Mage V Warlock

[ossyc]

Yeah not an original title I know.......

I have both Mage and Warlock.

I'll start off by saying i love my Mage, and for me personally, is much more fun to play (all 3 specs) than Warlock. I only like playing Destruction on Warlock as it's a little like fire spec, the other 2 specs are boring as hell for me.

I know this game is not based on 1v1, however I cannot believe how much more powerful my Warlock is against Mage, the disparity is quite shocking. When I face a Mage, whatever spec they are, I'm never below 90%. Most just just run away, it's crazy.

I get that Mages have more mobility, but why is the difference in survivabilty so great as we aren't glass cannons anymore?

Been playing since wow launched and this appears to be growing.

[Visu]

There seems to be a disparity in a 1v1 matchup between a mage and a warlock in the current build of WoW.

This was more or less balanced in Wrath. Blizzard's continual changes to the armor spells (especially Mage Armor, in this context) culminated in the armors being baked into the shields. This eliminated player choice. Fire or frost mages can no longer choose the Mage Armor analogue at all. This change also dramatically cut uptime on the "armor" effects. In PvP, these effects apply only when the cooldown-restricted ~200-600k shields are up.

Add to that the fact that PvP health pools are generally larger now and that damage is reduced overall because of PvP templates. As you pointed out, the "glass cannon" design philosophy that allowed mages to thrive in this setting (and many other PvP settings) no longer exists.

Also: (1) warlocks have copious self-healing and mages don't; (2) warlocks have larger health pools than mages do; and (3) warlocks have a broader survivability toolkit (absorb/spell reflect, pet CC, etc.).

Warlocks seem to have the upper hand in WoW Legion.

[The Archmage]

Are we talking World or Instanced PvP? Because almost no class has hope to defeat an Affliction Warlock in World PvP, except maybe Rogues. So it's not really a Mage balancing problem.

In instanced PvP, i don't see them as this brutally superior. Yes, they have the upper hand, but as Arcane i can easily blow them up if the stars align. A good CS followed by a BE silence open a pretty big window of opportunity to deal some damage. Obviously, i need everything ready to go in order to even try, while a Warlock without cds nor defensives ready can still fight me.

[CptEgo]

I've never even killed a Warlock, ever.

- - - Updated - - -

Let me just compare my Mage to my Holy Paladin:

Mage:
Blink.
A pretty much worthless absorb shield.
Frost Nova, completely worthless.

Holy Paladin:
Wears plate.
+30% Armor.
8 second complete invulnerability shield.
+1 extra life (LoH).
A very good stun.
Can heal himself forever.
Does very close to the same damage on a single target.

Yea things are fine.

[Crudence]

I have both mage an warlock. Mage being my main and the lock being something I have played a bit recently. And I feel that my lock is leagues above the mage in pvp. Sure, if left alone my mage can be devastating, but if I get a lock, DH or something on me I can't fight. I don't have a chance. I feel fire is the one spec where I can do something. I have more mobility as I can pop combustion and run around with instant spells. However, as affliction I just dot and drain and never die. And I do so much dmg and healing. And I definitively do not have more dmg as mage. My 1,5 mill glacial spikes are nothing compared to my chaos bolt spam with lock. Mage is only good for running away and resetting the match. Unless there is a DH chasing me. Then I die. Fuck DH, I hate them so much in pvp.

[Piesor]

Just play what's more fun for you. And that discussion is not going anywhere until all classes have been adjusted properly and brought in synergy with the Heart of Azeroth / Azerite Armor for BfA.

Let me just compare my Mage to my Holy Paladin:

Mage:
Blink.
A pretty much worthless absorb shield.
Frost Nova, completely worthless.

Holy Paladin:
Wears plate.
+30% Armor.
8 second complete invulnerability shield.
+1 extra life (LoH).
A very good stun.
Can heal himself forever.
Does very close to the same damage on a single target.

Yea things are fine.

