Sylvanas on the Buring of Teldrassil and Saurfang's Honor

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

All I really see in this is "I don't want to go back to the hell that is my afterlife and I'll do whatever it takes to prevent that", so same Sylvanas shtick as always. I can't help but feel the entire purpose of making Sylvanas warchief was less about Sylvanas's story and more for Saurfang's. The Horde can have a proper honorable, orc warchief once again without having to go back to Thrall.

Do we honestly need to play Warchief musical chairs? It's stupid as hell.

[Deleted]

Please let this happen. PLEASE! This is some realistic story-telling rather than just Saurfang taking the mantle of Warchief and playing musical chairs. Let Saurfang bring the Mag'har Orcs into the Alliance.

Realistic she said... man... It's like proposing that Ji Firepaw will make an espiritual journey to AU Draenor and get the Saberons to the Horde because they're both furries. Hey, why not? Totally realistic man!

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what mental gymnastic is this

Bad reasoning and bad argumentation skills I guess.

[seleri]

Do we honestly need to play Warchief musical chairs? It's stupid as hell.

Didn't say it's not stupid, just that it's what I see happening.

[Mehrunes]

i ave a theory saurfang joins the alliance.
anduin did say he had respect for the orc, that his father told him stories of him.
saurfang did see mercy from the alliance ,and well honor, unlike how he views sylvanas and what she has been doing.
he did also after being freed go speak to anduin instead of escaping with the others, and then seemingly dissapear.
he could join the alliance... and bring with him... brown orcs?
it is possible, and i think it would be cool to for the first time see a faction leader defect, he has seen his horde corrupt time and time again, maybe it is about time he leaves it?

He is not happy at all about what sylvanas is doing, the plague, the lack of honor.
is this possible?

Saurfang spat in face of Alliance mercy and demanded a honorable death instead. When he couldn't offer an alternative to the Blight he followed suit. And what brown Orcs? Mag'har were Garrosh loyalists to the bitter end. AU Orcs couldn't care less about the Alliance or even Saurfang.

I say change of heart only because he's always been staunchly against the Alliance and the humans. Change of heart because fundamentally, at one point he was a fel-blood infused blood crazed Orc. Change of heart because Anduin sat him down and told him what "Honor in death" actually fucking means.

Anduin told him there's no honor in dying like a moron. So, the same thing Sylvanas said in the quote this thread is about. So why would he follow Anduin, exactly?

But I agree, you're right. We are seeing a Horde redefinition. Something that will be defined when the brown orcs take their proper place shoulder to shoulder with the Alliance against the abomination Sylvannas' Horde has become.

The abomination that was appointed by the chief bruddamon Vol'jin. And accepted by everyone.

Also don't forget what happened at WOTLK:

In Icecrown Citadel after we killed Saurfangs son, Varian is the one who allows Varok to take his son with him to give him, what Varian said:"the burial of an hero" and Saurfang was in extremely deep thank for him. He respected Varian extremely and his sense of Honor, also he was there when Varian at the end of SOO reminded the Horde of the honor they shoudl hold up leaving the city afterwards.

And respecting one human means his entire identity turned? He's always been loyal to the Horde. Even when Garrosh turned into a madman Saurfang dealt it from within the Horde.

Right, especially when she states she's going to reanimate his corpse after he goes off to meet his son.

I doubt utterly and completely that Saurfang will ever step foot back into Orgrimmar again. Not with that bitch taking up the title of warchief that should be rightfully his.

Rightfully his? Last time I checked no one nominated him to oppose Vol'jin. And Saurfang accepted her rule just fine.

He has every reason and motive to defect to the Alliance, as there is no more "Horde" to uphold.

Did Sylvanas dismantle it now? Jaina would be proud.

The best part would be if it's the Alliance that finds out from Vol'jin that he was tricked into appointing bitch queen, thus sparking Saurfang's desire to unseat her.

Tricked by whom, exactly?

I'd argue Sylvannas already betrayed the Horde by seeing them as fuel for her survival. She sees them as subjects to serve and corpses in waiting. Everything about her mantra revolving around 'survival' points toward centralizing her needs above the Horde. Kind of like another Orcish dictator that Saurfang also hates.

Except she says in multiple of the new quotes that she wants to see the whole of the Horde survive.

So this time teh Rebellion could be a bit more sever with Saurfang fighting to free his Horde from Sylvanas within the Alliance as there is not much left of the old Horde he could use for a second rebellion.
Sylvanas wasn't stupid, she surrounded herself with elves, with Trolls that see themselves superior. There is not much space left for the old Horde to start yet another rebellion, simply because the current horde races don't care for what Sylvanas does. They are totally OK with that.

So is Saurfang, from what we've seen so far.

I can totally see how Varok brings the Mag Thar into the Alliance to free his Horde, because the Alliance is no longer racist or against orcs. Anduin is different.

