I Cant Wait For the Raiding Scene To Die

[Deleted]

You are talking about "evolving" to something that has been tried, and has failed every time... That's not an evolution, evolution implies improvement, if it has failed every time, it's not an improvement.

The genre can evolve just fine if WoW doesn't change, know why? WOW'S NOT THE ONLY GOD DAMNED MMO. If WoW doesn't give you what you like LOOK somewhere ELSE.

I just gave you two games that do what you are looking for, go frekin play them, if you're still interested in it after 2 years, come back and tell us all about your experience and use that experience to argue for why it should come to WoW, I doubt you will be, it gets old fast for most people. You will either enjoy it, in which case, you can stay there, or you will realize it is stupid and come back to WoW's style.

But let me tell you something 100%.
If WoW dies is because it refused to evolve into something greater.

And the things i said are not well developed in other games.
Im pretty sure the "bounty" system in BDO is shit.
Im pretty sure there is no rewards for being a "red player" in BDO.

This systems have never been worked on or been polished to an extreme well made final product like only Blizzard can do.

[Varitok]

A side note about the "future" of MMOs, there isn't one, it's a dieing breed of gaming for 1 reason, time. People don't have the kind of time anymore to dedicate to a game which is why games types such as MoBAs and FPS shooters are still doing so well, they don't NEED 2-3 hours to complete an objective, only 30min-1hour most of the time.

Thats just wrong though. The new trends are "games as a service". Constant updates, constant reasons to keep logging on and playing. The reason is lack of innovation, not lack of time. MMO's aren't pushing boundaries anymore, especially WoW. The market is stagnating.

[Cathbadh]

This mentality is what keeps the genre from evolving.

"leave WoW alone"
"nothing needs to change"

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Removing raiding would remove a pretty sizeable segment of the player base. I know I would drop the game in a heartbeat if raiding didn't exist, and I'm sure I'm not alone. How fun would your open world be with fewer players? With fewer players, it would be harder to gank lowbies or murder people gathering herbs or whatever else PVPers fill their time with.

You talk about the genre evolving yet there's one MMO out there that is more successful than all or most of the others combined, and that's WoW. A game with raiding at its end game and plenty of things to do for non-raiders seems to be the recipe for success. Why change that? How does emulating less successful games rather than continuing doing what works help the game evolve?

[Castrum]

Given how little Blizz cares about innovation these days, I'd say this is a pipe-dream. They couldn't even innovate for Broken Shore ffs. A frontline battlefield that never changes? Wow, GG.

[Granyala]

I refuse to believe that...MMO's are only a dying breed because they REFUSE to evolve.
If what it needs to evolve into is activities that dont take a lot of time then be it.

But i refuse to believe MMO's are a dying breed.

MMOs always were a niche product. Wow getting this mainstream was a fluke. Now the genre is returning to being a niche.
I agree that Raids being the "end all be all" is kind of annoying esp if you lag behind in gear to a completely ridiculous degree as it is in WoW, where your contribution as a non raider doesn't matter any longer. Why should I even attempt to play well in e.g. LFR when no matter what I do, raiders outperform me by 100-200%? Makes absolutely no sense.

Still, WoW is what it is and it has always been that way. DEVs won't change a formula that worked well for then unless forced. If you don't like it, stop wasting your time. Realize that it is only a video game and move on.

[Varitok]

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Removing raiding would remove a pretty sizeable segment of the player base. I know I would drop the game in a heartbeat if raiding didn't exist, and I'm sure I'm not alone. How fun would your open world be with fewer players? With fewer players, it would be harder to gank lowbies or murder people gathering herbs or whatever else PVPers fill their time with.

You talk about the genre evolving yet there's one MMO out there that is more successful than all or most of the others combined, and that's WoW. A game with raiding at its end game and plenty of things to do for non-raiders seems to be the recipe for success. Why change that? How does emulating less successful games rather than continuing doing what works help the game evolve?

If it aint broke don't fix it? The hell game are you playing? This shit has been broke for a long time and only getting worse. They take a little bit of a dip into the deep end with mythic+ something different and its wildly successful. This game has been broken since cataclysm, the cracks just keep getting deeper and unlike past lead devs, they don't talk to the community, make stupid decisions (clearly for money reasons) and then act surprised when they get negative feed back.

WoW got fat and lazy on its pedestal.

[Schattenlied]

But let me tell you something 100%.
If WoW dies is because it refused to evolve into something greater.

And you obviously know what "greater" is, right? Despite probly being some 19 year old posting from his mother's house who has no idea how game design works?

This systems have never been worked on or been polished to an extreme well made final product like only Blizzard can do.

Plenty of other companies are capable of making extremely well made final products.

This idea you have has never been made into an extremely well made final product because the idea itself is flawed for mass interest. Most people do not like PvP in MMOs, you are suggesting making an MMO the revolves almost entirely around it. It will fail... And this is coming from someone who does like PvP in MMOs quite a lot, it will fail.

