Tinker Class Concept 2018 (long)

[Teriz]

We're talking about a video game that tells a story. That's a huge difference.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Argument from ignorance. The game is not a 1:1 representation of the lore.

What you described isn't in the story or the lore either.

No, he did not. He created a mech that looks like a Legion reaver. At no point it's stated that it was originally designed to run on fel. For someone wanting "datamines" and "official documents", you going on assumptions like that is quite hypocritical of you.

No where does it say that. It says that he was inspired by Legion-based tech, so he designed a Legion-based mech. Nowhere does it say his original design was modified or changed.

And anyway the point is this; The Horde isn't going to be building a fleet of Fel Reavers with a bunch of Orc flying in them.

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This was a fantastic post, OP. This would make me far more excited for an expansion than any races ever could.

You put in a lot of work and it shows.

Thanks for the kind words! I'm glad you enjoyed the OP. I'll be redoing the talents to reflect the addition of a 4th spec.

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Only if it's gnome and goblin class only

Agreed! 10/char

[BedlamBros]

Man, you guys are crazy with these arguments. It's almost the same crap you three were arguing about in the other thread. I hope you know that most people just scroll through that crap looking for some real conversation!
@Teriz: I really like that new spec you just added. Pretty original concept and something I'd definitely mess around with. Wasnt really feeling the mech stuff, but I dig that one. Good job!

[Ielenia]

What you described isn't in the story or the lore either.

You're making an assertion that is impossible to be proven correct or incorrect. That's called an "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

No where does it say that. It says that he was inspired by Legion-based tech, so he designed a Legion-based mech. Nowhere does it say his original design was modified or changed.

To say he was inspired is not the same thing to say that he made a near-perfect copy. Again, at no point any of Blackfuse's inventions used fel, either as a power source or whatever. Why would that one be different? All it says is that he drew inspiration, not that he copied everything. And again, if the original schematics really used fel as a power source (which, again, would be something he hasn't been shown to do before), it would be described in the description why he used fel and not any other power source readily available.

And anyway the point is this; The Horde isn't going to be building a fleet of Fel Reavers with a bunch of Orc flying in them.

Why not? I mean, you could say the same that the Horde wouldn't build flying ships in the past, but they did. Garrosh was quite technology-driven, what stops the current Horde from following the same path? (Minus the 'world conquest' part)

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Man, you guys are crazy with these arguments. It's almost the same crap you three were arguing about in the other thread. I hope you know that most people just scroll through that crap looking for some real conversation!

You mean, looking for an echo chamber?

[BedlamBros]

You're making an assertion that is impossible to be proven correct or incorrect. That's called an "argument from ignorance" fallacy.


To say he was inspired is not the same thing to say that he made a near-perfect copy. Again, at no point any of Blackfuse's inventions used fel, either as a power source or whatever. Why would that one be different? All it says is that he drew inspiration, not that he copied everything. And again, if the original schematics really used fel as a power source (which, again, would be something he hasn't been shown to do before), it would be described in the description why he used fel and not any other power source readily available.


Why not? I mean, you could say the same that the Horde wouldn't build flying ships in the past, but they did. Garrosh was quite technology-driven, what stops the current Horde from following the same path? (Minus the 'world conquest' part)

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You mean, looking for an echo chamber?

Easy sparky! I included Teriz in that trio as well.

[Darktbs]

Man, you guys are crazy with these arguments. It's almost the same crap you three were arguing about in the other thread. I hope you know that most people just scroll through that crap looking for some real conversation!
@Teriz: I really like that new spec you just added. Pretty original concept and something I'd definitely mess around with. Wasnt really feeling the mech stuff, but I dig that one. Good job!

It will continue until Blizzard announce one of them.

I might not have been here at the time, but all sights indicate that it was the same thing with Tinker vs Dh.

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The star is still falling. Why not call it starfall?

Because you're calling a single one.

Just like you had Lesser heal and greater heal.

Coincidence.

So is coincidence for them but not for Meta.

