Saurfang and Anduin [Spoilers-Speculation?]

[Deleted]

"Go to war over shiny things"? Are we playing the same game? Anduin only went to war after Sylvanas pulled the attack on Teldrassil,

First thing when we get to silithus is attack goblins. This is the first act of agression between the factions after legion went down. I find it impossible that there wasn't any channels between the faction to discuss. Blaming SI7 would ask me to make the leap that SI7 attacks horde without the permission from Anduin or behind his back.

And again, breaking the cease fire instantly after legion goes down is just mind boggling. I don't think what happens in Teldrassil could be considered the start of a war, it might be the first big major loss to either side but thats what happens when two sides start one upping each other and this one started for azerite. Towards the end of silithus quests Khadgar gives up too saying: "I had hoped that after the war against the Legion, the people of Azeroth would build a new future together. But now the unity we forged has been shattered. As the life essence of Azeroth bleeds out, the leaders of the Alliance and Horde scrable to claim it as a resource. Blades are drawn, and the tides of war are rising once again." Khadgar giving up and saying this is the start of the war for me, not a big battle. It is the abandoning of the idea of an unified Azeroth.

Even if you disagree with all what i'm saying i don't think there's anything that would make me think that the pre-silithus cutscene and the quests after make sense. Talking about sacrifice and horrors of legion, then right after basically killing goblin grunt workers is just bad writing. They could have relayed the same info without having to kill npcs from opposite faction, they didn't which should matter.

[Qualia]

First thing when we get to silithus is attack goblins. This is the first act of agression between the factions after legion went down. I find it impossible that there wasn't any channels between the faction to discuss. Blaming SI7 would ask me to make the leap that SI7 attacks horde without the permission from Anduin or behind his back.

Again, attacking the Goblins in Silithus wasn't going to war. There wasn't any cease fire treaty during Legion either - the only treaty both factions had was broken way before that. What happened in Sillithus, just like Ashran, were just a conflict. Or, if we are to look at a real life example to make it easier to imagine, China ships shoot at Vietnam and Philippine ships in their conflict over an oil rig at an contested area a few years ago. Yet, no one ever said that China was going to war against Vietnam and Philippine, not even the parties involved - that was an example of an armed conflict that wasn't part of a war. A conflict can be the start of a war, but being part of a conflict doesn't necessarily means going to war.

Additionally, it's not a leap to assume that SI:7 attacked the Horde without Anduin's permission. There have been precedence(s). Very recently, Admiral Rogers and Genn also attacked the Horde during Legion - in a much worse incident than attacking Goblins - without Anduin's permission. In fact, they outright went against his order (he specifically told them that they could only engage if the situation demanded it) to do that. Anduin is still a very young and rather inexperienced leader, he isn't throwing his weight left and right and control everything yet. Unless it is explicitly stated that Anduin ordered us to attack the Goblin - which wasn't the case, I think that judging his character because of what you thought to be the case is a bit unfair.

[Deleted]

Again, attacking the Goblins in Silithus wasn't going to war.
Additionally, it's not a leap to assume that SI:7 attacked the Horde without Anduin's permission.

Well we can just disagree then. If Khadgar, a neutral entity in the game thinks that was the beginning of the war, it is for me, way more than any alliance or horde member saying it. Horde were there first, alliance arrived later and attacked without a word. This makes them the instigator at the event that Khadgar deems to have started a war.

SI7 stands for stormwind intelligence, them acting alone and thinking that it isnt seen as the orders of the faction would be odd. The quest says: "The crown has ordered SI:7 to infiltrate the goblin mining operation and collect any information we can find on this mysterious new substance." So far there hasn't been anything from Anduin after this. I'll think differently if we see Anduin confronting SI7 for doing this but i don't believe that's the case. More likely scenario is Anduin ordering this being under the influence of something. Or bad writing, or both. I don't believe Shaw doesn't listen to Anduin nor do i believe SI7 doesn't listen to Shaw.

