worked for him, only him should die. not the entire tribe. what garrosh and kor'kron committed is perfectly attemped genocide.

Garrosh occupied the Echo Isles and put it under marital law after their treasonous leader was presumed to be assassinated. Martial law isn't genocide.

no, forsaken werent put in increased risk, they were expressely send to suicide only because they were forsaken. no orcs there were in these charges.

Master Apothecary Lydon ran his bony fingers through his tangle of hair. The roar from orc, tauren, and Forsaken alike overwhelmed the thunder.

--"Edge of Night," p5

deliberately send to die part of an ethnic group is one of the definition of genocide. you don need the total annihilation, take bosnia where more or less the 6% (less than the 15% of the kael'thas army) of the population die, still it is refered as genocide.

Bosnia was a hyper-politicized issue, though. Look at the aversion of state actors to term the Rwandan genocide as such.

and who cares about veressa being an helf, she still wanted to exterminated other belves, the discriminant for being a genocide is the intent, not the executor...

Dalaran was, at worst, ethnic cleansing. That isn't genocide, and racism wasn't even the driving factor. Also, it was more than just Vereesa, it was the Silver Covenant as well.

so you are suggesting that is incredible that black panthers rebelled against white americans? after all wasnt a big deal...

Since you're intent on making allusions to real life situations, I'll say this much: When you actually look at the numbers, and ignore "white racism" and "oppressed blacks" narratives, Jim Crow laws really didn't have an adverse effect on Black Communities. Segregation in the United States wasn't that bad. Segregation in Orgrimmar was even more harmless.

But given that irl Segregation is a contentious topic that would take a wall of text with citations every sentence, we really shouldn't derail the thread.

anyway segregation isnt only restriction of movement, but is having worse condition of life, like health and food, that surprisingly have more consequence than freedom restriction :|

The Darkspear weren't confined to Orgrimmar's Slums. They had the opportunity to relocate themselves to the Echo Isles. Darkspear Hold is no Orgrimmar, but it would seem that the Trolls there weren't exactly going without.

[Highwhale]

Looks like we gonna raid another Warchief.

[Syegfryed]

Looks like we gonna raid another Warchief.

nah

Like i said some time ago, i have almost certain they will bring up a redemption arc, crap or not, but they will bring, so, we not gonna kill her, she will not "answer" for nothing, i could even said she will ascend as an angel/valkyr. the alliance will not be much happy.

Anyway, everything still seems odd, there is no reason to burn down teldrassil if they want it, something must have happened to end like that, or some alliance guy burn like "ii rather this burn to the ground than let to the horde!" or it was a accident in te battle by alliance forces, but they will blame the horde once again.

But i give then props about making my theories wrong, Seems that we will not be the "bad guys" or the "misunderstood guys" like i tough, we will be both

[Doffen]

Are miners military personnel? No. Then they are civilians contractors. And Horde killed Dwarves to make them stop digging because these Dwarves were on Horde territory, not because they were digging per se.

This is Warcraft, not real life. The example is just an example that digging stuff in the game is kinda shady. Even if they were "civilians just minding their own business", they know what their orders is and where it comes from. If they wanted to stay alive, they should have left the stuff that the Alliance players wants, alone. Like real civilians do.

And besides, it's not the players fault that they have azerite in their backpacks

[Airwaves]

nah

Like i said some time ago, i have almost certain they will bring up a redemption arc, crap or not, but they will bring, so, we not gonna kill her, she will not "answer" for nothing, i could even said she will ascend as an angel/valkyr. the alliance will not be much happy.

Anyway, everything still seems odd, there is no reason to burn down teldrassil if they want it, something must have happened to end like that, or some alliance guy burn like "ii rather this burn to the ground than let to the horde!" or it was a accident in te battle by alliance forces, but they will blame the horde once again.

