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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by darkchas View Post
    Sorry, but i need to call you out, you twist ever word you post in lore. You really need to take a step back and go learn your lore. (you can see clearly you're a horde fanboy). and all you do is place your fingers in your ears and scream *lalalalala i'm not listening*, Please take a step back.
    Sorry, but unless you're able to support this crap with any evidence, it's utterly worthless as a call out, or even a post. Well, unless you see value in exposing yourself as an extremely delicate genius that can't handle poor innocent Alliance being called out on its shit, so you randomly fling shit hoping that the act of flinging shit itself will give you validity, which is what posts like this look like if you're unwilling to provide examples. You know, to actually call me out. In which case, you do you. The part in bold is particularly lulzworthy, because I address every point made that I disagree with and explain my position as to why I disagree with. Which robs you of any credibility even further.

    Hell, you couldn't possibly quote a worse post of mine in this thread to make your grand "point", since it's not even about actual lore, but logic and argumentation. So all your unsubstantiated flailing about me needing to "learn my lore" or being a fanboy isn't really relevant here.

    And to expose your lies for what they are even more, here's a challenge for you. In time leading to the eruption of faction conflict in Cata, do try to find an attack by either side earlier than the one described here: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kilrok_Gorehammer#Quotes Why this event? Why not, you said I twist every word I post in lore, so my portrayal of events leading to Cata is just as "false" as everything else. Weirdly enough, despite this supposed flaw of my posts no brilliant Alliance mind that was shit-flinging in my direction actually could provide an example. I'm sure a lore giant like you will fare much better though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Sylvanas did not disband the army of the horde after the Legion's war because she wants to go to war again , against stormwind. But she lacks the ressources, and the horde army is weakened.

    Then come Azerite, hence her " This change everything" we saw in the cinematic with Gallywix.

    Thus, she mobilize her army to attack the alliance because Azerite give her an edge and an advantage, and go to burn teldrassil with it.

    She thought the alliance would be weakened, but did not expect the retaliation of Anduin against Undercity.
    The alliance itself declares the Attack on Teldrassil as " a declaration of war ", and there are enough proof in the file showing that Sylvanas did invade with an army the land of the night elves, with the climax of this invasion being the burning of Teldrassil.*
    And? How is this supposed to be a counter-argument to what you quoted? You just repeated the fact that Sylvanas planned aggression. Which, once again (and as said even by an Alliance poster I quoted) is no true aggression. A true aggression is Alliance attack in Silithus. Which happens before Teldrassil.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    What I've read from some people in this thread is that the Alliance picked a fight with the horde in wrath when Varian declared war in the Undercity. I don't think this is really the case, given that this declaration was a response to all the aggression the horde had shown to the Alliance before the battle for Undercity. Agression like:

