Sylvanas on the Buring of Teldrassil and Saurfang's Honor

[Nuniqt]

Cant we all agree that Sylvannas burned the tree to get the elves out of kalimdor and limit their invested interest in the *west*? If she could burn the exodar id light the match myself but im not sure about how flammable crystal spaceships are...

All of it was an elaborate ruse to trick the boy king and his dog into attacking lordaeron where she had rigged the whole place to blow years ago, thus decimating the alliance forces at the cost of a smaller capital city. Its like saying "Oh I'll take the big house on the West side of the street, you can live in the one I've been living in on the East side and btw I virus bombed the whole attic. See you next war..."

I think its tactical genius.

[Trassk]

Cant we all agree that Sylvannas burned the tree to get the elves out of kalimdor and limit their invested interest in the *west*? If she could burn the exodar id light the match myself but im not sure about how flammable crystal spaceships are...

All of it was an elaborate ruse to trick the boy king and his dog into attacking lordaeron where she had rigged the whole place to blow years ago, thus decimating the alliance forces at the cost of a smaller capital city. Its like saying "Oh I'll take the big house on the West side of the street, you can live in the one I've been living in on the East side and btw I virus bombed the whole attic. See you next war..."

I think its tactical genius.

Well if that's the case, serious question, what stops the games developers just making her the villain, garrosh 2.0, and another raid boss?

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Watching the Warcraft story evolve is beautiful.

It's like watching aids turn into super aids.

No no no, it's more like watching a rat left dead on a concrete surface and fast played as its body slowly decays over time until nothings left but a dark mark on the concrete

[Priestiality]

Well if that's the case, serious question, what stops the games developers just making her the villain, garrosh 2.0, and another raid boss?

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No no no, it's more like watching a rat left dead on a concrete surface and fast played as its body slowly decays over time until nothings left but a dark mark on the concrete

This is an insult to dead rats.

[Nuniqt]

The rest of the Horde will see her outfox the alliance with this strategy and build a wall along the sea(that she will obviously make the alliance pay for). They will see her selflessness in letting her own homeland burn for the greater good of the Horde, the LIVING Horde, and respect her sacrifice because she values their lives, having experienced death herself. She is a sin eater, which many tribal cultures would understand, taking on the attrocities of her tribe so that the rest may thrive and remain pure and honorable. Baine and Saurfang (who I love) cannot wage the kind of war rhat she can. They CAN claim the moral and honorable high ground but can they claim a quick and decisive victory for the Horde? No, I doubt it. They would get bogged down in politics or hamstrug by honor. Vol'jin saw this, thats why he made the Banshee Queen the next Warchief. Not one of the most seasoned orc vetrans of the first, second, and third wars, supreme commander against the AnQuraj forces and leader of the Kor'kron in Northrend. Not the son of the Tauren who united the tribes and has proven to be wise beyond his years...

This is WARcraft. And Sylvannas plays to win for her Horde.

Thats how I would justify her actions as a living horde member. Not as someone who throws life away to preserve her undeath (a la lich queen). She has seen death and returned and will not suffer to have her people (the Horde) meet that fate. She will be the alliance's boogie man and make it painfully clear that the Horde is not a target for Alliance aggression. She will reclaim Kalimdor in its entirety for team Red at the cost of her peoples homeland. If I was an orc in Durotar, or a troll in Sen'Jen, or a tauren in Mulgore, even a Goblin up in Azshara; I'd hear stories of her holding the line while her city was evacuated. I'd listen as she made the Alliance pay for every inch of ground and salted the earth before she left, leaving the Alliance *victory* to be a hollow one. And upon the return of the horde forces from the EK she would tell of how Kalimdor... the whole damn continent... was ours. How we would make an empire here that would last for generations. And I'd think damn. Thats my Warchief. Lok'tar ogar? Or well fucking played...

[Ragnarocket]

Well if that's the case, serious question, what stops the games developers just making her the villain, garrosh 2.0, and another raid boss?

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No no no, it's more like watching a rat left dead on a concrete surface and fast played as its body slowly decays over time until nothings left but a dark mark on the concrete

If you guys hate it so much why continue to pay attention to it out of genuine curiosity? I rather enjoy the stories I'm seeing come out of BFA currently and I thought Legion was a big step in the right direction after Warlords...