But i give then props about making my theories wrong, Seems that we will not be the "bad guys" or the "misunderstood guys" like i tough, we will be both

I don't think the horde was after the tree specifically. The horde has been trying for years to build a port at Zoram'Gar in Ashenvale on the west coast. The issue was night elven forces were not far away. But taking out their capital the horde can safely build that port. Then attack Feathermoon by sea. At least that makes the most military sense. And why Surfang supports it.

[Syegfryed]

I don't think the horde was after the tree specifically. The horde has been trying for years to build a port at Zoram'Gar in Ashenvale on the west coast. The issue was night elven forces were not far away. But taking out their capital the horde can safely build that port. Then attack Feathermoon by sea. At least that makes the most military sense. And why Surfang supports it.

they are not after the tree sure, but it would be useful, there is no logistic in burning

[Mehrunes]

Haha... yeah keep telling that to yourself ... maybe you believe it yourself one day.

Is that the last straw you hold?

What straw am I holding exactly?

Sylvanas pulled off a Perl Harbor on Teldrassil, nothing less.

Oh noes, Pearl Harbor, the worst atrocity in the history of humankind fer sure. You're also still ignoring the Alliance actually attacking first. Sylvanas' plans to attack still do not constitute an actual attack, because words are a thing.

I really dislike Sylvanas now due to the ping-ponging of her character and goals but she does have a point in a way. Orcs would be happy throwing their life away in the name of glory but she in her own bitchy way is telling him that he's taking his life for granted under the guise of honor.

Eh, given Alliance's unjustified attack in Stormheim, which led to fucking the Forsaken over, even though there was a Legion invasion going on, it's understandable she wants to deal with the warmongering Alliance once and for all. The main inconsistency here is the book snipped indicating she wanted to deal with Stormwind for a while. Because if that was the case, why did she sit out of the previous war after 4.0? If she actually aided Garrosh with more than token troops for the biggest campaigns the Horde would have won. And killing one Garrosh afterwards was less of a problem than dealing with a whole faction.

As for Saurfang, I think it's really something about wanting to sacrifice himself. He's old as fuck. Older than Brox was when he died, I think. And Brox was all gung ho about dying in combat like his war buddies. Saurfang stays behind in UC, he wants to be executed by Alliance rather than captured and then doesn't even want to be rescued and splits off from the Horde infiltration team.

The reasoning is not the same, but the pattern seems to be. Insert ruthless Warchief in the Horde clumsily, Warchief jumps into a war, does ruthless things that are questioned by their underlings, Warchief reacts badly to be being questioned, underlings turn on Warchief, roll credits for the Horde. Sylvanas isn't a raging racist, but taunting Saurfang about his son is barely better.

Still not the same as Garrosh. Garrosh jumped to war immediately, Sylvanas only a year after, when the world-ending threat has been dealt with. She also explains herself a fair deal beforehand. And, if my theory is correct, only berates Saurfang during the siege of Undercity, where his honor would cost more Horde lives than Sylvanas' cold pragmatism. Even then, she mocks his desire for death, not threatens him with gutting him like Garrosh did to Vol'jin, IIRC.

Really? She threatens Saurfang with raising him and his son as an Undead... she cares for herself, for nothing more. She is totally terrified of dying and will sacrifice the Horde and the entire world to safe herself.

"Honor means nothing to a corpse, Saurfang. You have the luxury of underestimating death, but it is something with which I am intimately familiar.
Maybe you don't care if your people die so long as it is honorable, but to me, this Horde is worth saving. Anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us.
So die your warrior's death, High Overlord Saurfang. It means little to me. Perhaps I will raise your broken body to serve me once more.
Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son."

So yeah ...

Words continue to be hard to Alliance players, it seems. She says nothing about raising Saurfang's son. She talks a great deal about the Horde's survival in other quotes. Hell, she does in what you quoted right here.

I find it kinda interesting that Sylvanas is focused on Kalimdor. One would assume, that Sylvanas would take out the target, that is the most dangerous to her, which is Stormwind.

