Skill Rating should be put into the system

[Arcanines]

I could not agree more!

Today People just judge logs, and actualy DPS or HPS. That sucks.

I am 100% for a skill system, that besides DPS (dps shouldn't even be that big part), also tracks:
- Interupts
- Soaking (at certain bosses, where soaking is actually needed)
- Target swapping (noticing notable damage on adds)
- Stuns and CC (when needed)
- Avoiding damage (aoe on the ground etc)
- Deaths at non-wipe attempts (to not dying by stupid things)
- Encounter-interactions, like clicking things, entering portals, using items etc (quite rare but exists)
- Etc, etc. Lots of stuff you can track.

Each factor gives a certain numer, lets say 1-10 and with lets say 10 categories, you can have a rating of 10-100. 100 if you max all categories. Some fights, that don't have interupts, would ofc not lower your score etc.

Would even take it further, and have this skill tracker also track if the player has enchants and consumeables at previous kills etc.

However, this would be automated, and not voted by people. The game can EASILY track all of this and summarize a skill level if the devs wanted. This would be in-game and overshadow logs, who really only benefit dps whores who might be terrible raiders with good dps.

I know other's has quoted you already, but just I need to say, all of the points above are useless, in a pug all that matters is experience and Mythic kills. I can be sure a mythic guy will know what to do, else no way he is at aggramar plus(anything below isn't cutting edge, and honestly are just throwing themselves at bosses IMO)

Interrupts: Only encounter this is done is argus, if you're doing it on any other boss its for sephuz period, you dont do it even purposely on mythic. If you even interrupt at all.
Soaking: Only first boss has it, but its often just assigned to the ranged squad. We have our lowest dps go for it, as the highest ones shouldn't have to do it, since we have too many people. The highest will do it, but if you can have a 1.9mil do it over a 2.6mil why not?

Target swapping: Anything but robots on kingaorth are just passively cleaved down as they don't matter at all. Whilst it'll also favor going pad specs. which also boosts your overall DPS. So padlords are already doing that shit.

Stuns/CC: uhmm. aggramar? But you can just do mythic strat, of perma slowing them, and its under 5 people that get ranking. again useless.

Avoiding damage: ?????

rest, yea I wont go over, you get the point, anything and everything will be broken. DPS and log reading is what matters for mythic, anything below is just dont suck a fat horse donger. We overgear content anyhow, if you do mechanics it dies.

[Battlebeard]

I know other's has quoted you already, but just I need to say, all of the points above are useless, in a pug all that matters is experience and Mythic kills. I can be sure a mythic guy will know what to do, else no way he is at aggramar plus(anything below isn't cutting edge, and honestly are just throwing themselves at bosses IMO)

Interrupts: Only encounter this is done is argus, if you're doing it on any other boss its for sephuz period, you dont do it even purposely on mythic. If you even interrupt at all.
Soaking: Only first boss has it, but its often just assigned to the ranged squad. We have our lowest dps go for it, as the highest ones shouldn't have to do it, since we have too many people. The highest will do it, but if you can have a 1.9mil do it over a 2.6mil why not?

Target swapping: Anything but robots on kingaorth are just passively cleaved down as they don't matter at all. Whilst it'll also favor going pad specs. which also boosts your overall DPS. So padlords are already doing that shit.

Stuns/CC: uhmm. aggramar? But you can just do mythic strat, of perma slowing them, and its under 5 people that get ranking. again useless.

Avoiding damage: ?????

rest, yea I wont go over, you get the point, anything and everything will be broken. DPS and log reading is what matters for mythic, anything below is just dont suck a fat horse donger. We overgear content anyhow, if you do mechanics it dies.

Okey, fine, I agree there are many flaws. But remember, the model I wrote, I wrote quite quickly, with the first things I though of, like an example of a system.

The main point is, I think we need something to further prove that you can play.
Ever so often I find myself applying to something and getting declined, especially in the start of a raid. Here is an example:

- Do you have curve?
- No, the raid came out yesterday...
- What is your ilvl?
- XXX
- I want only XXX+... Do you have logs?
- No recent ones, no one logged in the recent raids and I don't know how to log (honestly, most people don't know how to log, me included).
- Sorry, no invite.

This happens all too often, even though the player who apply is really good.

I simply want this added to the example conversation:

- Okey, but do you have a decent skill rating?
- Yes, here (Links SR), it's 5259
- Oh, nice!
*Invited to Group*

We really need more ways to get invited!