    Invading and annexing part of Ashenvale. It does not matter that the horde needs lumber, just because your nation needs something another nation has does not make a full scale invasion any less an act of pure aggression. Not to mention that they intentionally cut down more wood than they needed, leaving much of it to rot just to spite the night elves.
    Source:
    Do I really need one for this?
    Logging camps aren't really annexed territory.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Attacking Alliance forces all over Hillsbrad foothills. This includes the humans of the town of Hillsbrad, most of whom were civilians, the miners of the Azureload mine, again mostly civilians and the dwarves of Dun Garok. On top of this they also resurrect a Lich that they then release on Southshore.
    Sources:
    https://classicdb.ch/?quest=527
    https://classicdb.ch/?quest=552
    Except those "civilians" in Azurelode and Hillsbrad are targeted for being members of anti-Forsaken militia. It's unknown who started hostilities in Hillsbrad, by the time quests start the conflict is already ongoing.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Attacking Stromgarde in Arathi highlands. This includes killing Stromgarde defenders and even the prince of Stromgarde because a troll wants to steal their ancestral sword. Also the questgiver for the horde version of the Arathi basin quest describes the conflict there as a "true war", a conflict where the undead are trying to invade Strom and annex parts of it for resources that they will use for more war on the Alliance.
    Sources:
    https://classicdb.ch/?quest=8438
    https://classicdb.ch/?quest=643
    Stromgarde isn't an Alliance member ever since the aftermath of the Second War. Stromgarde defenders enlisting help from Alliance after the conflict started (with it also being unknown who struck the first blow) isn't Horde attacking the Alliance.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Attacking the High elves and Wildhammer dwarves in the Hinterlands on behalf of the Revantusk trolls.
    Source:
    https://classicdb.ch/?quest=7841
    Your own quest shows they attacked only the High Elves. Those High Elves joined the Alliance only in Cata.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Testing Biological weapons on human prisoners.
    Source:
    Arthas: Rise of the Lich king
    Prisoners like non-Alliance Scarlet Crusaders.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Any one of these events would be a valid casus belli, the only suprising thing about Varian's declaration of war was that it didn't come sooner.
    Also is there a source on the Alliance attacking the barrens before Garrosh attacked Ashenvale?
    Aside from Ashenvale all you've got is events where it's unknown who started the hostilities yet you claim it to be Horde's aggression based on nothing or events involving non-Alliance forces. And Ashenvale is outweigh by Alliance doing the same kinds of incursions in Horde territory of Mulgore, the Barrens and Alterac Valley (with the difference being that the point of the incursion is archaeological digs rather than lumber). And Kirin Tor holding Forsaken prisoner in Alterac. And Kirin Tor starting things in Ambermill in Silverpine Forest.

    As for Alliance attacking the Barrens before the invasion of Ashenvale, https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kilrok_Gorehammer#Quotes Before Cataclysm. Garrosh invaded Ashenvale only after (and because of) the Cataclysm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Dude was trying to tell me there were just tons of Lordaeron survivors in another thread, and couldn't provide source. Then he accused me of saying people waited around for the Scourge to kill them, which he couldn't find proof of. When called out on it he just fucked off the thread.
    I learned from them that Sylvanas enslaving Eyir would enslave all Val'kyr, because not only were those magical chains a curse, but also that curses apparently work that way in WoW.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    Same exact thing can be said about the Horde, especially when to many people on these forums Sylvanas is a innocent little flower.
    A claim still only said by the straw-men you constructed in your mind because you can't deal with arguments that offend your feeble sensibilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    When has the Alliance :

    - nuked cities
    - released plagues that kills everyone and makes land uninhabitable
    - forced creatures into slavery (war crimes novel)
    - used dark magic to create more soldiers
    - appointed a leader who even herself admits she's not too different from Arthas
    -Gnomeregan
    -A weapon that kills everyone, oh noes. I'll take "What's the point of weapons for $200, Alex". Also, only the accidental strain of Blight at Southshore has been said to make the land uninhabitable. Also, Blight isn't a plague. And speaking of making the land uninhabitable, also Gnomeregan.
    -MoP.
    -Tides of War.
    -You still failing to grasp 6 years later that Sylvanas was shit-talking Garrosh to annoy him is something that you should look into, not an argument. Even Garrosh was able to realize it for what it is. In one second.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    They don't even have to ask why. They know. The horde player is instructed that if he is to find any Alliance members in the operation, to kill them. They know there will be alliance spies there, because they expect it, because they are up to no good.
    Which still isn't a justification. Besides, the Alliance doesn't have proof the Horde is even making weapons for sure, let alone that they intend to use them against the Alliance, before they start to blow shit up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    did you do any Forsaken quests in Hisbrad, ever?
    I do not see any difference between forsaken and the scourge (cult of the damned).
    Cult of the Damned is alive, for once. They are also mind-slaves of the Lich King, which is kinda the opposite of the whole point of the Forsaken. Scourge in general also wants to wipe out all life and turn it into mind-slaves too. You're not looking very close.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eeram View Post
    But this isn't true like at all? if we are going based off the quest lines and everything there isn't a SINGLE quest that tells the alliance players to attack the miners. the only reason miners are getting killed in game is because they are flagged creatures. Shaw even tells us to WATCH the horde not once does he say kill or anything like that. and the other two quest say slow down the horde by blowing up the shredders and pick up the new ore.
    Where the horde quest says if you see ANY alliance kill them on sight.
    Today I learned that going to an outpost that does not belong to you or your faction and blowing shit up because you don't like what the people there are doing, with the intent to deliberately hurt their operation no less, does not constitute an attack if you don't kill anyone. Fascinating bit of information.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Just a small list of answers.
    Vinilla, not much here Horde attack Ashenvale/Azshara for resorces, Alliance moves forces into Alterac to protect archaeologists.
    The archaeologist expedition was already an incursion into Horde territory. Stormpikes themselves admitted that. In their first quest. Dwarves did the same thing in Mulgore and the Barrens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    In WotLk during the events of Battle for Under city the Alliance leadership at the time did not know that it was a small sect of forsaken that enacted the events of the Wrath gate, at the time they just thought it was more "evil Horde" doing evil things. It wasn't until later that Varian learned from survivors, alies, and spies about what really happened. Garosh proceeded to use this indecent to launch attacks upon Allaince forces at poorly timed points in Grizzly / ICC.
    Except that's not true at all. Jaina goes to Orgrimmar immediately after Wrathgate to learn what happened (back when Alliance had enough collective brain-power to ask for clarification first rather than using their fucked up perception of things to attack the Horde like they did in Stormheim). She learns from Thrall and Sylvanas of the coup in Undercity and the rebels being responsible for Wrathgate. She conveys that information to Varian.