Them being less serious races actually helps with the technology theme. If you start giving more serious races tech, you start to significantly alter the flavor of the game.

It doesn't help.What happens is that Goblins and Gnomes are know for creating things that explode on their face because they are used for comedy.

In your opinion.

And of the player base, Goblins and Gnomes are the two less played races.

If they expand the lore? Certainly.

However I doubt that's going to happen.

Considering we have more examples of such things happening.

What you believe is meaningless.

You mean other than the fact that you can have multiple professions at once and you can drop them anytime you want? You mean other than the fact that professions are inconsequential to the story you're participating in?

Classes are also inconsequential, Argus will not fall in another way just because you roled a Dh.Multiple Classes can do the same thing and you can just roll another character.

The only difference is that professions applied in the classes, but everything you mentioned can be applied to a class.

There was a Dwarf Death Knight from Naxx (before WoLK).

Go job proving me right

Dks were human only in Wc3 but in Vanilla they got more races and in Wrath-Cata they were available to everybody.There were only Pandaren MOnks in lore but you have everyone learning kung fu.

Not ignoring everything else, just keeping everything relevant and grounded.

Your "Relevant and grounded" will shurely kill your class.

[ossyc]

Good job, but the fact you've done this means it will never see the light of day.

Don't forget Blizzard themselves like to come up with the clever ideas, not some random.

[Teriz]

You're making an assertion that is impossible to be proven correct or incorrect. That's called an "argument from ignorance" fallacy.

Multitudes of non-Goblin/Gnome Mages, Paladins, Warriors, Shaman, DKs, etc. flying around in mech suits is not in lore and its not in the game. That's pretty easy to prove.

To say he was inspired is not the same thing to say that he made a near-perfect copy. Again, at no point any of Blackfuse's inventions used fel, either as a power source or whatever. Why would that one be different? All it says is that he drew inspiration, not that he copied everything. And again, if the original schematics really used fel as a power source (which, again, would be something he hasn't been shown to do before), it would be described in the description why he used fel and not any other power source readily available.

Actually the Iron Reaver was the first Blackfuse invention that used Fel. It said pretty plainly that he designed the mech to be similar to a Legion construct. What do you think Legion constructs run on?

Why not? I mean, you could say the same that the Horde wouldn't build flying ships in the past, but they did. Garrosh was quite technology-driven, what stops the current Horde from following the same path? (Minus the 'world conquest' part)

Because it wouldn't make sense given the general story of the game. However, per usual, when that happens let me know.

[Ielenia]

Multitudes of non-Goblin/Gnome Mages, Paladins, Warriors, Shaman, DKs, etc. flying around in mech suits is not in lore and its not in the game. That's pretty easy to prove.

Just because it's not explicitly mentioned does not mean they do not exist, or, worse, incapable of such feats. If you want to prove they do not exist, you need to find some text in the lore or a Blizzard developer quote saying that, for example, humans are incapable of building and/or piloting mechs. There is no such thing, anywhere, though.

Actually the Iron Reaver was the first Blackfuse invention that used Fel. It said pretty plainly that he designed the mech to be similar to a Legion construct. What do you think Legion constructs run on?

You are factually wrong in this case. It just said he drew inspiration from the reaver. It could easily be argued that the inspiration he drew was the menacing looks of the Legion reavers that he drew inspiration from. Also, if it was the first invention that used fel, I think that's a pretty significant detail to omit.

Because it wouldn't make sense given the general story of the game.

Because it totally made sense to bring 'alien goats from outer space' into the game, right?

However, per usual, when that happens let me know.

It already did. Garrosh' time as warchief of the Horde created an increase in technology being used for the military.

[Teriz]

Just because it's not explicitly mentioned does not mean they do not exist, or, worse, incapable of such feats. If you want to prove they do not exist, you need to find some text in the lore or a Blizzard developer quote saying that, for example, humans are incapable of building and/or piloting mechs. There is no such thing, anywhere, though.