I understand not going after Khaz'Modan and Azeroth and even going after Darnassus to a degree (Night Elves proven themselves to be weaklings that roll over without the rest of the Alliance to bail them out and now Alliance has no Theramore staging ground to distract the Horde like they did in Cata. But yeah, her focus should have been Lordaeron first and foremost. Blow up the Thandol Span and Alliance has no land route. And Forsaken participated very little in world affairs betwen 4.0 and 6.3. That's around four years. For a race that has no biological needs. Led by person who wants to avoid death. Lordaeron already is inaccessible from most sides (especially with blown Thandol Span), but it should have fortifications on top of fortifications by now. And then the Forsaken should deal with Aerie Peak.

[Deleted]

Anyway, everything still seems odd, there is no reason to burn down teldrassil if they want it, something must have happened to end like that, or some alliance guy burn like "ii rather this burn to the ground than let to the horde!" or it was a accident in te battle by alliance forces, but they will blame the horde once again.

But i give then props about making my theories wrong, Seems that we will not be the "bad guys" or the "misunderstood guys" like i tough, we will be both

Hihi hope is strong in this one.

Nope you guys will be the bad guys. I am 100% certain with that. Blizz is totally on the way of black/whiteing the story because they want the clear line in the conflict.
They want to go back to the Warcraft story and guess what in Warcraft the Horde has been the bad guys. That is why there even is war. The Horde tried to conquer Azeroth and Sylvanas tries the same, she even calls it "conquering Kalimdor".

So nope, you will be the bad guys hands down, but if you're lucky you get at least another rebellion with Saurfang to whash your hand clean after all that Garrsoh, Garrosh ...uhm I mean Sylvanas! Sylvanas!" chanting and cheering. So at the end you can claim, once again: "Well we didn't know anything and then startet a rebellion against that evil doer!!"

But maybe the story will be different this time, maybe the story will be: "The Horde will allways be the evil faction and for that few true Hordies left, you can play your noble Orcs within the Alliance Mag'Thars. Sounds actually like something Blizz is capable of.

[Mehrunes]

I wouldn't say that Sylvanas looks dumb just for being honest, mostly because her honesty brings a few decent arguments, the kind of arguments Garrosh wasn't capable or never cared about to bring on his table. And yes, I believe Saurfang really pissed her off for some reason, apparently becuase of the only one trait he shared with Garrosh, aka the obsession over "honor in battle".

I have no idea if the quotes are in order, but one of the other quotes has her screaming about honor in regards to the siege towers of bullshit. So I think he wants to engage Alliance in some honorable, yet idiotic way during the siege of Undercity.

I don't disagree with you two's points, but I think she could have been more polite about that going by her character in BfA preview. It'd be understandable if she was always an abrasive (or "bitchy") character like Garrosh or even Nanathos, but Sylvanas understood the need to at least act to gain people's support. She doesn't openly insult her ally unless she was insulted first. Even when Saurfang implicitly threatened her ("You are the leader of all the Horde-orcs, tauren, trolls, blood elves, goblins-as well as the Forsaken. You must never forget that, or else they might"), she was still able keep her thoughts inside her mind instead of just shooting her words back. So in my opinion, these texts are showing her being more aggressive (towards the Horde leaders) than I expected her to be, unless Saurfang did something to upset her. I'm not sure him suiciding trying to die an (unnecessary) honorable death would have affected her that much to the point of losing her calm - she probably wouldn't be happy if the Horde loses one of the very valuable general, but just that?

Eh, it's not that much different from her lashing out at Lor'themar in his short story. Sylvanas may take a lot of shit, but poke her enough and she'll snap and put you in your place. Especially if it's indeed during the siege of Undercity. There's gathering support and then there's being questioned by some guy that wants to throw Horde lives in the name of honor during a decisive battle. And I doubt Saurfang wanted to put up his hypothetical last stand on his own, rather take some elite troops with him to hold the Alliance while the Horde retreats. I mean, Saurfang doesn't seem that pissed at her when he's captured by Anduin. Instead he taunts him with the prospect of him getting killed by the Horde before they get to talk.