    This very knowledge is the reason Varian went to Undercity. He knew it was a good moment to strike. Not only to punish the rebels for the Wrathgate, but to steal the city from the Horde while they temporarily were not in control of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Cata was mostly instigated from the events of the book wolf heart, the invasion of Gilneas, as well as other subterfuge from the Twilight's hammer.
    The fighting in Wolfheart takes place after Cataclysm. Alliance invasion of Barrens happened before Cataclysm. The war in Cata was only a continuation of the war declared by Varian in Undercity anyway, since The Shattering says the factions only had a truce after WotLK.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Mop was a play by Garosh to kidnap Anduin while he was at sea which happened to lead to the discovery of Panda Land.
    The same war as in WotLK and Cata.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Legion is kind of a gray area, It is alluded to that the events in Azuna happen before Stormheim, and it's with the information that we gain their in addition to the events of the broken shore that Gen decided to attack the forsaken fleet later on, though this point hasn't been clarified by blizzard so it's hard to say.
    Sylvanas wanting to steal the power of "v" is no justification for an attack. And events of the Broken Shore is them retreating because it was necessary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    BfA is the first time Alliance has really attacked first, but it stands in good reason why they did. Goblins (who are known to do things mostly for profit) of the Horde are mining something (That with just a silver of said object radiates immense power) for unknown reasons.... The Alliance is most likely thinking the Horde is going to use it for War/Conquest, especially with their current leader, and their track record with powerful objects in the past...
    If you ignore all of the times above, sure. I mean, even your inaccurate portrayal of Undercity shows the Alliance attacking first, just using incorrect information as a justification, so #consistence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Castrum View Post

    The Alliance won the Second War because of Gul'dan. If the Orcs hadn't been divided, canon says they would have won.

    Garrosh's pseudo-war was a rousing success. Theramore destroyed, Ashenvale essentially Horde-controlled, Azshara lost to the Horde, the Alliance incursion into the Barrens and Mulgore halted, the Gilneans driven overseas, Southshore obliterated. Sure looks like success to me.

    As for the Siege of Orgrimmar, the Alliance never would have breached the gates, had the Horde been united. Can't count it as much of a success for the Alliance if they needed serious aid to accomplish the task.
    And?Germans on WW2 were wining until hitler decide to do the most idiotic thing and war on many fronts.

    You can play really well in the game of war but do the most idiotic thing and lose the whole thing in a minute.