If "attacking goblins in silithus isn't going to war" i don't really know what is tbh. If you can just kill opposite faction members and disrupt their projects at will without repercussions makes none of that matter for me. I also don't think this is anything like Ashran. Khadgar does mention how Alliance and Horde teamed up to defeat the legion, there was no faction v faction quests in broken shore or argus at all. This was the first quest (afaik) after legion where you go against them and maybe i'd be fine with that if it wasn't right after the speech from Anduin.

edit: I really like what they've done with Anduin up to this point. I just really dislike that there was a quest to kill goblins straight off the bat. The way Anduin spoke to his people made me think he understands their suffering, somehow not understanding the suffering of horde members is pretty nonsensical to me.

[Qualia]

edit: I really like what they've done with Anduin up to this point. I just really dislike that there was a quest to kill goblins straight off the bat. The way Anduin spoke to his people made me think he understands their suffering, somehow not understanding the suffering of horde members is pretty nonsensical to me.

The issue is that you are assuming the SI:7 were attacking Goblins under Anduin's order when it's more likely not. The quest said it clearly, as you quoted: infiltration and collect information. That was the order, no more, no less. There wasn't any other information, so the SI:7 simply weren't restricted in their method of collecting information. When we arrived, they just decided that they would take a more direct approach. It has nothing to do with Shaw not listening to Anduin, or the SI:7 not listening to Shaw - Anduin simply never remembered (or thought of) forbidding us from harming the Horde. It's not really that difference from real life, to be honest, do you think intelligence agencies actually have to go as far as asking for permission from the head of the country every single time they decide to use non-peaceful methods in their espionage operations?

How is attacking the Goblin "nothing like Ashran", though? In both cases, one faction was found information of something precious - Azerite in this case, and a powerful artifact in Ashran's case. The other faction decided not to sit around and get involved by both attacking their rival and trying to find it themselves. Additionally, you should stop treating Khadgar's, or any NPC for that matter, words as unconditionally true. The NPCs are subjected to being wrong - more so than us even, as we have the big picture while they don't. Case in point, you said there wasn't any faction vs faction on Broken Shore? Genn and Rogers literally opened fire and sank the Horde fleet right at start of Stormheim, and the Horde crashed the Alliance's Skyfire in return. The skirmish / conflict kept going on with the Horde killing Alliance troops (various 7th Legion Paratroopers and a Skymaster who was going to chase after Sylvanas, plus SI:7 spies) in the next few quests. That is arguably a lot worse than what happened at Sillithus. The Alliance and the Horde just never teamed up - except for the very start of the expansion and possibly on Argus (although we only saw mainly BE boarding from the Horde side) - that's why the Class Orders took charge: because the factions just couldn't and didn't want to work together after Broken Shore event.

Lastly, I suggest you look up the difference between a conflict and a war. Khadgar's words - especially since he was a neutral party - do not define what a war is or if the war between the Alliance and the Horde started.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Honestly I would kamikaze Ji even against a random tree. Everything's fine to me as long he'll stop reminding me the existence of Horde-aligned Pandaren.

I'd be fine with Pandaren becoming Alliance-only race. You guys already got cows and moose and foxes; why do you need pandas?

[Doffen]

I'd be fine with Pandaren becoming Alliance-only race. You guys already got cows and moose and foxes; why do you need pandas?

They should go back to be npcs only. I will /salute you when I pass you, don't worry Where do you want to be placed?

[Deleted]

I forget which happened first the burning of teldrasil or the invasion of lorderon?

On live, it's Alliance who's currently the aggressors, because they kill goblins mining Azerite.

You know, they could have sent some official representatives there and demand sharing the new resource. But now, they just start to murder workers instead. They are not even military targets.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

They should go back to be npcs only. I will /salute you when I pass you, don't worry Where do you want to be placed?

In a brewery please. One with good beer.

[Zulkhan]

I'd be fine with Pandaren becoming Alliance-only race. You guys already got cows and moose and foxes; why do you need pandas?

Indeed, redistribution of fur is quite due.

[Doffen]

In a brewery please. One with good beer.

Done! With all the good beer you want
Peppers!

[Deleted]

Lastly, I suggest you look up the difference between a conflict and a war. Khadgar's words - especially since he was a neutral party - do not define what a war is or if the war between the Alliance and the Horde started.

