I really hate Jaina...

[ornichi]

Ill take jaina fanboys over silvanas fanboys any day. Foe however much jaina bashers want to imply shes crazy silvanas is 10 times worse

There always has to be some character to be bashed, there always have to be fanboys of those characters, so you have to kinda deal with it.

[Goldielocks]

The horde abused the Kirin Tor's trust by using Dalaran's resources to steal from the Alliance, so... Obviosuly they are going to be hostile towards the Horde... You don't keep being neutral towards the people who backstab you, that would be called being a moron... No one backstabbed the Horde and the Sunreavers to give them reason to break their neutrality, they just did it.

Doesn't mean that the Kirin Tor should have been Alliance aligned in response to the Sunreaver's actions. That's literally the definition of hypocrisy. She kicked them out for aiding one side and then went to aid the other.

[Ragnarocket]

Doesn't mean that the Kirin Tor should have been Alliance aligned in response to the Sunreaver's actions. That's literally the definition of hypocrisy. She kicked them out for aiding one side and then went to aid the other.

She kicked them out for abusing the neutrality of the Kirin Tor...the Kirin Tor THEN decided to go pro-Alliance. Actions have consequences.

[Goldielocks]

She kicked them out for abusing the neutrality of the Kirin Tor...the Kirin Tor THEN decided to go pro-Alliance. Actions have consequences.

lol what. So being kicked out of the Kirin Tor isn't a consequence?

ok

[Ragnarocket]

lol what. So being kicked out of the Kirin Tor isn't a consequence?

ok

Being kicked out of the Kirin Tor was indeed the consequence as was having the Kirin Tor be opposed to them for a while. I'm not sure why that needed clarifying.

[Deleted]

Jaina is just blah...shes the result of trying to add layers to a 1 layer character...

[Goldielocks]

Being kicked out of the Kirin Tor was indeed the consequence as was having the Kirin Tor be opposed to them for a while. I'm not sure why that needed clarifying.

Because I'm not talking about that. Jaina turned the Kirin Tor on the Horde. That's not being neutral. She kicked them out and was hostile towards them. Kirin Tor became neutral again in Legion, after an expansion and a half of being Alliance.

Aka, hypocrisy.

[Azahel]

Jaina is one of the few characters in this game that said "Ya know, I'm pretty tired of these Horde fucks screwing us over lately."

And then she cleaned Dalaran of blood elves. She is perfection

That's the thing. She gives them a chance, again and again. She tried to convince everyone to do the same.
Again and again the Horde went on to prove that they were indeed untrustworthy though. She just had enough.

[Ragnarocket]

Because I'm not talking about that. Jaina turned the Kirin Tor on the Horde. That's not being neutral. She kicked them out and was hostile towards them. Kirin Tor became neutral again in Legion, after an expansion and a half of being Alliance.

Aka, hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy if someone (the Horde) does something that causes you to take the action.

The Kirin Tor were the experts on big magical artifacts. The Night Elves found the Divine Bell and asked for help protecting it and dealing with it. The Kirin Tor, being the experts in magic that they are, agreed to do so. We have no evidence that had the Blood Elves found the Bell first they wouldn't have helped them in a similar way. The Kirin Tor helped EVERYONE with their magical issues.

The problem came from someone Horde aligned within the Kirin Tor doing something with their access and connections in that neutral organization to help the Horde out. When that came to light it was perfectly reasonable for said neutral faction to say "Well...if you guys are gonna act that way then we're not going to be neutral anymore. No more magical help for you and by the way get out of our city."

It sucks but I don't view it as hypocrisy. Just an action, then a reaction.

[Goldielocks]

It sucks but I don't view it as hypocrisy. Just an action, then a reaction.

I don't agree. You can't be mad at people for not being neutral and then do the same exact thing. Even after the Darkspear Revolution in 5.3 and then SoO in 5.4, Jaina was advocating for the Horde's destruction. She's the leader of the Kirin Tor at this time. It was made clear that the Horde, the majority, doesn't agree with Garrosh's methods. That's not neutrality. It's hypocrisy, no matter the reasoning.

[Ragnarocket]

I don't agree. You can't be mad at people for not being neutral and then do the same exact thing. Even after the Darkspear Revolution in 5.3 and then SoO in 5.4, Jaina was advocating for the Horde's destruction. She's the leader of the Kirin Tor at this time. It was made clear that the Horde, the majority, doesn't agree with Garrosh's methods. That's not neutrality. It's hypocrisy, no matter the reasoning.