    And by the end of MoP the Horde was left with the capital of their faction sacked and many of their population dead while the Alliance become the strongest mortal faction on the planet.
    Mage Tower Final Result:
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  3. #143
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kittenwolf View Post
    I must admit (as a Horde player) I would be over the moon if the storyline in BfA ended up with:
    * Sylvanas pulls yet more shenanigans, something Wrathgate level and even a lot of the Horde start getting antsy about her
    * Vol'Jin's spirit is called up, and he has a nice long discussion with the other Horde leaders
    * Sylvanas is called on her shit by the other horde leaders, and they demand she step down
    * She brands them traitors and refuses
    * Players side with the other horde leaders and send a delegation to the Alliance
    * Alliance leaders listen to the issues and agree to help deal with Sylvanas (and any Undead that follow her) and sign a peace treaty with the Horde (again). Greymane says that they're all traitors and morons and this is all a plot, and storms out
    * Combined Horde/Alliance assault on Sylvanas, similar to the MoP assault on Garrosh
    * Greymane attacks Sylvanas on his own, badly wounds her but gets killed
    * Sylvanas tries to pull a "Great work, this was clearly the plan all along, you've brought the Alliance here, lets wipe them out" to the assembled Horde
    * Baine tells her her time has ended, and crushes her
    * Horde declares Baine the new warchief, as the one that's clearly the most even-tempered of the leaders left

    Sylvanas and Greymane being dead, there is much rejoicing on all sides.
    I have to say, that's some of the most boring, bland and unimaginative shit I've ever read. It wouldn't have looked great pre-MoP but now reading a similar "prediction" for BfA after we have dealt with that same identical shit a few expansions ago is genuinely revolting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darktbs View Post
    many of their population dead
    Are implying the Horde suffered a greater deal of losses compared to the Alliance?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post


    Are implying the Horde suffered a greater deal of losses compared to the Alliance?
    Lorewise, they should,they had a Civil War along side a Faction war.

    But considerign Blizzard inconsistence with Population numbers...
    Mage Tower Final Result:
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  5. #145
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And that doesn't validate Alliance attacking them one iota. Just as the paranoid Troll commander in Ashran isn't validated by Alliance archeologic mission.
    While the situations were almost identical, is also worth noting that while the events concerning Azerite occurs after the supposed rekindled hostilities due to the perceived betrayal concerning Varian's death and Genn's attack in Stormheim, not to mention the fact that the Legion has been already dealt with at this point, back in Ashran the war against the Iron Horde was still raging and Alliance and Horde were still supposed allies against the common threat, especially after the new established truce post-MoP. The Alliance moving behind the Horde's back to get artifacts with potential military applications screamed of shady business and even in Stormshield you get a couple of Night Elves wondering if the Alliance was going to make a responsible use or not of this newfound power.

    It's still a matter of fear and distrust on both sides but I always found the Ashran circumstances slightly more questionable on the Alliance's side. The only variable capable to "even" the different situations is only the supposedly greater power and destructive potential of Azeroth's blood. Apart that little more, though.

    What's really interesting though is that in the Ashran case no one spent more than 5 seconds to quickly deem the Horde the aggressors of the situation, quickly handwaving the same motivations that are now leading the Alliance to attack the Horde in Silithus as mere Horde warmongering because the Alliance would never, ever do anything questionable with a potential superweapon. Because Alliance can't do anything bad and whatever.

    But here we are now, the Alliance has found themselves within those very shoes and mental gymnastics to somehow deem the Horde once again the actual "aggressor" rule supreme. Seriously, there's a depraved and twisted beauty in all of this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darktbs View Post
    Lorewise, they should,they had a Civil War along side a Faction war.

    But considerign Blizzard inconsistence with Population numbers...
    To an extent yes. However those should be easily evened by some of the huge losses Garrosh caused to the Alliance in a couple of occasions, most notably the obliteration of Theramore (full to the brim of Alliance military coming from all races) achieved with the mana bomb and wasting a relatively little number of troops and the Alliance fleet basically torn apart by his enslaved Kraken. It's all novel stuff but perfectly canon and so it should count.