Why would Blizzard state something doesn't exist in the game that does not exist in the game in the first place?

You are factually wrong in this case. It just said he drew inspiration from the reaver. It could easily be argued that the inspiration he drew was the menacing looks of the Legion reavers that he drew inspiration from. Also, if it was the first invention that used fel, I think that's a pretty significant detail to omit.

Obviously you can't read the dungeon journal so there's no need to continue this point.

Because it totally made sense to bring 'alien goats from outer space' into the game, right?

When it was already established that Orcs are also aliens from another world, sure.

It already did. Garrosh' time as warchief of the Horde created an increase in technology being used for the military.

There's a difference between an industrialized Horde building crude railroads and tanks, and a Horde full of Orcs flying into Orgrimmar in Gundam suits.

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Good job, but the fact you've done this means it will never see the light of day.

Don't forget Blizzard themselves like to come up with the clever ideas, not some random.

Of course. Just a little something I did for fun, and a place to showcase my idea of how I think the Tinker class might look like.

[Lochton]

Siegecrafter screams more as DPS vs. Mechanic. Just.. saying *hides*

[Ielenia]

Why would Blizzard state something doesn't exist in the game that does not exist in the game in the first place?

Because the game is not a 1:1 representation of the lore.

Obviously you can't read the dungeon journal so there's no need to continue this point.

You mean I don't read it with the lens of your agenda? At no point it says the original schematics used fel energy.

And I'll repeat this: for someone who keeps demanding to see "official documentation" of WC3 starfall to WoW starshards, you sure are willing to accept loose interpretations when it suits your narrative, aren't you?

There's a difference between an industrialized Horde building crude railroads and tanks, and a Horde full of Orcs flying into Orgrimmar in Gundam suits.

Again. It's always a dichotomy to you, right? Either you abhor technology, or you embrace technology above everything else?

[Teriz]

Because you're calling a single one.

Just like you had Lesser heal and greater heal.

Again, different scenario with no evidence that Starshards is the lesser version of Starfall, or that Starfall is Starshards replacement. After all, Starfall went to a completely different class, and was a direct translation of the Druid ability.

So is coincidence for them but not for Meta.

Yep. We've discussed this many times. Starshards was removed because ALL of the racial Priest abilities were removed. Metamorphosis Warlock was removed because Demon Hunters needed Metamorphosis to function as a concept.

It doesn't help.What happens is that Goblins and Gnomes are know for creating things that explode on their face because they are used for comedy.

But its also used to show that their tech, while amazing, isn't refined. That brings their creations down to earth a bit. If you start having Lightforged Warframes everywhere (which is highly refined tech), you change the complexion of the game completely.

And of the player base, Goblins and Gnomes are the two less played races.

Because their industrial racial style and culture clashes with the medieval style of the existing classes.

Considering we have more examples of such things happening.

What you believe is meaningless.

Where are such things happening?

Classes are also inconsequential, Argus will not fall in another way just because you roled a Dh.Multiple Classes can do the same thing and you can just roll another character.

Except they're not consequential. If you drop your class you have to create an entirely new character because you erased your current character from existence.

Go job proving me right

So what's your point?

Your "Relevant and grounded" will shurely kill your class.

Highly doubtful.

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Siegecrafter screams more as DPS vs. Mechanic. Just.. saying *hides*

Elaborate. I'm always looking for feedback.

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Because the game is not a 1:1 representation of the lore.

There is no lore supporting what you're saying here (scores of Medieval Knights, Paladins and Wizards flying around in mecha suits on the Alliance and Horde). That's the problem. If you have some evidence to the contrary please provide it.

Again. It's always a dichotomy to you, right? Either you abhor technology, or you embrace technology above everything else?

That's not what I said at all. *I* said that there's a big difference between a primitive society industrializing with rails, artillery, guns, zepplins, etc. and a primitive society suddenly having an army of Gundam suits.