Go play Archeage. Games already exist to do what you want, stop trying to force WoW to change to conform to you, and go play something that already does.

There is a reason WoW doesn't do much innovation, it's super fucking expensive to do and the risk/reward is not favorable, investors don't like that. So they wait for others to make the stupid risks first, if they work out, they usually adopt it, if it fails, they don't, and what you are suggesting has been tried repeatedly and has failed every single time, it's not worked out on a large scale once, not because of poor systems, or gameplay mechanics, but because people just lose interest.


On that note, other PvP focused MMOs are in development right now, like Crowfall, doesn't do exactly what you're looking for, but there's certainly no raids involved and a whole load of PvP, go support them.

[Varitok]

MMOs always were a niche product. Wow getting this mainstream was a fluke. Now the genre is returning to being a niche.
I agree that Raids being the "end all be all" is kind of annoying esp if you lag behind in gear to a completely ridiculous degree as it is in WoW, where your contribution as a non raider doesn't matter any longer. Why should I even attempt to play well in e.g. LFR when no matter what I do, raiders outperform me by 100-200%? Makes absolutely no sense.

Still, WoW is what it is and it has always been that way. DEVs won't change a formula that worked well for then unless forced. If you don't like it, stop wasting your time. Realize that it is only a video game and move on.

"it is what it is" is the exact reason why WoW is dying. Refusal to take chances and make big leaps.

[Granyala]

"it is what it is" is the exact reason why WoW is dying. Refusal to take chances and make big leaps.

Sorry but there are plenty of crappy, PvP focused MMOs out there. WoW does not need to make the same mistake.

Or better yet: go play a real PvP game where skill matters and not equipment or time dumped into the game.

[TriHard]

U know what OP, I've had enough of ur shit

ur mum gay

[Deleted]

U know what OP, I've had enough of ur shit

ur mum gay

What shit?

My last thread was about how good Legion was...

[Alex86el]

as an old nolifer raider, i have to say, i agree.

a game like wow has the money, staff, and knowledge to make their game fit all playstyles.

there should be equal gear to be gained, by either raiding, 5mans, pvp, crafting, or soloing out in the world.

but i doubt we will see this any time soon.

blizzard seems to think that 3v3 and Mythic+++ is the way to go, because of tournaments.
and of course, Raiding, because the majority of (fucked up in the head) people, crave routine (and timewalls, and dailies).

[Wondercrab]

While I have no great urge to see the raiding scene die, I do agree with the general sentiment that viewing raids as the be-all-end-all of progression content is holding back the genre.

Simply put, I do not think PvE encounters designed around groups of 10+ players are conducive to good game design. It tends to constrain and limit the things you can do, often resulting in stagnant instance design and limiting the playstyle opportunities of many classes. There is a very good reason why no other genre designs multiplayer co-op with this many people in mind. Just think about how many abilities have their usefulness significantly curbed, or outright removed during raid encounters. Most forms of CC fall under this umbrella despite being some of the most effective and rewarding skills to use in a smaller group setting. A lot of support abilities run the risk of either being too powerful or too weak (or requiring awkward separate rulesets) when they have to be balanced around both 5-player and 20-player content.

The worst constraint of raiding, though, has to be what it does to encounter and level design. Raids rarely have interesting, difficult, or rewarding trash mobs, and many of them are just mini raid bosses that share all the same immunities, shutting down interesting ways players might deal with them. The layout of big corridors and wide open circular or square boss arenas is so routine it allows little room for organic environmental storytelling, nor cool gimmicks that take advantage of the terrain.

Adding so many players into one instance honestly just causes gamebreaking problems with the way many individual mechanics are supposed to work, and as a result raids have to be designed with a very specific template in mind in order to avoid those problems.

While I still think raiding has its place, the main appeal has always been the spectacle and atmosphere of having so many players in one location. It's because forty players fighting to bring down a dragon is epic as hell brah, not because it results in a well designed game. Granted, there is also the tactical and organisational challenge of raiding that some people enjoy, but I don't think that number is anywhere near great enough to justify the amount of resources dedicated to the raiding scene.

I feel like raids are best suited to gameplay that focuses first and foremost on spectacle, typically stuff that's more casual in nature than our current raids. Small group content is really where MMOs tend to shine, and I think if dungeons received the same amount of attention raids do the genre as a whole would be much improved. The vast majority of great co-op games focus on teams of 2-5 players, because once you start adding more the core design starts to break.

[Arkthugal]

An MMO is a genre of endless possibilities.
Guilds of players could take over the open world.
I could be a "wanted" criminal for killing other players and having a price on my head.

Didn't we have this game and it was called Everquest and WoW stomped it in every possible way specifically BECAUSE it had instanced content?

[Deleted]

While I have no great urge to see the raiding scene die, I do agree with the general sentiment that viewing raids as the be-all-end-all of progression content is holding back the genre.

