Donald Trump: The (other) Great Delusion...

[schwarzkopf]

For the rational folk around here, February brings us into the second year of an unbelievably insane Trump Presidency.

We the rational are consistently amazed at the idiotic machination unique to this presidency.
We are amazed at the delusion that infects his followers like a drug induced dementia.

We are certain that Trump is going down, and that come November 2018 or November 2020 - things will be better.

That folks is where WE ARE DELUDED, Trump & co are winning. Their approach is winning - slowly at first, but it is changing the country at its roots.

And more people are falling for it.

The two months to 14th February, Trump has gained 5% on his support.
As of the 14th of February - he is more popular than at any time since May 2017.



Their crime - falling for a crook.
Our crime - complacency.

What kind of Dystopia lies ahead if that complacency continues ? Who knows.

[schwarzkopf]

By the way, what solution do you think there is to this problem?

I don't see any legal remedy to the problem, as all the legal remedies (congress, 25th amendment etc) are being denied.

At this time - the right are busy bowing to their Trump saviour, and the left are busy watching cat videos and porn.

The only action available to me is commentary, and that isn't going to change anyone.

[Lenonis]

Propaganda is a hell of a drug.

Of course the GOP is still loosing elections every time you turn around so the increase in approval hasn't translated to votes...yet.

A lot of people have zero analytical capability and just go along with the latest article they read or ad they heard. With the right wing propaganda machine screaming at full force, amplified by russian bot accounts on social media, it's no wonder the least among us are tricked into believing all is well.

[Elegiac]

Propaganda is a hell of a drug.

Of course the GOP is still loosing elections every time you turn around so the increase in approval hasn't translated to votes...yet.

A lot of people have zero analytical capability and just go along with the latest article they read or ad they heard. With the right wing propaganda machine screaming at full force, amplified by russian bot accounts on social media, it's no wonder the least among us are tricked into believing all is well.

This is why I'm of the opinion that in order for there to be some sort of political reform in this country, there needs to be a market crash. Like one so severe that it puts to rest any illusions that neoliberalism or supply side economics actually benefits anyone but the wealthy.

In short, people aren't going to stop buying into the bullshit until they start suffering in reality. It's harsh, but it may be what it takes.

[Endus]

Honestly, this isn't a fixable problem. When the problem is this widespread, at a deep ideological level, the only thing you can do is improve education to the next generation(s), and hope that future generations will be better. When people have decided they prefer comfortable lies to uncomfortable truths, even if that truth is "something you've believed is a lie", there is no truth you can present them with that will convince them. They've decided to not be convincable; that truth does not matter.

The only other possible solution in the shorter term is rubbing their noses in their failings. In most cases, with something like racism, that comes about when their kid marries someone whose part of that hated group, and there's at least a chance that they'll reconsider those views in light of losing their connection to their family member. Or with homophobes, when a child comes out to them. And even there, there's still a really solid chance the response will be anger and exile, not tolerance and acceptance.

In the case of something like this, we'd need to see economic collapse akin to the Great Depression, combined with criminal charges being filed against a great many Republicans for their involvement in unethical behaviour (dozens of targets, if not hundreds). Anything less won't be sufficient to have a chance to kick them out of this ideological nose dive. And even if it DOES happen, I'll point back to the "anger and exile" options above; they may see all that as an attack on their principles, and revolt accordingly, so it's a bloody risky thing to hope for.

So I don't think it's gonna be fixed. It took generations to dig yourselves into this hole. It'll take generations (or genocide) to dig yourselves out.

[lordsphinx]

This is why I'm of the opinion that in order for there to be some sort of political reform in this country, there needs to be a market crash. Like one so severe that it puts to rest any illusions that neoliberalism or supply side economics actually benefits anyone but the wealthy.

In short, people aren't going to stop buying into the bullshit until they start suffering in reality. It's harsh, but it may be what it takes.

Fascinating. You would put millions of people out of work, undercut the current trend of rising wages, destroy the retirement accounts of millions of Americans, and set world economies back 50 years, all for political talking points. Sure, the unshaven masses sucking on government tit would be relatively unaffected. That is, until state and local bond ratings start to fall and investors stop supporting deficit ridden state governments who bond their way out of debt (exactly what's happening in CT right now). How very compassionate of you...

[Deleted]

Fascinating. You would

They never said that they would.
Though I was about to ask.

[Elegiac]

Fascinating. You would put millions of people out of work, undercut the current trend of rising wages, destroy the retirement accounts of millions of Americans, and set world economies back 50 years, all for political talking points. Sure, the unshaven masses sucking on government tit would be relatively unaffected. That is, until state and local bond ratings start to fall and investors stop supporting deficit ridden state governments who bond their way out of debt (exactly what's happening in CT right now). How very compassionate of you...

*I* would put them out of work? What I would have is for people to come to their senses and stop buying into an anti-intellectual and alternative fact based perspective so we can return to more rational and moderate government. This isn't a discussion of political ideology, it's one of discussing the basic paradigm underpinning liberal democracy.

And in order for such a return or reform to occur, folly has to become unaffordable.

[Endus]

Fascinating. You would put millions of people out of work, undercut the current trend of rising wages, destroy the retirement accounts of millions of Americans, and set world economies back 50 years, all for political talking points. Sure, the unshaven masses sucking on government tit would be relatively unaffected. That is, until state and local bond ratings start to fall and investors stop supporting deficit ridden state governments who bond their way out of debt (exactly what's happening in CT right now). How very compassionate of you...

Recognizing what would be needed to effect a societal change of this magnitude isn't the same thing as desiring that upheaval.

[lordsphinx]

A stock market crash of the type you're talking about would inevitably result in massive, runaway unemployment and inflation, much like we saw in the Great Depression. You said it, not me...