[ThePallyRanger]

"So die your warrior's death, High Overlord Saurfang. It means little to me. Perhaps I will raise your broken body to serve me once more.
Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son."

Ouch ... wtf. Is Saurfang really gonna put up with this shit?

[gzeus13]

Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son.

Brutal. 10char

[Ragnarocket]

"So die your warrior's death, High Overlord Saurfang. It means little to me. Perhaps I will raise your broken body to serve me once more.
Or perhaps you will have a chance to say hello to your son."

Ouch ... wtf. Is Saurfang really gonna put up with this shit?

"Watch your clever mouth, witch..."

Yeah Sylvanas ain't holding back.

[Aucald]

eh we havent seen very much of that to be honest. even the little we have is basically trying to paint sylvanas as the new horde superhero we're supposed to love.

I don't who the "we" is in this scenario - my main is a Blood Elven Death Knight whose eyebrow has been arched so long it's probably in the realm of deformity at this point.

but the big problem with bfa's story atm is this: the horde would not go along with sylvanas's plan because above all it's woefully stupid. there is a pretty big problem where silvermoon and the sunwell are not on kalimdor and her idea of protecting the new horde empire with the sea doesnt really work for lor'themar who should therefore have some pretty big objections to sylvanas's master plan. instead he's going along with her. why? it cant be explained.

There *are* objections to Sylvanas' master plan, though; that was part and parcel of what my post above implied. Based on the data-mined strings apparently the Champion themselves (or possibly Saurfang) questions the assault on Teldrassil - and that's just the most obvious part of it. The fact that Sylvanas is being challenged from multiple fronts demonstrates that her course isn't without its detractors, and the Horde isn't unilaterally following the course of this war in lock-step with their Warchief. Remember too that Sylvanas carries with her the "blessing" of the Loa via Vol'jin's dying proclamation - some of her would-be detractors may be waiting to see exactly what was meant by this before acting on their inclinations, perhaps feeling that to oppose Sylvanas might be condemnation of Vol'jin's memory.

now add to that the second issue which will come to light later: undercity gets destroyed by an attack from the sea. hmmmm. its really beginning to seem like theres no future in the idea of kalimdor being unattackable because it doesnt have a land border with the eastern kingdoms.

If the Alliance loses its power bases (Stormwind, Ironforge, etc. etc.) it won't have the capacity to field a threatening navy.

i mean these issues arent unforseeable. it would just be nice to have the characters in this story we're expected to care about have the intellectual abilities of adults. but in order to force through the terrible storyline we're about to suffer through blizzard is content to make everyone stupid apparently.

I agree that it's stupid to wage this feckless war in the light of both the fact that Azeroth is mortally wounded and bleeding out before our eyes coupled with the threat of the Void Lords waiting in the wings. But this is still a kind of realistic stupidity - the kind where two groups who feel unable to change their circumstances fall back on what they can still do: namely waging war on one-another based on ideological differences.

like seriously the first thing that should happen after the battle of undercity is sylvanas being impeached. shes very clearly leading the horde and the entire world into ruin. but blizzard will make her say "btw the horde kids!" and expect the players to lap it up. well im sorry for expecting better i guess.

Jingoism and propaganda are constants - not the domain of children or immaturity, really.

like i get what u are saying and it would be great to have a story that actually had some political intrigue and disputes etc. but i dont know how you can look at the last few years of wow and what we know about bfa so far and seriously think thats a level blizzard is willing or able to tell a story on.

Political intrigue doesn't make for a great video game, unfortunately. It's great for short stories and novels - but at the end of the day the story needs to facilitate a model where the players run around slaughtering mobs and completing quests.

[Kithelle]

Honor is one of the orcs best virtues, but it can be twisted. Garrosh held honor for just himself and his kind but not for anyone else.

Saurfang also doesn't fear death because he's actually a noble character who's put aside bias against his enemies to work to something better. Sylvanas has a flawed view of death because she's already damned and seen what that means for a damned soul, something only effecting undead. So whatever she's touting to Saurfang doesn't effect him.

She also, unlike him, fears death now, she fears returning to that void, and would kill anyone to avoid returning to it. This is why she rally's the horde, not for its survival, but to surround herself with pawns to avoid being killed and going to that dark place again.