Mag'har, the one of few Orc groups that was Garrosh loyalists till the end. Perfect Alliance candidate.

And guess who's gone? And guess who Sylvannas surrounds herself with? Yes men. Lorthremar? Back pocket. Gallywix? Hers if the golds right. Every other racial leader save for maybe Baine (which could be played off as young and naive) has no reason to question or otherwise object to Sylvannas in any capacity. Saurfang has no allies within his Horde.

Gallywix turned against Garrosh because of who Garrosh was and what he was doing, not because of money. And Lor'themar a yes man to Sylvanas? Not since 3.0.

It's a great meme though, especially when 8.1 rolls around and you see "DRAENOR ORCS, ALLIANCE ALLIED RACE" plastered on the Blizzard launcher. Just gotta get exalted with the Avengers of Orgrimmar!

Look at all dem links between Draenor Orcs and the Alliance.

Yeah sure, Mag'har orcs won't listen to Varok fucking Saurang. Right.

Given how he's not even from the same world, he's a nobody to them. He didn't even do much outside of the Garrison, so how would they even know him.

Next you're going to tell me Demon Hunters won't follow Illidan. Or that Paladin's don't follow the Light.

Holy mother of false equivalency.

Because it takes an Orc to lead the orcs into the alliance, one that has lost his home and his moral standards, one who doesn't have anything left fighting for, but for his Horde, not Sylvanas. So he is the one who brings the last honorable orcs back into buisness.

Sounds logical to me.

And AU Orcs would follow him why, exactly? Let alone join the Alliance just because of him.

Saurfang questioning her judgement (especially when he was the one wary of the Forsaken joining the Horde to begin with) is not only perfectly in line with his character, but a perfectly good reason for him to defy Sylvannas. This would only be further spurned if we do eventually find out if Vol'jin was manipulated to put Sylvannas into power, thus giving Varok a moral reason for his abandonment of her "Horde".

Since when was Saurfang wary of Forsaken joining the Horde?

Please do go on about all of Varok's dead friends still in the Horde. Please do go on about all the connections saurfang still has to his people being subjugated under Sylvannas as walking corpses.

Because Saurfang had no friends other than Vol'jin and Cairne. And you talk about denial lel. And what walking corpses? The only walking corpses in the Horde are the Forsaken and they follow her willingly.

saurfang has even gone on record saying the Horde is only as honorable as its Warchief. He plainly sees a leader focused on survival through conquest as repeating the same mistakes as the Horde of old.

Yet he continues following Sylvanas even after Teldrassil.

[Deleted]

Ahhh denial, the sweetest and sublime of emotions. Keep it up hun, I love how much you squirm every time you think of the heavy possibility of it happening.

So i was dumb enough to get on the troll train of yours. I am deeply wounded xD

[Deleted]

Saurfang leading the Mag'har to the Alliance makes the Void Elves the most logical lore decision ever.

FFS, the Mag'har were pro-Garrosh, they truly believe on the concept of the "heroic" Old Horde. This nonsense talk about Saurfang, THE PLAYER CHARACTER OF THE HORDE DURING WARCRAFT 2, ditchting his home, friends and family to lead the Mag'har to the Alliance is simply not having an ounce of narrative building.

[Magnagarde]

Funny how Hordeplayers went from: Lok Thar Ogar and proudly holding up their moral sense of honor, to:
Screw honor, screw Saurfang, let Sylvanas use him as an undead boot cleaning slave for gods sake, who is he anyway?

Speaks a lot about the playerbase the horde is now composed of. 2 addons before Saurfang was your true and only hero.

The Horde playerbase has become a playerbase that mostly revolves around elves, undead, undead elves and as of recent even more elves. It comes as no surprise that the original meaning of the Horde got lost after well over a decade of such players congregating within it. The balance has been tipped and that is why you have this.



After void elves, nothing would surprise me. Cyborg ogres with gnome intellect in the Alliane and a Mok'nathal/high elf crossbreed would be fitting.

[ls-]

Saurfang leading the Mag'har to the Alliance makes the Void Elves the most logical lore decision ever.

FFS, the Mag'har were pro-Garrosh, they truly believe on the concept of the "heroic" Old Horde. This nonsense talk about Saurfang, THE PLAYER CHARACTER OF THE HORDE DURING WARCRAFT 2, ditchting his home, friends and family to lead the Mag'har to the Alliance is simply not having an ounce of narrative building.

Well, as one wise orc once said

[Deleted]

Well, as one wise orc once said

Funny, Garrosh changed nothing at the end of the day. The Iron Horde became the same old and then was absorbed by Gul'dan Horde.

[ls-]

Funny, Garrosh changed nothing at the end of the day. The Iron Horde became the same old and then was absorbed by Gul'dan Horde.