    It's also worth noting, as said many times, that Garrosh's followers in the end were almost all Mag'har, Blackrock and Dragonmaw, in other words all the later, cospicuous additions following Cataclysm. That means that orcs coming from the original "New Horde" of Thrall weren't really that impacted as it may have seemed in-game (hence the "vast majority of orcs sided with the rebellion" comment).
    Last edited by Zulkhan; 2018-02-12 at 02:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  6. #146
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
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    The Horde arent "evil", they're just the "bad guys", by human ethics.

    Well, maybe the Forsaken are a bit evil, but you can't blame them, since they almost have no feelings, lorewise.
    But yeah, the whole thing with the plagues is borderline evil i'd say.

    But Orcs...
    You invade, you commit genocides, you are beaten, spared, and given a land, but you still want to expand into other people's lands.
    They're not evil. Just ungrateful and honorless, from an Azerothian perspective.
    BUT.
    By Orcish ethics, they weren't ungrateful.
    In Orcish (and Troll) culture mercy is for the weak, and humans were fools.
    Orcs lived in the inhospitable Draenor, were if you want something you fight the other guy and take it from him.
    And that is considered normal, not wrong. Because you grow up thinking it is him or you.

    Orcs culture in a nutshell:
    -Nice thing you got there. Orc want it.
    -Err... but it's not yours.
    -Orc fight you and take. Is fair. Is Orc way.

    The Trolls, yeah you could say they are baddies, but at lease they mind their own business.
    Sure, they will kill you on sight. And eat you.
    But they understand mine and yours, and right and wrong. For the most part.
    Last edited by Alex86el; 2018-02-12 at 08:24 AM.

  7. #147
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Logging camps aren't really annexed territory.
    Setting up multiple military bases and logging camps, attacking locals on sight in a perimeter around the area you took over and attacking local military bases certanly seems like annexation to me. And that is something we know the horde did without provocation purely because they wanted the resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except those "civilians" in Azurelode and Hillsbrad are targeted for being members of anti-Forsaken militia. It's unknown who started hostilities in Hillsbrad, by the time quests start the conflict is already ongoing.
    They aren't targeted for being part of an anti-forsaken militia, the questgiver says: "We are to quell the human infestation until our apothecaries can develop the new plague." they are being targeted becuase they are humans. The ones the quest has the player kill aren't called "Hillsbrad guard" or "Hillsbrad militia", they are called "Hillsbrad farmer", "Hillsbrad farmhand" and "Hillsbrad peasant".
    And although Hillsbrad is also an Alliance questing zone, there are no quests that have the player attack the horde at all.
    There is no indication whatsoever that the conflict in Hillsbrad has been anything other that one-sided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Stromgarde isn't an Alliance member ever since the aftermath of the Second War. Stromgarde defenders enlisting help from Alliance after the conflict started (with it also being unknown who struck the first blow) isn't Horde attacking the Alliance.
    fair enough that they werent a memeber of the alliance, but as for who struck the first blow, the horde being there is the first blow. The forsaked have a claim on Lordaeron being mostly its former inhabitants, but they have no such claim on Stromgarde. Therefore any uninvited horde prescense there is an invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Your own quest shows they attacked only the High Elves. Those High Elves joined the Alliance only in Cata.
    On the right side of the page you can see that the quest I linked is part of a chain, which ends with this quest where you kill a bunch of gryphons, drench a spear in their blood an cover it with their feathers. You then plant it in the middle of Aerie Peak and kill any Wildhammers that try to stop you or remove the spear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Aside from Ashenvale all you've got is events where it's unknown who started the hostilities yet you claim it to be Horde's aggression based on nothing or events involving non-Alliance forces. And Ashenvale is outweigh by Alliance doing the same kinds of incursions in Horde territory of Mulgore, the Barrens and Alterac Valley (with the difference being that the point of the incursion is archaeological digs rather than lumber). And Kirin Tor holding Forsaken prisoner in Alterac. And Kirin Tor starting things in Ambermill in Silverpine Forest.
    I agree that the digsite in Mulgore was aggressive, but it was established in Cycle of hatred that one year prior to the wow's story starting the barrens was considered neutral, and therefore the dwarves setting up a digsite there is not an act of aggression, given that the keep looks like it took some time to build.