[Deleted]

Eh, given Alliance's unjustified attack in Stormheim, which led to fucking the Forsaken over, even though there was a Legion invasion going on, it's understandable she wants to deal with the warmongering Alliance once and for all.

Attack in Stormheim was justified in every single bit... lorewise, Azsuna happens first, in which we find out Sylvanas plans and then Anduin sends Genn, Tess and alliance player to Stormheim to secure Aegis and a secret mission to intercept Sylvanas plans (You know, enslaving Eyir and that would make her endless armies of valkyr... hell she even pacted with Helya that both Alliance and Horde had to deal with...)

[Syegfryed]

Hihi hope is strong in this one.

Nope you guys will be the bad guys. I am 100% certain with that. Blizz is totally on the way of black/whiteing the story because they want the clear line in the conflict.
They want to go back to the Warcraft story and guess what in Warcraft the Horde has been the bad guys. That is why there even is war. The Horde tried to conquer Azeroth and Sylvanas tries the same, she even calls it "conquering Kalimdor".

So nope, you will be the bad guys hands down, but if you're lucky you get at least another rebellion with Saurfang to whash your hand clean after all that Garrsoh, Garrosh ...uhm I mean Sylvanas! Sylvanas!" chanting and cheering. So at the end you can claim, once again: "Well we didn't know anything and then startet a rebellion against that evil doer!!"

But maybe the story will be different this time, maybe the story will be: "The Horde will allways be the evil faction and for that few true Hordies left, you can play your noble Orcs within the Alliance Mag'Thars. Sounds actually like something Blizz is capable of.

i know we will be the bad guys, but i said it will be both, the baddies and the "misunderstood"

and no, there is no way the maghar going to alliance, this just seems like tumblr fanfic

[Mehrunes]

I do agree that Sylvanas isn't one to shy from shooting back (be it words or arrows) if she is pissed off. However, did Saurfang presumably idea of going for a honorable death, maybe plus the fact that they are losing the battle for Lordaeron and maybe his questioning of her strategies, piss her off that much? She was calm enough to hide her thought even when he was implicitly threaten her earlier in the BtS preview.

One of her other quotes is bitching at honorable combat in regards to dealing with the siege towers. So if Saurfang wants to deal honorably even with siege towers (I mean, it's siege weapons, so it's rather stupid to begin with), which are a significant threat and a priority target, then he most likely talks about honor this, honor that the entire fight.

That would mean Sylvanas didn't only sacrifice her own people but also leavin Silvermoon open and undefended for the Alliance.
But surely she has just noble intentions, what do two cities full of her people matter, right?

Undercity is evacuated and Quel'thalas should be protected by Elf Gates by now. Besides, Alliance is so weak they can't even hold Tirisfal and have to scurry to a ruin at the other end of Lordaeron. They are hardly a threat to the Blood Elves.

[Deleted]

i know it wee will be the bad guys, but i said it will be both, the baddies and the "misunderstood"

and no, there is no way the maghar going to alliance, this just seems like tumblr fanfic

I'm not a fan of the direction either, but judging from what I know about Blizzard, I say that is the route they will be taking... being totally obvious and at the same time trying to pull off an completely unexpecthed stunt... so being obvious with Sylvanas motivations and doings and that unecpected stunt is Saurfang joining the Alliance.

As much as I would love for all of it not to happen, that is basically how we know Blizzard.
Blizzard never ever failed to disapoint me with the storywriting and making things completely rediculous.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde has as much honor as Klingons. It's just words. Seriously, when has the Horde ever shown true honor?

When they agreed to end the previous war the Alliance started for the price of just Azshara.

I love how you Alliance always pull that 'innocents' trigger. It's literally your last straw. War crimes and innocents. Why are you so fond of victimizing yourself? Because it gives credits to paint the opposite side as fantasy Nazis, all shades of black.