SI7 reports to and consults with Anduin for what reason then? If they start shit like this without an order it would make sense to either hang them or hand them over to the horde rather than starting another war where "we'll know sacrifice".
We already know the war is starting. These are clearly the first events leading up to them. You just seem hellbent on either insisting Anduin is nothing but honor or that horde attacked first in the upcoming war. This event at silithus was enough for Khadgar to give up the hope he gained from destroying legion. Khadgar giving up shows the magnitude of the issue being more than a conflict between two individually working entities outside of faction.
edit: I'm also not saying we're at war. I'm saying this is the event that started the path to it and without this there wouldn't be one.

[Arrashi]

Indeed, redistribution of fur is quite due.

On one side i really want to get rid of those asshole pandas. On the other hand, it would place us further from the lord. And we cannot let that happen.

[Qualia]

SI7 reports to and consults with Anduin for what reason then? If they start shit like this without an order it would make sense to either hang them or hand them over to the horde rather than starting another war where "we'll know sacrifice".

We already know the war is starting. These are clearly the first events leading up to them. You just seem hellbent on either insisting Anduin is nothing but honor or that horde attacked first in the upcoming war. This event at silithus was enough for Khadgar to give up the hope he gained from destroying legion. Khadgar giving up shows the magnitude of the issue being more than a conflict between two individually working entities outside of faction.

So when did the Horde send whoever responsible for Ashran to the Alliance? It's one thing if the Horde caught them and in that case, I doubt the Alliance would be making much of a fuss other than, maybe, sending a small team in to save the spies. However, it's another thing when they were free - who would love to be part of a faction with a leader that would throw you to the other faction as a sacrificial lamb while you was doing what your organization considered beneficial to the Alliance?

And if you are saying "it would have stopped the war" - no, obviously war was starting. It'd have started regardless whether the small skirmish at Sillithus happened or not. You keep saying as if that battle mattered in the big picture: it didn't. No one in the Horde, including Sylvanas, even bothered mentioning the dead Goblins. Anduin didn't even mention that skirmish over Azerite as part his reason of declaring war either. If it was as big of an incident as you are making it out to be, Sylvanas would have told us that, instead of "I'm going to conquer the world". In fact, both Sylvanas and Nanathos - even during the celebration parade - flat out said that they both longed to attack Stormwind, and in Sylvanas' explanation later, she said she found an opportunity with the discovery of Azerite that would change the nature of warfare. I'm still not sure why you kept bringing Khadgar up. While Khadgar is powerful and knowledgable, he is hardly a saint, someone who is always right, or all-knowing - he simply saw that conflict is starting again while there are other more important matters both side should have paid attention to. Thus, he decided he wouldn't get involved and would rather focus on those matters instead.

I'm not insisting that Anduin is nothing but honor, but you are creating headcanon out of nowhere, and then feel disappointed because of it. I don't actually have any bias against or towards any character, I just don't like seeing headcanons being spread around as facts. It's fine to make speculations and theories, it's not fine to present them to others as if they were the truth. Truth is, there isn't anything indicated that Anduin ordered us to kill the Goblin at Sillithus, and thus, you can't say that it was his decision to go to war at Sillithus - even *if* what happened in Sillithus was what led to the war (which it wasn't, by the way). If, for example, Nanathos decided to take an army of the Horde and nuke Teldrassil by himself without Sylvanas' order, I wouldn't say that Sylvanas (or the Horde) was going to war either - it might lead to a war nonetheless, but the action itself isn't going to war.

For that matter, again, I suggest you look up the definition of war and the difference between war and conflict, because whoever attacked first isn't even what we are discussing here. I'm correcting you that Anduin neither decided to go to war, nor ordered us to kill the Goblins. I'm not arguing whether the Horde or the Alliance attacked first in this war. Until you finally realize what a war is (hint: having skirmish is NOT a war, even if that is big enough to kills, for example, thousands - which obviously wasn't the case here), it'd be hard to discuss things properly. A leader might unintentionally cause a conflict to happen, but he (or she) can't unintentionally go to war. It's just not in the definition of the word.

[Zulkhan]

On one side i really want to get rid of those asshole pandas. On the other hand, it would place us further from the lord. And we cannot let that happen.