It would be hypocritical in my view if at the same time as being mad about Rommath abusing the Kirin Tor for Horde gains Jaina was using the Kirin Tor for Alliance gains. Which I know a lot of people view as what she was doing with Darnassus. That's not how I see it. I always saw the Kirin Tor as protectors of magic first before this incident. Alliance or Horde they didn't care. They just tried to police the proper use of magic hence things like the Nexus War.

I guess we just see it differently.

[Goldielocks]

It would be hypocritical in my view if at the same time as being mad about Rommath abusing the Kirin Tor for Horde gains Jaina was using the Kirin Tor for Alliance gains. Which I know a lot of people view as what she was doing with Darnassus. That's not how I see it. I always saw the Kirin Tor as protectors of magic first before this incident. Alliance or Horde they didn't care. They just tried to police the proper use of magic hence things like the Nexus War.

I guess we just see it differently.

Khadgar seems to be taking it more seriously. The lifeblood of Azeroth is magical in nature, but he refuses to interfere with the growing conflict. The Horde were the ones who were looking to take advantage of it, and then the Alliance retaliated. That's true neutrality if you ask me.

The difference between Khadgar and Jaina is that he can let go.

[Schattenlied]

Most of what you're saying is true, but not only is Jaina a member of the UN, she's also a member of Country X and her country is supporting the invasion of sovereign land ruled by Country Y. Her actions predate both the bombing of Theramore and the Golden Bell, being 4.0 content. Jaina broke neutrality LONG before.

Take a hypothetical WWII where Germany never attacked France, who declared neutrality. But they still allowed the Allies to land on Normandy on route to attack Germany. Germany goes 'wtf France you said you were neutral, why are you allowing these guys to pass through your lands, use your roads, etc.'

If anything the Kirin Tor should've approached Jaina way back in Cata and said "If you want to use Theramore to attack the Horde you're going to have to leave the Kirin Tor, we're neutral."

Once again, no, that's not what she did, I will refer you again to my statement about the UN.

She did not claim herself to be neutral, but she conducted her duties to the neutral organization neutrally and did not abuse that neutrality in any way, unlike Sunreaver.

She wasn't even the leader of Dalaran at the time, Rhonin was, she in fact had little involvement with Dalaran during Cataclysm.

[Mehrunes]

The Kirin Tor were the experts on big magical artifacts. The Night Elves found the Divine Bell and asked for help protecting it and dealing with it. The Kirin Tor, being the experts in magic that they are, agreed to do so. We have no evidence that had the Blood Elves found the Bell first they wouldn't have helped them in a similar way. The Kirin Tor helped EVERYONE with their magical issues.

The problem came from someone Horde aligned within the Kirin Tor doing something with their access and connections in that neutral organization to help the Horde out. When that came to light it was perfectly reasonable for said neutral faction to say "Well...if you guys are gonna act that way then we're not going to be neutral anymore. No more magical help for you and by the way get out of our city."

It sucks but I don't view it as hypocrisy. Just an action, then a reaction.

Except the Kirin Tor already helped the Alliance out first. Because using magic against Horde soldiers trying to enter Darnassus goes beyond the scope of dealing with an Artifact and goes beyond the scope of neutrality even further. Jaina broke Dalaran's neutrality then whined about Surneavers doing the same. That's textbook hypocrisy.

And you may see things differently, but even Jaina did not. What Jaina did in Darnassus is more than the Kirin Tor did in Theramore (at least I don't remember them being engaged in the actual fights). Yet Jaina herself admitted that asking the Kirin Tor for help would be asking them to break their neutrality.

[Faerillis]

Honestly don't get what you're on about OP, I've never seen Jaina do anything wrong. In fact, I'd say she advocated for everyone constantly until the horde decided to to advantage of it constantly.

She advocated for everyone, while allowing her massive warport to constantly supply the Alliance with men, rations and munitions even building a massive highway to expedite the process... oh and only a stone's throw from Orgrimmar.
Jaina was what we would call 'Swiss Neutral'. "No I won't technically fight for you, but if you wanted to completely line our pockets and pretty well effectively treat us as part of your organization and cause well... we will neutrally allow you to do so."