    And as far as Ambermill is concerned, the questline (link you can see the rest of the questchain on the right side of the page) only says the Dalaran mages just wanted to reactivate an energy node in Ambermill "...and use its energies for some greater purpose." The questgiver seems very keen that this be stopped, but never explains why. If anyone is the aggressor there, its the forsaken attacking a Kirin'tor village.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    As for Alliance attacking the Barrens before the invasion of Ashenvale, https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kilrok_Gorehammer#Quotes Before Cataclysm. Garrosh invaded Ashenvale only after (and because of) the Cataclysm.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I learned from them that Sylvanas enslaving Eyir would enslave all Val'kyr
    Off-topic, but wasn't that her plan?
    Last edited by mmocf37e5efb08; 2018-02-12 at 12:01 PM. Reason: typo

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Setting up multiple military bases and logging camps, attacking locals on sight in a perimeter around the area you took over and attacking local military bases certanly seems like annexation to me. And that is something we know the horde did without provocation purely because they wanted the resources.
    Annexation is a pretty formal thing. Alliance would need to acknowledge their new rule over the territory they had an incursion in. The nature of the logging camps in Ashenvale is pretty similar to Dwarven digsites. The Dwarves in them also attacked the Horde on sight.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    They aren't targeted for being part of an anti-forsaken militia, the questgiver says: "We are to quell the human infestation until our apothecaries can develop the new plague." they are being targeted becuase they are humans. The ones the quest has the player kill aren't called "Hillsbrad guard" or "Hillsbrad militia", they are called "Hillsbrad farmer", "Hillsbrad farmhand" and "Hillsbrad peasant".
    And although Hillsbrad is also an Alliance questing zone, there are no quests that have the player attack the horde at all.
    There is no indication whatsoever that the conflict in Hillsbrad has been anything other that one-sided.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Questangerous!


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    fair enough that they werent a memeber of the alliance, but as for who struck the first blow, the horde being there is the first blow. The forsaked have a claim on Lordaeron being mostly its former inhabitants, but they have no such claim on Stromgarde. Therefore any uninvited horde prescense there is an invasion.
    The only Horde outpost in Stromgarde at the time was Hammerfall. Were Orcs were very much "invited". Either way, even if Horde invades third parties it means nothing to Alliance-Horde relation, just as was the case with Gilneas in 4.0.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    On the right side of the page you can see that the quest I linked is part of a chain, which ends with this quest where you kill a bunch of gryphons, drench a spear in their blood an cover it with their feathers. You then plant it in the middle of Aerie Peak and kill any Wildhammers that try to stop you or remove the spear.
    Fair enough. Though, to be specific, technically the Revantusk weren't Horde members at the time either. I don't think they officially joined even in Cata, unlike the High Elves. And the player's lore status is of somewhat hypothetical nature.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    I agree that the digsite in Mulgore was aggressive, but it was established in Cycle of hatred that one year prior to the wow's story starting the barrens was considered neutral, and therefore the dwarves setting up a digsite there is not an act of aggression, given that the keep looks like it took some time to build.
    The same book later on explicitly calls Barrens Horde territory. It's ancestral Tauren land. Besides, neutral territory isn't a usage of the term neutrality that conveys the same term as neutral state, i.e. a third side to Alliance and the Horde. The context of that excerpt indicates it being neutral as in a place where the factions can interact without repercussions, unlike say Orgrimmar, where human forces would most likely be met with arrows in their faces.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    And as far as Ambermill is concerned, the questline (link you can see the rest of the questchain on the right side of the page) only says the Dalaran mages just wanted to reactivate an energy node in Ambermill "...and use its energies for some greater purpose." The questgiver seems very keen that this be stopped, but never explains why. If anyone is the aggressor there, its the forsaken attacking a Kirin'tor village.
    And according to the Forsaken quest givers (one of which was a former Kirin Tor member IIRC), this greater purpose threatened the Forsaken's very hold on Silverpine, which urged an immediate reaction, then they are relieved when the manipulated energies fade at the end of the questline.