[Artemol]

you know its called proving grounds,get as far as u can on endless

[Arcanines]

Okey, fine, I agree there are many flaws. But remember, the model I wrote, I wrote quite quickly, with the first things I though of, like an example of a system.

The main point is, I think we need something to further prove that you can play.
Ever so often I find myself applying to something and getting declined, especially in the start of a raid. Here is an example:

- Do you have curve?
- No, the raid came out yesterday...
- What is your ilvl?
- XXX
- I want only XXX+... Do you have logs?
- No recent ones, no one logged in the recent raids and I don't know how to log (honestly, most people don't know how to log, me included).
- Sorry, no invite.

This happens all too often, even though the player who apply is really good.

I simply want this added to the example conversation:

- Okey, but do you have a decent skill rating?
- Yes, here (Links SR), it's 5259
- Oh, nice!
*Invited to Group*

We really need more ways to get invited!

Ye its called Mythic Achieves, get gud, can't remember the last time when I linked mythic achieves I was declined for being bad. Worst case scenario was being a dps with low Ilvl for argus where you're swarmed by 960s and i was 930. Easy as f to get into groups. Your system is bad. Logs are useless in pugs anyhow. How to get 90+ in heroic, just be geared. There default 90+

[XDurionX]

Personal skill rating for PVE has probably been discussed before but not in depth. Right now the game is just about item level for heroic and normal pugs, and to a certain extent for mythic raiding as well, but mythic raiding has achievement for each boss and guild management so that kind of reduced the need for personal skill rating a bit. What I'm suggesting is a skill rating on a scale of 0-10, which will help people to identify the actual skill of the player, getting rid of people who only bought their gear or got carried. This will also help to force players to improve their skills if they want to get in groups. The skill rating will be primarily based on two areas, 1. Standards for DPS and HPS (for tanks I dont know because I dont play one), how much DPS and HPS the player should be doing according to the item level 2. Execution of mechanics like running out of things, target switching etc. And something like if it's not the player's fault and they die, the ratings dont change. If they die to mechanics more than twice then the ratings go down. Should take all raids like LFR, normal, heroic or even mythic into account so players have no chance to be carried.

This is absolutely impossible. If there ever was a metric like this, people would exploit the system to the max instead of doing what they're supposed to do. Think meter padding et al.

[Deleted]

Ye its called Mythic Achieves, get gud, can't remember the last time when I linked mythic achieves I was declined for being bad. Worst case scenario was being a dps with low Ilvl for argus where you're swarmed by 960s and i was 930. Easy as f to get into groups. Your system is bad. Logs are useless in pugs anyhow. How to get 90+ in heroic, just be geared. There default 90+

Check his logs. Bad DPS, getting killed by molten flare in every HC felhound kill. Got two argus kills (one is a log called boosted, one is with his 10/11 mythic guild). He gets declined for having no gear, no xp and no skill. But he keeps telling people they should invite him because he used to raid mythic cutting edge (as example back in HFC where he parsed around 40%). So he is high skilled, super social and far from delusional. That´s why he can die to molten flare and still suggest "worst player" titles for people who can't move (check the new affix topic below)

We clear antorus in pugs on HC with multiple chars without mythic kills. Itemlevel 955-975. I don't whisper curve. I just tell the lead what we can and will do (pods, grips, CC on coven/aggramar, 1-x pantheon trinkets). No need for curve. There are so many pugs that you can get the right pug for every char. But that sometimes means you will only clear up to coven/aggramar, because your alt isn't that good or you have to carry your weight to clear the raid, why people like battlebeard have to rely on boosts and guild carrys.

[Battlebeard]

Ye its called Mythic Achieves, get gud, can't remember the last time when I linked mythic achieves I was declined for being bad. Worst case scenario was being a dps with low Ilvl for argus where you're swarmed by 960s and i was 930. Easy as f to get into groups. Your system is bad. Logs are useless in pugs anyhow. How to get 90+ in heroic, just be geared. There default 90+

I try to link old Cutting Edge: Boss Name achievements, but people don't care about that at all :/

[JackWest]

- Okey, but do you have a decent skill rating?
- Yes, here (Links SR), it's 5259
- Oh, nice!
*Invited to Group*

We really need more ways to get invited!

You mean "sry, but I want above xxxx rating. Decline"?

Coz even with system as what you want, this will be whats gonna happen to all the "casual joes" doing lfr and/or normal, the ones that cry "i cant get into pug"

[Battlebeard]

You mean "sry, but I want above xxxx rating. Decline"?