Anyway, given that Saurfang walks away w/ Ally soldiers to talk to Anduin w/o player or any other Horde NPC it's safe to assume that he'll work w/ the Alliance, he may not join them, but he'll prob strike a deal w/ Anduin and others.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Anyway, given that Saurfang walks away w/ Ally soldiers to talk to Anduin w/o player or any other Horde NPC it's safe to assume that he'll work w/ the Alliance, he may not join them, but he'll prob strike a deal w/ Anduin and others.

He pulls a Garona and stabs Anduin, hilarity ensues

[ls-]

He pulls a Garona and stabs Anduin, hilarity ensues

I wish, mate, I wish...

[Flarelaine]

Funny how Hordeplayers went from: Lok Thar Ogar and proudly holding up their moral sense of honor, to:
Screw honor, screw Saurfang, let Sylvanas use him as an undead boot cleaning slave for gods sake, who is he anyway?

Speaks a lot about the playerbase the horde is now composed of. 2 addons before Saurfang was your true and only hero.

He is mine still.

Fuck, if they made him warchief, I might even transfer back.

[Deleted]

Anyway, given that Saurfang walks away w/ Ally soldiers to talk to Anduin w/o player or any other Horde NPC it's safe to assume that he'll work w/ the Alliance, he may not join them, but he'll prob strike a deal w/ Anduin and others.

Most likely Saurfang knows that something more is happening. After all, he was the Supreme Commander of the Might of Kalimdor, he led the Horde and the Alliance against C'thun.

[Aeula]

It’s obvious she’s blatantly lying about at least half of that.

But the part about honor is certainly right, it seems more and more like Saurfang might betray the Horde.

Which either means Draenor Orcs on the Alliance and the last major MU Orc character cast into oblivion (Making the Alliance the defacto Orc faction, which is ridiculous and a giant slap to the face) or Sylvanas will be killed in another rebellion orchestrated by Saurfang (Another slap to the face, regardless of what you think of Sylvanas).

Or Saurfang assassinates Anduin after gaining his trust and we all celebrate.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yea I said this a few weeks ago in my own thread. Honor gets your soldier killed but to use what may be labeled the most barbaric weapon or act to end all wars in the future so everyone may have peace is worth having. -Points at bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki- [Reference to real life events.]

Exactly troops putting it all on the line and dying, not just them but those caught in between, shouldn't be just novelties. This is why I would question a boy king. Where as Sylvanna's knows loss.

I have always been Alliance, but I won't bad mouth he for stepping up to take the win.

[steelballfc]

For once, I agree with Sylvanas. She has a twisted view of "Live today to fight tomorrow", but it's still better than suicidal honor.

Look where Nazgrim's honor drove him into. Saurfang is one of the most veteran soldiers of the Horde and saw countless examples of how honor can be a trick to something worse.

Honestly? Blizzard is purposely doing this to redefine the Horde. Right now, there is a clash of ideologies happening between the Orcish honor that was one of the pillar that created the Horde and the survival instincts of many races that joined the Horde.

it will end with backlash on the "old-horde" and the rise of more forsaken/blood elf's leaders top of Horde leadership

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For the Horde still, but her words to Saurfang do irk me just a bit.

for the Horde always, until death.

[Aucald]

It’s obvious she’s blatantly lying about at least half of that.

But the part about honor is certainly right, it seems more and more like Saurfang might betray the Horde.

Which either means Draenor Orcs on the Alliance and the last major MU Orc character cast into oblivion (Making the Alliance the defacto Orc faction, which is ridiculous and a giant slap to the face) or Sylvanas will be killed in another rebellion orchestrated by Saurfang (Another slap to the face, regardless of what you think of Sylvanas).

Or Saurfang assassinates Anduin after gaining his trust and we all celebrate.

My working theory is that Sylvanas is going to get herself killed, or possibly cross a threshold that costs her the trust of the Horde, and Varok Saurfang will be the one waiting in the wings to step into the position of Warchief on that occasion and end the conflict between the Horde and Alliance this time. If this isn't a capstone on the expansion, then Saurfang may also be the bridge to bring the Mag'har into the Horde, both to replenish their numbers and to hopefully (in his view) provoke a shift in ideology away from Sylvanas' "ends justify the means" philosophy to one more in keeping with his traditional Orcish view of honorable conduct.

[Doctor Amadeus]

If Orcs get to get to Alliance I want Human variations to go to Horde.

[steelballfc]

this meme of ma'ghar going to alliance need to stop, immediately

indeed
/10char

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If by realistic you mean complexity out of left field and only making sense in the depths of headcanon

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I can’t belive you think there is even a snowball’s chance

they still believe they will get high-elfs

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He pulls a Garona and stabs Anduin, hilarity ensues

my friend, he tells him about Med'an
*giggle*