[Ielenia]

There is no lore supporting what you're saying here (scores of Medieval Knights, Paladins and Wizards flying around in mecha suits on the Alliance and Horde). That's the problem. If you have some evidence to the contrary please provide it.

No, that's your problem, because you are the only one claiming that. At no point I ever said there are "scores of medieval people flying in mecha suits." Never.

That's not what I said at all. *I* said that there's a big difference between a primitive society industrializing with rails, artillery, guns, zepplins, etc. and a primitive society suddenly having an army of Gundam suits.

Again, not at all, or all the way. Always a dichotomy to you. Those can't "meet in the middle", it's always one extreme or the other, with you. It's all such a big dishonesty with you...

[Teriz]

No, that's your problem, because you are the only one claiming that. At no point I ever said there are "scores of medieval people flying in mecha suits." Never.

So you're not saying that the Sky Golem, Lumber Extractor, Fel Annihilator, or Lightforged Golem mounts are lore? Weren't you just arguing that it's possible for the Orcs to mass produce Iron Reaver mechs?

Again, not at all, or all the way. Always a dichotomy to you. Those can't "meet in the middle", it's always one extreme or the other, with you. It's all such a big dishonesty with you...

LoL@ You argued in post #563 that the Orcs flying around in Gundam-like mechs was just like the Draenor Orcs industrializing under Garrosh, now you're back-tracking.

How typical of you...

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@Teriz: I really like that new spec you just added. Pretty original concept and something I'd definitely mess around with. Wasnt really feeling the mech stuff, but I dig that one. Good job!

Yeah, I created that spec in order to give those who dislike the idea of piloting a mech something to check out. It also just shows how robust the Tinker concept really is.

Thanks for the commenting.

[arkanon]

I like how this is mostly cut and pasted from a post on this very forum, by a different user. you bassically just took all the ground work they had laid, and added some pictures and icons. At least give credit where credit is due. Jesus.

[Teriz]

I like how this is mostly cut and pasted from a post on this very forum, by a different user. you bassically just took all the ground work they had laid, and added some pictures and icons. At least give credit where credit is due. Jesus.

Uh what the heck are you talking about? This concept is 100% my idea.

[Darktbs]

Again, different scenario with no evidence that Starshards is the lesser version of Starfall, or that Starfall is Starshards replacement. After all, Starfall went to a completely different class, and was a direct translation of the Druid ability.

Lets ignore the similar name, effect, spell animation and list to your headcanon.

Yep. We've discussed this many times. Starshards was removed because ALL of the racial Priest abilities were removed. Metamorphosis Warlock was removed because Demon Hunters needed Metamorphosis to function as a concept.

And if you did your homework you would know that they weren't removed but baked into the spec and at the same time the spells that did not fit the overhaul theme of Priests were either removed or in Starshard, made into Starfall for the Druid since they were the ones that used lots of moon/sun/star related spells.

But its also used to show that their tech, while amazing, isn't refined. That brings their creations down to earth a bit. If you start having Lightforged Warframes everywhere (which is highly refined tech), you change the complexion of the game completely.

Its already too late to worry about that.

Because their industrial racial style and culture clashes with the medieval style of the existing classes.

its because they are a joke race and are threated as such.
Where are such things happening?
Human/Worgen Druids, Blood elfs on the Alliance, Night elfs on the Horde, Tauren Paladins, Troll druids....

Except they're not consequential. If you drop your class you have to create an entirely new character because you erased your current character from existence.

If you drop your profession you need to start all over again.
Whats your point.

So what's your point?

I pointed out that it doesn't matter what we have at the moment because many times, race specific classes were expanded to others.

You just proved me right.

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Also, on the 4th spec.

What was the idea?

You had losts of things, nothing really working with one another and the general feeling is "Another Hunter"

Because you have shot spells and the image of a Engineer with a Mech pet.

And why do you keep the turrets mechanic in all specs?

Make a single spec based on turrets and explore the concept or actually use them effectly in all of them.

It feels like a MM Hunter were your pet doesn't do anything for you and you actually have a talent to ditch him off.While this time you can't trade the turrets for more damage.