    Quote Originally Posted by marojo60 View Post
    Off-topic, but wasn't that her plan?
    All we know is that she wanted to enslave Eyir. Given that she can create an infinite amount of Val'kyr, there was no reason to capture any other current Val'kyr. I think she even calls her a source of Val'kyr when she complains about her failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  9. #149
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Annexation is a pretty formal thing. Alliance would need to acknowledge their new rule over the territory they had an incursion in. The nature of the logging camps in Ashenvale is pretty similar to Dwarven digsites. The Dwarves in them also attacked the Horde on sight.
    I don't think the party being annexed needs to acknowledge the annexation for it to be valid, for example during ww2 Germany annexed northern France while the free french government still maintained that all of France was theirs. Some of the horde members in Ashenvale also seemed to consider the territory they inhabited theirs, like one of them saying: "We received reports that Ashenvale outrunners left Silverwing Outpost not long ago, and now sneak near our territories in the forest."

    And while I agree that the digsites were also aggressive they only used violence to keep people out of their digsites, while the horde in Ashenvale actively maintain the offensive by attacking night elf outposts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The link is dead, but I assume it's a link to this quest.
    Fair enough, it's proof that there has been violence both way, and puts into question who started the conflict. My money would still be on the forsaken starting the conflict given their talk of "cleansing the human infestation" and the fact that none of the ones mentioned in the quest text are soldiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The only Horde outpost in Stromgarde at the time was Hammerfall. Were Orcs were very much "invited". Either way, even if Horde invades third parties it means nothing to Alliance-Horde relation, just as was the case with Gilneas in 4.0.
    So I looked around a little bit and I found a quest indicating that Stromgarde might have rejoined the Alliance before vanilla, this is it. It refers to Refuge Pointe as an Alliance camp implying that Stromgarde was part of the Alliance at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Fair enough. Though, to be specific, technically the Revantusk weren't Horde members at the time either. I don't think they officially joined even in Cata, unlike the High Elves. And the player's lore status is of somewhat hypothetical nature.
    That makes sense. I never considered that they never explicitly said the Revantusk were with the horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The same book later on explicitly calls Barrens Horde territory. It's ancestral Tauren land. Besides, neutral territory isn't a usage of the term neutrality that conveys the same term as neutral state, i.e. a third side to Alliance and the Horde. The context of that excerpt indicates it being neutral as in a place where the factions can interact without repercussions, unlike say Orgrimmar, where human forces would most likely be met with arrows in their faces.
    I'll take your word for it, I never read the book, I only checked the wowpedia page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And according to the Forsaken quest givers (one of which was a former Kirin Tor member IIRC), this greater purpose threatened the Forsaken's very hold on Silverpine, which urged an immediate reaction, then they are relieved when the manipulated energies fade at the end of the questline.
    He says that, but he also has no way of knowing if that's the case. The Kirin'tor might have wanted the energy to fight the worgen or the scourge. And even if the Kirin'tor was planning on using the energy to drive the forsaken out of Silverpine it doesn't change the fact that the forsaken attacked first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    All we know is that she wanted to enslave Eyir. Given that she can create an infinite amount of Val'kyr, there was no reason to capture any other current Val'kyr. I think she even calls her a source of Val'kyr when she complains about her failure.
    That makes sense, though I'm not sure which is better or worse. Enslaving an entire race or breeding a slave race. Especially given Sylvanas' reluctance to use mind control on the undead she raises.

    I also want to say I really like that we can have a civil discussion about this without having it turn into the shit-flinging it usually turns into.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Castrum View Post
    Yeah, no crazy warmongering lunatics in the Alliance. No sir.
    If there are any, then they've become warmongers because of specific members of the Horde which give it a bad image. Note that these do not include the tauren, trolls and the majority of the orcs.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2018-02-12 at 03:54 PM.