Coz even with system as what you want, this will be whats gonna happen to all the "casual joes" doing lfr and/or normal, the ones that cry "i cant get into pug"

Yeah, well ofc, if you lack ilvl, achiv, logs AND skill rating, you would get declined.

But adding Skill Rating could be useful for many people, like ex-mythic raiders who are returning to the game.

[klaps_05]

We should also get a PvE ladder where you can get ranked with your Skill Rating and if you are in the top 0.1% or so you get title, mount, etc. Maybe we can even have a live competition at Blizzcon with the best players trying to show off their Skill Rating and how good they are at soaking, interrupting, etc.

[Arcanines]

Yeah, well ofc, if you lack ilvl, achiv, logs AND skill rating, you would get declined.

But adding Skill Rating could be useful for many people, like ex-mythic raiders who are returning to the game.

Not having skill rating, is the same as no having curve. Solves absolutely 0, heck curve means more than skill rating, even if it can be bought, atleast it shows you did something. Your system is horrible in all ways possible. Atleast wclogs % gives a better overview, even if I can do stuff like this
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

In that log I joined a shitty 920 pug on my warlock to rank, as I had 7th percentile avg on all 11 bosses. due to getting hardboosted in HC to 960 from 877 110 boost gear. You tell group if they touch adds you're out. With your score system, I'd get 10/10 add dps, 10/10 boss dps, 10/10 CC, and 10/10 on mechanics, but 2/10 on avoid dmg taken aka the spinny guys dmg, as It takes me 25 sec to kill each wave by myself. If one parses 70+ avg you know they arent dead weight.. All i need to know is 70 avg which is easily gotten, as you can ignore every HC mechanic pretty much.

[Deleted]

The fundamental problem is the seemingly global need to distil and dilute something as complex and vague as "skill" into an all-encompassing, quasi-magical number.

[Battlebeard]

Not having skill rating, is the same as no having curve. Solves absolutely 0, heck curve means more than skill rating, even if it can be bought, atleast it shows you did something. Your system is horrible in all ways possible. Atleast wclogs % gives a better overview, even if I can do stuff like this
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

In that log I joined a shitty 920 pug on my warlock to rank, as I had 7th percentile avg on all 11 bosses. due to getting hardboosted in HC to 960 from 877 110 boost gear. You tell group if they touch adds you're out. With your score system, I'd get 10/10 add dps, 10/10 boss dps, 10/10 CC, and 10/10 on mechanics, but 2/10 on avoid dmg taken aka the spinny guys dmg, as It takes me 25 sec to kill each wave by myself. If one parses 70+ avg you know they arent dead weight.. All i need to know is 70 avg which is easily gotten, as you can ignore every HC mechanic pretty much.

It would be an addition, and another way to get in. I don't see anything negative by adding more ways to get accepted into groups.

If you don't have curve or super high gear, and neither you or anyone else have logs, you can feel pretty screwed. But if you have a saved skill rating, from a previous raid, it could show that regardless of the things you lack, you are still a really good raider and you can still get invited.

If you lack skill rating as well, yes you are equally screwed as current system, but at least it's ONE MORE way to find groups.

Neither of this should be needed though if groups weren't so ignorant. At the start of a raid, before I get curved, it's a living hell. Having good gear enough + ANY previous Cutting Edge achivement SHOULD always be enough to get invited, but apparently it's not.

[JackWest]

Yeah, well ofc, if you lack ilvl, achiv, logs AND skill rating, you would get declined.

But adding Skill Rating could be useful for many people, like ex-mythic raiders who are returning to the game.

Useful how? They wont have ‘skill rating’ as that number would lose its value from one tier to another so it would be reset

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Neither of this should be needed though if groups weren't so ignorant. At the start of a raid, before I get curved, it's a living hell. Having good gear enough + ANY previous Cutting Edge achivement SHOULD always be enough to get invited, but apparently it's not.

Groups arent ‘ignorant’. Its the level of the ‘average’ player being dogshit, coz people dont care if they drag 29 other people down by their lazyness and apathy. Yes, not everyone likes playing ‘hardcore’ and playing their best. But then said people shouldnt ask to be carried through content beyond their ‘capabilities’. And no you dont need ‘x skill rating’, curve or cutting edge. You just need to be able to show you are good, if you actually are. Lemme give you example from yday. I had to pug argus hc for pantheon upgrade because we didnt do it with guild. I applied to the first group for argus only, wrote my ilvl and progress(966 equipped and 5/11 mythic, didnt even link curve or any cutting edge) and got invited within 5 secs. And i am even frost dk, so nowhere near top desired classes.