Simply put, I do not think PvE encounters designed around groups of 10+ players are conducive to good game design. It tends to constrain and limit the things you can do, often resulting in stagnant instance design and limiting the playstyle opportunities of many classes. There is a very good reason why no other genre designs multiplayer co-op with this many people in mind. Just think about how many abilities have their usefulness significantly curbed, or outright removed during raid encounters. Most forms of CC fall under this umbrella despite being some of the most effective and rewarding skills to use in a smaller group setting. A lot of support abilities run the risk of either being too powerful or too weak (or requiring awkward separate rulesets) when they have to be balanced around both 5-player and 20-player content.

The worst constraint of raiding, though, has to be what it does to encounter and level design. Raids rarely have interesting, difficult, or rewarding trash mobs, and many of them are just mini raid bosses that share all the same immunities, shutting down interesting ways players might deal with them. The layout of big corridors and wide open circular or square boss arenas is so routine it allows little room for organic environmental storytelling, nor cool gimmicks that take advantage of the terrain.

Adding so many players into one instance honestly just causes gamebreaking problems with the way many individual mechanics are supposed to work, and as a result raids have to be designed with a very specific template in mind in order to avoid those problems.

While I still think raiding has its place, the main appeal has always been the spectacle and atmosphere of having so many players in one location. It's because forty players fighting to bring down a dragon is epic as hell brah, not because it results in a well designed game. Granted, there is also the tactical and organisational challenge of raiding that some people enjoy, but I don't think that number is anywhere near great enough to justify the amount of resources dedicated to the raiding scene.

I feel like raids are best suited to gameplay that focuses first and foremost on spectacle, typically stuff that's more casual in nature than our current raids. Small group content is really where MMOs tend to shine, and I think if dungeons received the same amount of attention raids do the genre as a whole would be much improved. The vast majority of great co-op games focus on teams of 2-5 players, because once you start adding more the core design starts to break.

as an old nolifer raider, i have to say, i agree.

a game like wow has the money, staff, and knowledge to make their game fit all playstyles.

there should be equal gear to be gained, by either raiding, 5mans, pvp, crafting, or soloing out in the world.

but i doubt we will see this any time soon.

blizzard seems to think that 3v3 and Mythic+++ is the way to go, because of tournaments.
and of course, Raiding, because the majority of (fucked up in the head) people, crave routine (and timewalls, and dailies).

It was a pleasure reading your posts.
Thank you for that

[Sundreamer]

GW2 tried the 'no trinity roles, no raids'-route for a while and lost players after a while. adding raids brought some back to a game that was otherwise exclusively 5 (or was it 6?) man dungeon content and people have been nagging about the lack of raids for a long time

"I could be a "wanted" criminal for killing other players and having a price on my head." sounds like archage

so i wouldn't count on it dying any time soon...people are too set in their ways.

trial of the crusader was the most enjoyable raid for me cause you didn't have to deal with shitty trash mobs...and people actually complained about the lack of said trash mobs...like fuck ya'll

[Jastall]

This mentality is what keeps the genre from evolving.

"leave WoW alone"
"nothing needs to change"

''Evolution'' is a buzzword that means nothing. What you want already exists, and it's not what WoW offers. Far as I'm concerned polished raiding is the one thing that is really unique to WoW and that Blizzard does well. There's nothing to ''move past''.

It's also a bit weird that you say that when Blizzard made efforts to expand the end-game in Legion with stuff like WQs and M+.

[Nnyco]

yeah, lets get rid of the one thing that keeps the mmo gerne alive

geez op

[vipers]

don try to fix it when it ain't broke

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Maybe then the MMO genre will evolve.

Just think about it.
Where would we be today if "raids" were no longer the pillar of the MMO genre?
Dont get me wrong, i like raids but do they really have to be the highest point of a MMO?
Why are all MMO's centered around this idea that "raids" need to be the pillar of everything?

So much wasted potential on a open world genre and we have to accept that the highest point of it is "raids"...pisses me off.

If you are reading this and you like raiding then i'm sorry. I would be mad if someone else said the same thing about PvP.
But man, seriously, it really makes me salty that "raiding" is considered the highest pinnacle of gameplay in MMO's.

An MMO is a genre of endless possibilities.
Guilds of players could take over the open world.
I could be a "wanted" criminal for killing other players and having a price on my head.

I dont know what the future of MMO's is but "raids" is not it.

Just another day waiting for the MMO genre to evolve. Nothing new here.

I agree. Don't get me wrong I have loved raids for a long time. But it has become a den of people that worry more about keeping others out unless it benefits them directly. Lots of very toxic people as well that use raiding as some sort of "lookie who goodie" type of social status. I think things like mythic+ are the future. Small content that you can do with people you really want to or can pug easily enough to a decent enough level. It doesn't take hours on end a night. If one person drops you can get a friend in to replace or even pug it easily enough if you group is there. All these things are a pain in the ass with raiding.

Don't get me wrong I don't think mythic+ is perfect by any means. But it has show a LOT of people that their is a future in MMOs that isn't built completely around having to kneel down to 20ish people, some of which you will hate being around, just to accomplsih content in a game you like to spend your time in.