What she actually said was 1) future for Horde grandchildren 2) empire untouched by the Alliance. In her private dialogue with a Horde champion she honestly says nothing of Alliance destruction, she admits its existence and that it will remain in EK. I mean, she just gives it over to the blue side saying 'OK we'll stay here'. Words Makiavelli or Sun Tzu would be proud of.
Where from you got the stuff about innocents, I can only guess.

To paraphrase Sidious: alt-fact safe space of some Alliance players is a source of many viewpoints some may consider to be unnatural.

Because surpriseattacking and nuking a city of civilians (which are innocent) that is not even a military city (The Nightelven army is located in Feralas at Moonfeather keep) is a war crime and an exceptionally evil act.

Period.

Azeroth still has no established concept of war crimes, period. Also, the Horde planned to conquer it. And just like Forsaken evacuated from Undercity, Night Elves will most likely evacuate from Darnassus. It's not like trees burn in an instant.

You guys also claimed with hands and feet that sylvanas didn't start the war or burned the tree and guss what happens?
So I'd say you might be out of luck here, but Ok keep closing your eyes but don't be shocked when you open them again, ok?

The Alliance starts the war because Silithus still happens first and chronology, as inconvenient to the Alliance victimhood, continues to be a thing. And who said Sylvanas didn't burn down the tree? I saw only people saying it's not certain who burned it.

The _entire_ sentinel army is located in ferals with her general (shandris feathermoon) Darnassus has only some police forces and that is ingame and book lore.
So it is obvious by noe that you sadly have no clue about the story of the game, so it is pointless to argue with you. You lack knowledge.

Just lol. Unless you're willing to provide a source for the entire army being stationed there.

[Syegfryed]

I'm not a fan of the direction either, but judging from what I know about Blizzard, I say that is the route they will be taking... being totally obvious and at the same time trying to pull off an completely unexpecthed stunt... so being obvious with Sylvanas motivations and doings and that unecpected stunt is Saurfang joining the Alliance.

As much as I would love for all of it not to happen, that is basically how we know Blizzard.
Blizzard never ever failed to disapoint me with the storywriting and making things completely rediculous.

no no, thinks like this are set in stone, the artbox of the game is an Orc x a human, its a ancient fight since warcraft 1, there is no way this would change, alliance is human and orc is Horde, no matter how they shove elves in our throats

[Mehrunes]

Attack in Stormheim was justified in every single bit... lorewise, Azsuna happens first, in which we find out Sylvanas plans and then Anduin sends Genn, Tess and alliance player to Stormheim to secure Aegis and a secret mission to intercept Sylvanas plans (You know, enslaving Eyir and that would make her endless armies of valkyr... hell she even pacted with Helya that both Alliance and Horde had to deal with...)

Lorewise Azsuna doesn't happen first, because there's no source ever saying that to be the case. Blizzard's beta plans that never reached live aren't actual lore. Also, all the Azsuna book said was that Sylvanas wants to "steal the power o v...". That's not exactly a clear information, but for all of its lack of clarity, I see no mentions of Alliance in there. So "justified in every single bit" my ass. And not only did the Alliance not know of Helya or Eyir before getting there, Genn had no clue what Sylvanas' actual plan was throughout the entire questline.

Here is the thing: The Alliance actually wants peace. The Horde does not. So this whole committing genocide against the Night Elves to secure peace is laughable.

The Alliance has never been the aggressor. The entire conflict started with 3 unprovoked wars against the Alliance by the Orcs / Horde.

If the Horde laid down their weapons there would be no more war. If the Alliance laid down their weapons there would be no more Alliance.

This is abject bullshit. In this war alone the Alliance strikes first. And not as a preemptive strike, because they do that before they actually discover any plans of the Horde. They were the aggressor in the last war too. And in other smaller conflicts. So what's laughable here is your shitty attempt at inserting the (already horseshit) Palestine vs Israel mantra here.