[Deleted]

It would be an addition, and another way to get in. I don't see anything negative by adding more ways to get accepted into groups.

If you don't have curve or super high gear, and neither you or anyone else have logs, you can feel pretty screwed. But if you have a saved skill rating, from a previous raid, it could show that regardless of the things you lack, you are still a really good raider and you can still get invited.

If you lack skill rating as well, yes you are equally screwed as current system, but at least it's ONE MORE way to find groups.

Neither of this should be needed though if groups weren't so ignorant. At the start of a raid, before I get curved, it's a living hell. Having good gear enough + ANY previous Cutting Edge achivement SHOULD always be enough to get invited, but apparently it's not.

Your cutting edge are still from WoD and even there your logs are not really good and your cutting edge is late. And why the hell should I invite "mr die to molten flare" to Antorus because he has attend a mythic guilds farm run two years ago? It´s a total different raid and setting.

Your skill rating would be so low, that it wouldn't be another way to get accepted to groups, but another way to get declined from groups. Oh, it Battlebeard, he got the itemlevel and curve (boosted) so we could invite him, but now his official skill rating sucks, so nah, let him stay outside.

Btw: I get invited to groups even with lower item level than you.

[Deleted]

Personal skill rating for PVE has probably been discussed before but not in depth. Right now the game is just about item level for heroic and normal pugs, and to a certain extent for mythic raiding as well, but mythic raiding has achievement for each boss and guild management so that kind of reduced the need for personal skill rating a bit. What I'm suggesting is a skill rating on a scale of 0-10, which will help people to identify the actual skill of the player, getting rid of people who only bought their gear or got carried. This will also help to force players to improve their skills if they want to get in groups. The skill rating will be primarily based on two areas, 1. Standards for DPS and HPS (for tanks I dont know because I dont play one), how much DPS and HPS the player should be doing according to the item level 2. Execution of mechanics like running out of things, target switching etc. And something like if it's not the player's fault and they die, the ratings dont change. If they die to mechanics more than twice then the ratings go down. Should take all raids like LFR, normal, heroic or even mythic into account so players have no chance to be carried.

How do determine the "dps I should be doing". The possible output can easily vary by +- 20% due to stats/trinkets. What about cleave? If the adds die in 5 sec I do way less(even boss dmg) dmg than a group where the adds live 15-20sec

[KaPe]

How do determine the "dps I should be doing". The possible output can easily vary by +- 20% due to stats/trinkets. What about cleave? If the adds die in 5 sec I do way less(even boss dmg) dmg than a group where the adds live 15-20sec

It's still better than it would be with healers. Put 4 healers with 100% parses in a single group, watch their scores plummet to the ground. Does that mean they all suddenly became so much worse? Not really, there's just not enough healing for everyone to rank that high.

And that's just one of the things this mythical "skil rating" system would have to know if it were to have any sense.

[Deleted]

It's still better than it would be with healers. Put 4 healers with 100% parses in a single group, watch their scores plummet to the ground. Does that mean they all suddenly became so much worse? Not really, there's just not enough healing for everyone to rank that high.

And that's just one of the things this mythical "skil rating" system would have to know if it were to have any sense.

Yeah, agree. But we have the same opinion anyways.

[Battlebeard]

Useful how? They wont have ‘skill rating’ as that number would lose its value from one tier to another so it would be reset

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Groups arent ‘ignorant’. Its the level of the ‘average’ player being dogshit, coz people dont care if they drag 29 other people down by their lazyness and apathy. Yes, not everyone likes playing ‘hardcore’ and playing their best. But then said people shouldnt ask to be carried through content beyond their ‘capabilities’. And no you dont need ‘x skill rating’, curve or cutting edge. You just need to be able to show you are good, if you actually are. Lemme give you example from yday. I had to pug argus hc for pantheon upgrade because we didnt do it with guild. I applied to the first group for argus only, wrote my ilvl and progress(966 equipped and 5/11 mythic, didnt even link curve or any cutting edge) and got invited within 5 secs. And i am even frost dk, so nowhere near top desired classes.