[Ielenia]

So you're not saying that the Sky Golem, Lumber Extractor, Fel Annihilator, or Lightforged Golem mounts are lore?

Always a dichotomy to you, isn't it, Teriz? Either no one has it, or everyone has it...

Weren't you just arguing that it's possible for the Orcs to mass produce Iron Reaver mechs?

Possible? Yes.

... You do know what the word "possible" mean, right?

LoL@ You argued in post #563 that the Orcs flying around in Gundam-like mechs was just like the Draenor Orcs industrializing under Garrosh, now you're back-tracking.

How typical of you...

I am not back-tracking. I am simply not falling into your bullshit strawman, because I never claimed there are "scores of medieval peeps flying mechs all over the capital cities".

But if you think I'm wrong, please, by all means, point out the exact paragraph where I did what you're claiming I did.

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Yep. We've discussed this many times. Starshards was removed because ALL of the racial Priest abilities were removed. Metamorphosis Warlock was removed because Demon Hunters needed Metamorphosis to function as a concept.

Desperate Prayer still exist. And Fear Ward, Hymn of Hope and Devouring Plague also existed until a couple expansions ago.

[Teriz]

Lets ignore the similar name, effect, spell animation and list to your headcanon.

Except it's not the same name, effect, spell or animation. Saying that Starshards isn't the same as Starfall isn't headcanon it's fact.

Its already too late to worry about that.

No it's not. The Lightforged Warframe will be forgotten once this expansion is over, and the mount will just go into the inventory in the people who purchased it. Nothing more will come from it lorewise or otherwise.

Meanwhile, we'll keep seeing more Goblins and Gnomes in Mechs, as always.

its because they are a joke race and are threated as such.
Where are such things happening?
Human/Worgen Druids, Blood elfs on the Alliance, Night elfs on the Horde, Tauren Paladins, Troll druids....

Nah, it's because you have a Goblin Mage jumping into a convertible car and then riding on a highway in the starter zone.

If you drop your profession you need to start all over again.
Whats your point.[

Just the profession (if you even want to pick up another one). If you stop your class you have to start [b]the entire game[/quote] over.

I pointed out that it doesn't matter what we have at the moment because many times, race specific classes were expanded to others.

Which is fine. Again, let me know when that happens.

Until then....

Also, on the 4th spec.

What was the idea?

I'll respond to this a bit later.

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Always a dichotomy to you, isn't it, Teriz? Either no one has it, or everyone has it...

Based on your argument almost everyone would have it.

Possible? Yes.[

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

I am not back-tracking. I am simply not falling into your bullshit strawman, because I never claimed there are "scores of medieval peeps flying mechs all over the capital cities".

But if you think I'm wrong, please, by all means, point out the exact paragraph where I did what you're claiming I did.

No, I'm not digging through old posts looking for your BS. You DID make that dumb argument. At least you're smart enough to back off of it. Lorewise, only goblins and Gnomes consistently use mecha in combat on Azeroth.

Desperate Prayer still exist. And Fear Ward, Hymn of Hope and Devouring Plague also existed until a couple expansions ago.

Irrelevant.

[Ielenia]

Based on my strawman of your argument almost everyone would have it.

Fixed that for you.

Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

Considering you also thought "unlikely" that demon hunters ever saw the light of day, I find the idea of you finding this idea unlikely as well a good thing.

No, I'm not digging through old posts looking for your BS.

Then shut up.

You DID make that dumb argument.

Then prove it.

At least you're smart enough to back off of it.

I'm not backing off. I'm standing right here and claiming you're making another bullshit accusation. Prove it or back off.

Lorewise, only goblins and Gnomes consistently use mecha in combat on Azeroth.

Doesn't stop any other races from also piloting mechs.

Irrelevant.

I absolutely love this:
Teriz: "All priest racial abilities were removed!"
Me: "Desperate prayer still exist."
Teriz: "Irrelevant!"