Life is made of hard choices indeed. Maybe doing a pilgrimage every year to the master's home will save our souls.

[Arrashi]

Life is made of hard choices indeed. Maybe doing a pilgrimage every year to the master's home will save our souls.

But its only the lord. You are forgetting about strongest horde-aligned pandaren - Uncle Gus ! This guy delivers sick jokes, and is savage enough to joke about varian even after his death.

[Zulkhan]

But its only the lord. You are forgetting about strongest horde-aligned pandaren - Uncle Gus ! This guy delivers sick jokes, and is savage enough to joke about varian even after his death.

What if he's secret weapon to send against Void Elves? The warlock joke would surely trigger them enough to start shrieking incoherently and just dissapear into a rift.

[Arrashi]

What if he's secret weapon to send against Void Elves? The warlock joke would surely trigger them enough to start shrieking incoherently and just dissapear into a rift.

Sylvanas: Deploy the plague Gus !

I mean, if uncle gus hijacked the whispers in void elves heads he could surely drive them to insanity with only few shitty puns. No saving rolls allowed.

[azshanna]

using blight and poisons , fighting in trickery ways etc by undeads was sth from the beginning and if saurfang had some problem with it he should leave it long time ago check the wrath gates cinematic as an example. in other hand dialogues between sylvanas and saurfang isnt sth that hurts a 100years old orc warrior ! hes not a crying baby like anduin or jaina !

orc were always most savage and furious race among all other races and from their raids on draenei or azeroth you can see they prefer war over peace ! they had problem with garrosh bcz he was seeking personal power and putting iron orcs over any other faction or horde ! they had a long time conflict with humans and elves ! now you think an old orc who fought elves for a long time is sad bcz of raiding darnasuss?

ppl think saurfang betray horde bcz varian let him take his son's body ! can u remember that saurfang spoke about his oath to his wife about bringing back their son body ? it would be an unnecessary conflict there if varrian didnt let him and there was no reason to do such thing and also it was showing respect from a warrior to another warrior(and it was a roleplay on ally side not a shared cinematic or dialogue for both faction)! this sole action is nothing important for betraying ! also sylvanas saved many horde warriors on broken shore by her valkyrie assissts which im pretty sure saurfang can admit it too !

from most of dialogues you can see sylvanas is taking all these actions to make a harder border between ally and horde to prevent further conflicts ! even in her dialogue with saurfang she mention that she care about horde and saving it more than dying !

[Benomatic]

We can't have another warchief in such a short space of time, neither can another horde leader be used as a "bad guy" so soon or if at all.

Saurfang is a relic, a throw back to the orcish hordes past traditions and culture. He most likely sees Sylvanas as an unnatural leader and the forsaken on the whole as an antithesis of the horde of old which came together in warcraft 3. He is an embodiment of the hordes ways.

Saurfang may very well be sick of war between the factions and may actually look to Anduin and even Velen as Blaine once did as a cordial envoy.

For all we know Sylvanas may have finally realised her ambitions by leading the horde under her rule with the forsaken at the forefront to forward her own personal goals and ambitions. A sleight of hand on her behalf to fully realise her ambitions since her descent into despair at Icecrown.

We helped Vol'jin overthrow and depose Garrosh, Vol'Jin had respect knew which direction for the horde was best.

A personal rivalry between Sylvanas and Genn will be a disaster for both factions. Saurfang meeting with Anduin may be the very reason why Saurfang wants to try and prevent all out hostility and war again. But for as far as we know we Lordaeron and warfronts that this will be out of our hands and too little too late.

[steelballfc]

Make Genn king of the Alliance and Baine warchief.It's alliance's time for musical thrones because I'm damn sure I'm sick of this.(Also Sylvanas was the worst choice for the warchief)

the loa has spoken

- - - Updated - - -

Last I checked , undead were not a corner staple of Alliance culture


This might be dumber than high elf threads.

or they at least trying

- - - Updated - - -

I swear if there isn't an Anduin/Baine, Jaina/Thrall or Aysa/Ji interaction this expac we all need to riot.

we should have riot since WOD