Ooookkayyyy

[Thrif]

Well duh. Mages have better kiting and control tools, which is pretty worthless in a 1v1 against a ranged enemy, so it's about as biased as a matchup as you can get. And mages still outnumber warlocks like 5 to 1 in high rating arena games, so I'd say they're doing perfectly fine in pvp, just not in the hands of low tier players in biased matchups.

[ossyc]

Well duh. Mages have better kiting and control tools, which is pretty worthless in a 1v1 against a ranged enemy, so it's about as biased as a matchup as you can get. And mages still outnumber warlocks like 5 to 1 in high rating arena games, so I'd say they're doing perfectly fine in pvp, just not in the hands of low tier players in biased matchups.

Such a fountain of insight. Who knew that mages had kiting tools and are worthless against other casters......

[Seneca]

And mages still outnumber warlocks like 5 to 1 in high rating arena games, so I'd say they're doing perfectly fine in pvp, just not in the hands of low tier players in biased matchups.

http://www.arenamate.net/representat...hive/legion-s5
3v3, 2200+:
Warlock: 8.7%
Mage: 5.5%

https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/pvp...v3/2200-rating
3v3, 2200+:
Warlock: 9.8%
Mage: 6%


Mages outnumber warlocks like 5 to 1 in high rating arena games? You what mate?

More like, on the contrary, warlocks outnumber mages 1.6 to 1.

In other words, there are 60% more warlocks than mages in +2200 3v3 arena games.


Let's say it quite clearly:

The one and only reason to bring a mage is Polymorph. Accept this fact if you want to play a mage successfully.


Q: Why is Polymorph better than the other spammable hard ccs?

A (probably in order of importance):
1. Reliability. Shimmer (and to a way less extent, Blink) makes it hard (more like, next to impossible) to avoid a Polymorph by pillar hugging. Healers can't escape shimmered polymorphs.
2. DR category ("Incapacitate" for Polymorph). Arguably better than Fear and Cyclone category ("Disorient", which is the same for both ccs btw, so Fear and Cyclone don't really work together).
3. Duration. Cyclone lasts 6 seconds. Polymorph (and Fear) lasts 8 secs.
4. Range. Cylcone has only 20 yard (and is a talent, for what it matters). Polymorph (and Fear) has 30y range.
5. Dispel effects. Berserker Rage, Holy Ward, etc., may dispel/make you immune to Fear. The main counter to Polymorph, dispell/immunity wise, are shapeshifts.
6. Interrupt effects. Fire and Frost mages are definitely more careless about their arcane school being interrupted, compared to all 3 warlock specs and the two druid specs which can use Cyclone (balance, restoration). Fear and Cyclone belong to their main school of magics (their secondary ones include only a few damage spells mostly).

The only polymorph drawbacks are: 1) shapeshifts give immunity, 2) targets are healed, 3) 1 point of damage breaks it (point 2 and 3, in very high rated arena, are way less important than they appear, 1 too to a lesser extent).


To conclude, we can say that, if Polymorph would be given to another class/spec, that class/spec would be always or almost always better to have than a mage.

Blizzard could probably increase the damage done by mages by 30% and at the same time remove Polymorph and the end result would still probably be a substantial nerf to mages, in rated pvp contexts. Random battleground wise, it would be fun, surely.

[Deleted]

I also think it worth baring in mind, dps wise, that eyeliner doesn't make warlocks cool.

[Fayenoor]

Warlocks are supposed to be counter class for a mage. With the felpup up, they are pretty much magekillers.

So, you will rarely be able to beat a lock in 1v1 world PvP unless the lock is very bad or you significantly outgear it.

[Bugg]

Warlocks are supposed to be counter class for a mage.

Who are the counter for Warlocks?

[Celestraza]

Warlocks are supposed to be counter class for a mage. With the felpup up, they are pretty much magekillers.

So, you will rarely be able to beat a lock in 1v1 world PvP unless the lock is very bad or you significantly outgear it.

Hunters were traditionally the counter for mages and they still are.
Tbh right now everything counters mage 1vs1 because we lack sustain/self heals.

Honestly even elemental, shadow priest and boomies should be able to beat us one on one.

[Tokas]

Who are the counter for Warlocks?

used to be rogues, used...