At least some people get it, but the fanbois will continue to claim she is innocent little snowflake and she is all about the Horde, but you notice they were all quiet about that video with everyone at the table yelling *For the Horde* except her and her cronies...sure when it gets her something she is all about the Horde...but no fucks were given when yelling For the Horde doesn't earn anything or rally her meat shields to protect her.

[Wildberry]

If you guys hate it so much why continue to pay attention to it out of genuine curiosity? I rather enjoy the stories I'm seeing come out of BFA currently and I thought Legion was a big step in the right direction after Warlords...

Legion screwed up the threat scale big time, it failed to establish the credibility of the Burning Legion, most characters introduced were entirely flat, etc. The only reason it's marginally better than Warlords is because it doesn't involve time travelling to alternate universes.

As far as paying attention goes; I, and presumably others, have wasted so much time on this that we're practically locked in. Beyond that, people tend not to look away from train wrecks. That's what Warcraft Lore has devolved to, a giant train wreck. We know it's terrible, we just can't look away.

[Trassk]

At least some people get it, but the fanbois will continue to claim she is innocent little snowflake and she is all about the Horde, but you notice they were all quiet about that video with everyone at the table yelling *For the Horde* except her and her cronies...sure when it gets her something she is all about the Horde...but no fucks were given when yelling For the Horde doesn't earn anything or rally her meat shields to protect her.

like you say, its the fanbois, its because she's their dark, brooding waifu. They don't care about story or structure, they just care to getting their rocks off to someone they can look up on rule34, the story doesn't actually matter. seriously, make sylvanas a man, and see how well loved he'd be, leading the undead, doing all this same shit, he'd be bottom of a barrel right now.

[Mehrunes]

At least some people get it, but the fanbois will continue to claim she is innocent little snowflake and she is all about the Horde, but you notice they were all quiet about that video with everyone at the table yelling *For the Horde* except her and her cronies...sure when it gets her something she is all about the Horde...but no fucks were given when yelling For the Horde doesn't earn anything or rally her meat shields to protect her.

Your army of straw-men are still not real people and they don't reflect anyone actually posting on this forum.

[Kieldon]

Oh, I'm just waiting for Saurfang to cleave a smile on her face at some point.

[Wildberry]

So far Sylvanas hasn't killed any other Horde Leaders, that might be something.

In fairness to Garrosh, Cairne escalated and threw down the mak'gora challenge. He got what he deserved.

And she's been more successful than Garry so far.

I would certainly hope so. Not only did she have Theramore knocked out for her, she apparently brought at least some of the Eastern Kingdoms Horde with her for the advance into Ashenvale. Aside from a jab at Saurfang's expense, she seems, for some reason, not to have Baine et al. pitching a fit and undermining her at every turn as well.

[Trassk]

Your army of straw-men are still not real people and they don't reflect anyone actually posting on this forum.

I beg to differ.

[Mehrunes]

like you say, its the fanbois, its because she's their dark, brooding waifu. They don't care about story or structure, they just care to getting their rocks off to someone they can look up on rule34, the story doesn't actually matter. seriously, make sylvanas a man, and see how well loved he'd be, leading the undead, doing all this same shit, he'd be bottom of a barrel right now.

You're projecting a lot right now. In fact, the projection feels eerily familiar. Kinda reminds me of some particular poster not caring about story or structure when their favorite Orc went super sayian in Cata.

Also lel at the childish flailing around about Sylvanas being a woman. Arthas was much worse and was very well received. Despite being a man, imagine that.

[Arrashi]

like you say, its the fanbois, its because she's their dark, brooding waifu. They don't care about story or structure, they just care to getting their rocks off to someone they can look up on rule34, the story doesn't actually matter. seriously, make sylvanas a man, and see how well loved he'd be, leading the undead, doing all this same shit, he'd be bottom of a barrel right now.

"People dare to like things i don't - clearly they are wrong and stupid". And hell, i would love manvanas.

[Mehrunes]

I beg to differ.

Why, you think Sylvanas is an innocent snowflake?

[Kithelle]

I beg to differ.

Don't bother arguing with him...along with his buddy he is one of the biggest Sylvanas fanbois I've ran into on here, so anything you say you may as well say to a brick wall because all he is going to do is argue how Sylvanas is pure and good.

Infracted.