The Horde right now:

Oh noes, the Horde wants to deal with the faction that keeps attacking them, even during a world-ending invasion of the Legion. Totall Nazis. What does it make the Alliance then, who ends up attacking the Horde first, before they even get wind of Horde's plans for war? Ultra Nazis?

Can they stop making Saurfang a suicidal mad man please. Plenty of ''old school'' orcs knew when a battle was lost, he did the exact same thing in the Warrior campaign intro.

This kind of mental instability seems to run in the Saurfang family, apparently.

LoL I can't tell if people are RPing in the forums or not sometimes. The Azerite was clearly a very powerful mineral that could be used as an even more powerful weapon. Obviously Alliance would want to stop Horde gathering it, in contested territories.

Given how the Alliance doesn't establish it being used for weapons (or that even being possible) before they attack, this is meaningless nonsense. Also, since when was powerful anything a valid justification for war? Finally, try to explain how the Alliance attempted to stop the Horde from gathering it (despite having no authority to do so) without the handwaving.

Sylannas wants to use it as a powerful weapon and wants total control over it to change the whole war in her favour. She makes her reasoning clear in the text - The attack on Teldrassil isn't part of a tit-for-tat because Alliance killed some miners - It's because she wants total control over the entire continent to build an empire upon, and sole access to the Azerite.

Which is irrelevant to the topic of Alliance attacking first. Given how they can't read Sylvanas' mind, they can't take her plans into consideration when they attack Silithus. Sylvanas could plan to impale every Alliance child on spikes made from the bones of their parents. If Alliance attacks first it still attacks first, because chronology exists.

Well, it would put an ounce of truth to her plan. She apparently wants to control the entire of Kalimdor so there are "no more borders" to fight over, but the Horde controls large territories in the Eastern Kingdoms which will thus HAVE to have borders anyway and so the Horde will always be split between the two continents. I'm guessing after Kalimdor, she'd want to apply her "no more borders" plan to the rest of Azeroth too.

Lordaeron is an island continent separate from the rest of EK. Blow up Thandol Span and there's no border there.

Horde territory? When has the Alliance tried to conquer Mulgore?

If the Horde had actually kept to themselves there would be no conflict.

Which is totally proven by Alliance following them to Kalimdor, a land they didn't even know before, to keep fighting them even after Orcs tried to leave the Alliance behind.

The orcs are invaders from a different planet. Who tried to wipe out humans three times in a row. They and their goblin allies are constantly encroaching on and plundering Night Elf lands.

And Dwarves are constantly encroaching on Horde territory to plunder some artifacts. In three times as many zones.

The Lich King created abominations have been plaguing human lands in the EK.

They are plaguing their own land.

But despite all this, all we wanted was peace. But the Horde's greed can never be sated. Whenever the Alliance offers its hand the Horde slaps it away and spits in the Alliance's eye.

Again, Daelin followed Orcs across an ocean to a land that he just learned about, just to attack the Orcs. Varian declared war in Undercity. Alliance invaded Barrens before Garrosh even looked in Ashenvale's general direction.

And whenever Alliance offers its hand? It was the Alliance who bailed out of Theramore summit before WotLK. It was the Alliance who broke a trade treaty made to facilitate peace after WotLK. It was the Alliance who got played like a fiddle by the Twilight Hammer and then demanded Thrall to hand out "the guilty" without trial or Thrall even establishing who the guilty actually were, then treated him wanting to actually find out who they were as an insult.

By throwing plague on the Alliance at the Wrathgate.

Given how it wasn't Horde that did it, sure ting.

The Horde attacked Gilneas unprovoked.

Which wasn't an Alliance member at the time, so totally matters to Alliance-Horde relations. Totally proves your fanfiction too.

Rofl, there was a truce, but Sylvanas punished her general for diplomacy.