A strong stock market and business optimism (regardless of who you think is responsible for it) is driving unemployment down and wages up, and re-positioning the USA as a global economic leader. If you're wishing for a crash to "reset" American politics, then you're wishing for unemployment, inflation, and poverty.

[cubby]

For the rational folk around here, February brings us into the second year of an unbelievably insane Trump Presidency.

We the rational are consistently amazed at the idiotic machination unique to this presidency.
We are amazed at the delusion that infects his followers like a drug induced dementia.

We are certain that Trump is going down, and that come November 2018 or November 2020 - things will be better.

That folks is where WE ARE DELUDED, Trump & co are winning. Their approach is winning - slowly at first, but it is changing the country at its roots.

And more people are falling for it.

The two months to 14th February, Trump has gained 5% on his support.
As of the 14th of February - he is more popular than at any time since May 2017.



Their crime - falling for a crook.
Our crime - complacency.

What kind of Dystopia lies ahead if that complacency continues ? Who knows.

I keep seeing pictures of a real-life Handmaids Tale. I agree - it's frightening and getting worse by the day. The Deplorables almost literally don't care about reality.

[Elegiac]

A stock market crash of the type you're talking about would inevitably result in massive, runaway unemployment and inflation, much like we saw in the Great Depression. You said it, not me...

Fairly sure that's what we already said, yes.

A strong stock market and business optimism (regardless of who you think is responsible for it) is driving unemployment down and wages up, and re-positioning the USA as a global economic leader. If you're wishing for a crash to "reset" American politics, then you're wishing for unemployment, inflation, and poverty.

As was said, stating what is necessary isn't actively desiring it. Market crashes are precisely one of the reasons I don't particularly like capitalism.

[Stormspark]

Right now the situation is mirroring the rise of Hitler. As I've said in other threads, right now the US is 1936 Germany. It's hanging on an edge right now, and it will fall one way or the other probably this year, possibly early next. The US will either turn back toward democracy, or go full into fascism.

[cubby]

Fascinating. You would put millions of people out of work, undercut the current trend of rising wages, destroy the retirement accounts of millions of Americans, and set world economies back 50 years, all for political talking points. Sure, the unshaven masses sucking on government tit would be relatively unaffected. That is, until state and local bond ratings start to fall and investors stop supporting deficit ridden state governments who bond their way out of debt (exactly what's happening in CT right now). How very compassionate of you...

I'm not sure you realize how bad Trump and his cronies (see also "crime family") are for both the United States and the world. They aren't even trying to tell the truth anymore.

These aren't political talking points. These aren't policy disagreements. This is a horrific change in the United States, and for many of us the only way out is through dramatic upheaval.

- - - Updated - - -

Right now the situation is mirroring the rise of Hitler. As I've said in other threads, right now the US is 1936 Germany. It's hanging on an edge right now, and it will fall one way or the other probably this year, possibly early next. The US will either turn back toward democracy, or go full into fascism.

I agree - I think Trump will brew up a war with NK (or whomever), drop a nuke or two, and we'll be stuck with the Trump Dynasty at the helm. Ivanka and Jared have already discussed who should run for President next.

[mvaliz]

I don't see any legal remedy to the problem, as all the legal remedies (congress, 25th amendment etc) are being denied.

At this time - the right are busy bowing to their Trump saviour, and the left are busy watching cat videos and porn.

The only action available to me is commentary, and that isn't going to change anyone.

I have to disagree on that on the principle that more and more elections around the country are going Democrat. Just today JT posted about the Florida special election going Democrat.

Now, that's obviously not a sign to be complacent, but it's also not what you're suggesting either.

Polls are polls... and right now there's been an upswing because of the wall street gains and his silly speech (of which there's always a bump in approvals).

Don't think that is a general "acceptance" of Dumbass Donnie dump... and I'm willing to bet you will see that number dramatically drop when the third manifestation of Robert Mueller appears! :P

[Dontrike]

His popularity is only up thanks to the State of the Union speech he gave. People think that his levelheadedness there is what we'll see later on down the road, but really that was just for show. Once he gets back to his usual shit those numbers will drop yet again. You can only fool people so many times before they hate you.

[Dacien]

Right now the situation is mirroring the rise of Hitler. As I've said in other threads, right now the US is 1936 Germany. It's hanging on an edge right now, and it will fall one way or the other probably this year, possibly early next. The US will either turn back toward democracy, or go full into fascism.

This is just not grounded in reality, and vastly overstates Trump. He's a blustery individual with policies that don't square with that bluster. Trump, the single man, as president, is not powerful enough to devolve the United States into Nazi Germany. That's absurd.

Not saying there aren't racial tensions, there have been for some time. But in 4 or 8 years, everyone on the left side of the aisle will likely be back to full-optimism mode à la Obama. Keep your head up, you'll make it through this right-wing time, just as us on the other side made it through 8 years of Obama without him "destroying America".

[PC2]

Trump doesn't need much popularity. He just needs the DNC to offer another train-wreck like Hillary.

[Elegiac]

This is just not grounded in reality, and vastly overstates Trump. He's a blustery individual with policies that don't square with that bluster. Trump, the single man, as president, is not powerful enough to devolve the United States into Nazi Germany. That's absurd.

If Trump weren't symptomatic of a deeper plague in the form of what has become of the GOP and its supporters, you might have a point.

Not saying there aren't racial tensions, there have been for some time. But in 4 or 8 years, everyone on the left side of the aisle will likely be back to full-optimism mode à la Obama. Keep your head up, you'll make it through this right-wing time, just as we made it through 8 years of Obama without him "destroying America".

Obama was left wing? Colour me shocked.

[schwarzkopf]

His popularity is only up thanks to the State of the Union speech he gave.

His state of the union did not last 2 months starting in mid December.