  11. #151
    The Patient Castrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    If there are any, then they've become warmongers because of specific members of the Horde which give it a bad image. Note that these do not include the tauren, trolls and the majority of the orcs.
    Genn has a hard-on for killing Sylvanas for no reason other than his pride. She did what she was commanded to do by Garrosh, same as he has done for Varian/Anduin. There are also a ton of bloodthirsty douchebag commanders in the Alliance who see all Orcs as filth that must be exterminated (the Icecrown airship dude comes to mind).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darktbs View Post
    And?Germans on WW2 were wining until hitler decide to do the most idiotic thing and war on many fronts.

    You can play really well in the game of war but do the most idiotic thing and lose the whole thing in a minute.

    And by the end of MoP the Horde was left with the capital of their faction sacked and many of their population dead while the Alliance become the strongest mortal faction on the planet.
    Lol, Horde are Nazis.

    If the Alliance was so strong after MoP, why were they unable to dominate Draenor? Why did they need the Horde to fight alongside them at the Broken Shore? Why was Genn unable to push Sylvanas out of Stormheim? Why did the Alliance need the Horde to retake Suramar? Why invite Horde heroes to board the Vindicaar? Why lose Kalimdor to Sylvanas and nearly lose their battle for the Undercity, despite massively outnumbering the Horde?

    The Alliance has always been the weaker faction. The Horde has just seemed weaker due to internal strife.

  12. #152
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedragon View Post
    Vinilla, not much here Horde attack Ashenvale/Azshara for resorces, Alliance moves forces into Alterac to protect archaeologists.
    Aside from busting into Horde territory and tearing up the mountains, the Alliance forces were sent there to exterminate the Frostwolves for the "sovereign imperialistic imperative", not to protect archaeologists.

  13. #153
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Theramore and Southshore and Teldrassil say... goodbye.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Aside from busting into Horde territory and tearing up the mountains, the Alliance forces were sent there to exterminate the Frostwolves for the "sovereign imperialistic imperative", not to protect archaeologists.
    It was the first bg where the Horde wasn’t an aggressor, if I remember correctly.

  15. #155
    The Horde burning Teldrassil is the start of the conflict in this one.

  16. #156
    Immortal Nnyco's Avatar
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    because you cant be evil when your faction colors are blue/gold
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewmaster Kolee View Post
    Theramore and Southshore and Teldrassil say... goodbye.
    Theramore happened 3 years after the start of the war, Southshore happened a year after the start of the war. The war started by Alliance. Teldrassil happens after Alliance attack in Silithus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Theramore happened 3 years after the start of the war, Southshore happened a year after the start of the war. The war started by Alliance. Teldrassil happens after Alliance attack in Silithus.
    Again like dozens of people have told you in previous threads. The war was started by the alliance in response to horde aggressions. You act as if the fact that the war was started by the alliance makes them the bad guys. No.

    The alliance "attack" in Silithus because Sylvannas is clearly gathering up Azerite for ill intentions.

    It's blatantly shown through the majority of faction conflict zones where horde are brutally slaughtering alliance whether they're civilians or not, burning down forests and destroying their homes. Meanwhile in the alliance victorious zones they're "pushing back" the horde lol.

    Simply level a new character from 1-60 and from 80-90 in the panda zones (since most questing experience between those are neutral) and you'll see. (though back then was Garrosh)

    In the current timeline, the Horde has Sylvannas, which isn't much better.

    As for your habit of posting "ALLAIANCE STARTED THE WAR". Yes they did, what's your point? Hitler technically didn't start the war despite wanting to mass murder people based on the religion, culture, ethnicity and physical capabilities. It was technically the countries that responded to his aggressions if you want to use that kind of logic.

    I really don't understand what you're trying to achieve with your constant blatant RPing heavily anti-alliance posts. And I say this as someone who mains horde (a blood elf though so technically that gives edgy neckbeards the right to call me alliance).

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by VomitPrincess View Post
    As for your habit of posting "ALLAIANCE STARTED THE WAR". Yes they did, what's your point?
    He is trying to point out that they started it to the alliance fans. He is ok with it.

  20. #160
    Because Horde players told me the Alliance was the boring "goody two shoes" faction. "Humans and friends" sure. But goody two shoes? Genn? Lmao.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

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