Useful how? They wont have ‘skill rating’ as that number would lose its value from one tier to another so it would be reset

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Groups arent ‘ignorant’. Its the level of the ‘average’ player being dogshit, coz people dont care if they drag 29 other people down by their lazyness and apathy. Yes, not everyone likes playing ‘hardcore’ and playing their best. But then said people shouldnt ask to be carried through content beyond their ‘capabilities’. And no you dont need ‘x skill rating’, curve or cutting edge. You just need to be able to show you are good, if you actually are. Lemme give you example from yday. I had to pug argus hc for pantheon upgrade because we didnt do it with guild. I applied to the first group for argus only, wrote my ilvl and progress(966 equipped and 5/11 mythic, didnt even link curve or any cutting edge) and got invited within 5 secs. And i am even frost dk, so nowhere near top desired classes.

Well, the thing is, that when you are 960, you don't tend to struggle at all finding any groups. With 966 EQ, I guess that your bag ilvl is close to 970 and that is what they see when you apply.

By the way, the Panthaeon upgrade drops in all difficulties (excluding LFR) and Legendary has same drop chance all difficulties as well, and if you do it 1 difficulty, it can't drop in the other the same week, point is, if you only want Pantaheon upgrade or legendary, which most people do, you can just do Normal mode Argus, which is a faceroll, no need to go HC, which require alot more effort than Normal

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Your cutting edge are still from WoD and even there your logs are not really good and your cutting edge is late. And why the hell should I invite "mr die to molten flare" to Antorus because he has attend a mythic guilds farm run two years ago? It´s a total different raid and setting.

Your skill rating would be so low, that it wouldn't be another way to get accepted to groups, but another way to get declined from groups. Oh, it Battlebeard, he got the itemlevel and curve (boosted) so we could invite him, but now his official skill rating sucks, so nah, let him stay outside.

Btw: I get invited to groups even with lower item level than you.

I am not boosted, I have multiple HC clears, stop flaming.

Regardless, I am not using myself as an example per se, but I value a Cutting Edge from like MoP more than current Ahead of the Curve. ANY cutting edge kill is harder than ANY Ahead of the curve. Ex-mythic raiders will learn the tactics very fast, and overall perform a lot better. It's like riding a bike, it's not like you forget how to raid and suddenly suck.

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And what groups do you get invited to? Maybe I am picky with my selection, but being invited to like progress runs or groups that disband on Commander or Coven doesn't really count. I want full heroic clear pugs, with no or very few wipes. And if you are below 965, it's pretty much impossible to find such groups, even though it's doable with like 940 people.

[Deleted]

I am not boosted, I have multiple HC clears, stop flaming.

Regardless, I am not using myself as an example per se, but I value a Cutting Edge from like MoP more than current Ahead of the Curve. ANY cutting edge kill is harder than ANY Ahead of the curve. Ex-mythic raiders will learn the tactics very fast, and overall perform a lot better. It's like riding a bike, it's not like you forget how to raid and suddenly suck.

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And what groups do you get invited to? Maybe I am picky with my selection, but being invited to like progress runs or groups that disband on Commander or Coven doesn't really count. I want full heroic clear pugs, with no or very few wipes. And if you are below 965, it's pretty much impossible to find such groups, even though it's doable with like 940 people.

How do I think you are boosted and a bad player? Perhaps because your first (of 2) Argus kill is this: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done see the title? BOosts! See who died 16 seconds into the fight? Yeah, thats you.

Or Felhounds, one of the hardest bosses out there:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...translate=true battlebeard dies to an avoidable ground AoE after 2 mins
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...2&type=summary Battlebeard dies to a avoidable ground AoE after 22 secs.

Or your old cutting edge runs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/6289/8/

But wait, there is more. Cutting edge Archimonde on 5/18/16, but gorefiend on 10/11/16? And not only gorefiend, but all the bosses from Gorefiend to Mannoroth on the same day? Damn that is some progress. I got my cutting edge on 5/26/16, a bit after you. But I progressed every boss before that. And let me tell you, that I raided very casually in WoD, but still got Cutting Edge. Thats because you got get cutting edge after a year (which we both did). All your listed alts have no kills in WoD.

The runs I join look like this: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...7&type=summary 1 wipe, below 2 hours. So that are the runs you describe. But thats because we queue with 3 people and do all specials in the raid. All three do pods, all CC on coven and aggramar, I grip on aggramar. That helps alot to eliminate the pug factor.

As I told you before, if I am not able to tank, I suck. It comes down to a 61,3% best performance as frost (ranging from 39-86%). But thats a lot better than your incomplete 25,2. As Tank I go up to 88,9%. But the big difference is: I admit that I suck as DPS, you still think your performance is good. I stop poiting out, that you are bad, when you stop telling people that gear or missing curve are the only things, that prevent you from gettting into pugs.