[Ragnarocket]

Except the Kirin Tor already helped the Alliance out first. Because using magic against Horde soldiers trying to enter Darnassus goes beyond the scope of dealing with an Artifact and goes beyond the scope of neutrality even further. Jaina broke Dalaran's neutrality then whined about Surneavers doing the same. That's textbook hypocrisy.

And you may see things differently, but even Jaina did not. What Jaina did in Darnassus is more than the Kirin Tor did in Theramore (at least I don't remember them being engaged in the actual fights). Yet Jaina herself admitted that asking the Kirin Tor for help would be asking them to break their neutrality.

The Kirin Tor protected the Divine Bell from ANY interference. Jaina states she set traps to catch anyone from trying to mess with or steal the Divine Bell. The Kirin Tor were asked to help the Night Elves study and protect the incredibly magical artifact. Something that they do. Why is it odd that the Night Elves - who are only just now getting back into Arcane Magic would ask the Neutral faction who is incredibly skilled at dealing with such things to help them out?

Lady Jaina Proudmoore says: I had Darnassus LOCKED DOWN! Every fumbling rogue that tried to sneak into the city, I CAUGHT them! I snatched every two-bit charlatan that attempted to teleport through my traps!

She was protecting it from anything and anyone. She didn't expect that she needed to protect it from her own faction. A faction that tries to ensure that magical items of this magnitude don't fall into the wrong hands or are abused, like what happened with the Focusing Iris. Jaina was the perfect person to advocate for such a role in the world. She knew how terrible items like that could destroy entire cities. She was dedicated to trying to find peace between the factions again. She was a bit more wary certainly but she had calmed down.

How is what Jaina did in Darnassus any more supportive of the Alliance than what Rhonin did in Theramore? He posted Kirin Tor on the walls and came himself (just like Jaina did in Darn) to try and make sure the situation didn't turn violent. I don't believe they got involved in the actual fighting but they were there to make sure that no terrible magic was going to be used...which of course it was. There wasn't too much to do once they realized the Focusing Iris was involved.

I'll admit I don't recall the specific details of how the Kirin Tor supported Theramore past basically stationing themselves on the walls. It's been a while since I read Tides of War.

[cparle87]

Once again, no, that's not what she did, I will refer you again to my statement about the UN.

She did not claim herself to be neutral, but she conducted her duties to the neutral organization neutrally and did not abuse that neutrality in any way, unlike Sunreaver.

She wasn't even the leader of Dalaran at the time, Rhonin was, she in fact had little involvement with Dalaran during Cataclysm.

She wasn't THE leader but she was still on the Council of Six iirc. She had been since at least Wrath. It would be like Countries X and Y are at war with Country Z are at war, and a member of the cabinet of the UN Security Council that was supposedly trying to argue for an armistice was also the leader of country X. Don't you see the conflict of interest?

She spends her days at the UN saying "Oh we need to stop fighting." Then goes home in the evening and leads her own country that is helping Y invade Z's land.

[Schattenlied]

It would be like Countries X and Y are at war with Country Z are at war, and a member of the cabinet of the UN Security Council that was supposedly trying to argue for an armistice was also the leader of country X. Don't you see the conflict of interest?

This is not applicable, because Dalaran was not trying to argue for an armistice between the Alliance and the Horde at the time.

[Time Sage]

She wasn't THE leader but she was still on the Council of Six iirc. She had been since at least Wrath. It would be like Countries X and Y are at war with Country Z are at war, and a member of the cabinet of the UN Security Council that was supposedly trying to argue for an armistice was also the leader of country X. Don't you see the conflict of interest?

She spends her days at the UN saying "Oh we need to stop fighting." Then goes home in the evening and leads her own country that is helping Y invade Z's land.

Jaina joined the Council of Six post thereamore, and even the Council has a leader, at the time it was Jaina. Between founding Thereamore and it's fall, she cut ties with the Kirin Tor, doing her own thing. She actully wanted to rejoin as a simple apprentice but a prophecy left behind by Kraus said she should be on the council as it's it's leader

[iamthedevil]

I'd be fine with Varok being the Warchief. Sylvanas is just a horribly written character that has overstayed her usefulness for 4 expansions.

The good ol' "i don't like it so it's bad writing" schtick.