How totally honest of you to ignore the part where Alliance broke that truce in a surprise attack, which cost Forsaken lives. Which is the reason Koltira got punished. That and him having no authority to make the truce to begin with.

Err, razing of Gilneas, abandoning the Alliance on the Broken Shore, trying to exploit the Val'kyr?

Gilneas happened in a war that was already over, Horde had to retreat and informed the Alliance about it and no one knew anything about Sylvanas wanting to do anything to the Val'kyr when the Alliance attacked.

Barrens is not Mulgore. And no Alliance attack was unprovoked.

Why would we trade with hostiles who want to kill us? We would leave you alone if you left us alone.

Still unsupported fanfiction.

The Horde being willing to sacrifice their own people as collateral when attacking the Alliance only proves their depravity.

Still not Horde who committed the attack, so more fanfiction.

Those that carried out the attack were members of the horde (albeit a splinter group..), they used horde resources, and all machinery and plague etc was built out in the Undercity. It was led by high-ranking Forsaken member and carried out in the name of the Forsaken. It's easy to argue that it was the Hordes fault that they were able to grow and prepare and build so many weapons without their knowledge.

Those that carried the attack were traitors that were in open rebellion before Wrathgate. It was led by former high-ranking Forsaken who turned towards the Legion. And oh noes, they got weapons from Undercity (that they got through the rebellion). That matters oh so much. Because the place of origins of a weapon is guilty of the actions of those that use it. Totally. And Alliance attacked Thrall at Teldrassil.

[Deleted]

For the people who don't know Sylvanas motivations and why she fears death so much:

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...nas-windrunner

[steelballfc]

Sylvanas isn't Garrosh, but it seems increasingly likely like we're going to get an absolute rehash of MoP. We lose the war, again. We commit treason, again. We get to hear about Horde favoritism after killing one of our characters just because our characters weren't deleted, again.

the sin of playing a Horde char.

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Heh, it very could be. But I wanna bet against for the fun of it.

wrongs bets are wrong

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Far too tired to even want to discuss all of this, the expansion is not gonna be out til like 5 months from now and it's already semi tiring.

However, this snippet of dialog did remind me a lot of Orgim Doomhammer from her part.

this new expansion is a mistake.

[Deleted]

Hihi hope is strong in this one.

Nope you guys will be the bad guys. I am 100% certain with that. Blizz is totally on the way of black/whiteing the story because they want the clear line in the conflict.
They want to go back to the Warcraft story and guess what in Warcraft the Horde has been the bad guys. That is why there even is war. The Horde tried to conquer Azeroth and Sylvanas tries the same, she even calls it "conquering Kalimdor".

So nope, you will be the bad guys hands down, but if you're lucky you get at least another rebellion with Saurfang to whash your hand clean after all that Garrsoh, Garrosh ...uhm I mean Sylvanas! Sylvanas!" chanting and cheering. So at the end you can claim, once again: "Well we didn't know anything and then startet a rebellion against that evil doer!!"

But maybe the story will be different this time, maybe the story will be: "The Horde will allways be the evil faction and for that few true Hordies left, you can play your noble Orcs within the Alliance Mag'Thars. Sounds actually like something Blizz is capable of.

"Hihi" Tells you everything. No arguments, just headcannon dreams and some stupid giggling "You will be the bad guys, nananananaaaa, because i crave it so much, nanananaa" based on literally nothing.

Sure, because the Horde doesn't need a lot of ressources, they rather burn them mindlessly so they can't use them. Because Sylvanas is such a mindless destroyer you doesn't need wood for her fleets. Just one example you could use the ressources for. I bet there was a lot of wood on that island, which could have been used for a lot of practical things.

And of course you ignore that Blizzard didn't even reveal what really happened yet. But i guess if the new book will be contradictive to your own little WoW World you live in, you will ignore all the facts from the book you don't like and twist the rest, so you can come up with more theories who aren't based on the lore, facts, logic and reality. I can't wait for it...