I really hate Jaina...

[Mehrunes]

The Kirin Tor protected the Divine Bell from ANY interference. Jaina states she set traps to catch anyone from trying to mess with or steal the Divine Bell. The Kirin Tor were asked to help the Night Elves study and protect the incredibly magical artifact. Something that they do. Why is it odd that the Night Elves - who are only just now getting back into Arcane Magic would ask the Neutral faction who is incredibly skilled at dealing with such things to help them out?



She was protecting it from anything and anyone. She didn't expect that she needed to protect it from her own faction. A faction that tries to ensure that magical items of this magnitude don't fall into the wrong hands or are abused, like what happened with the Focusing Iris. Jaina was the perfect person to advocate for such a role in the world. She knew how terrible items like that could destroy entire cities. She was dedicated to trying to find peace between the factions again. She was a bit more wary certainly but she had calmed down.

How is what Jaina did in Darnassus any more supportive of the Alliance than what Rhonin did in Theramore? He posted Kirin Tor on the walls and came himself (just like Jaina did in Darn) to try and make sure the situation didn't turn violent. I don't believe they got involved in the actual fighting but they were there to make sure that no terrible magic was going to be used...which of course it was. There wasn't too much to do once they realized the Focusing Iris was involved.

I'll admit I don't recall the specific details of how the Kirin Tor supported Theramore past basically stationing themselves on the walls. It's been a while since I read Tides of War.

Please. The context of her speech is the Horde and them stealing the Bell. How do you think she knew it's the Horde that was helped by someone from Dalaran? There was no one else trying to enter Darnassus to get the Divine Bell. There's no one else who even knew about it. Even that aside, there could be a member of every faction on Azeroth trying to enter Darnassus. That'd make them enemies of Darnassus and Jaina would still be breaking neutrality by aiding Darnassus against them through hostile actions. And Kirin Tor has no authority whatsoever over those other factions to prevent them from doing anything.

[Ragnarocket]

Please. The context of her speech is the Horde and them stealing the Bell. How do you think she knew it's the Horde that was helped by someone from Dalaran? There was no one else trying to enter Darnassus to get the Divine Bell. There's no one else who even knew about it. Even that aside, there could be a member of every faction on Azeroth trying to enter Darnassus. That'd make them enemies of Darnassus and Jaina would still be breaking neutrality by aiding Darnassus against them through hostile actions. And Kirin Tor has no authority whatsoever over those other factions to prevent them from doing anything.

The Kirin Tor has always been a neutral faction that aides with magical issues, that’s been their thing for ages, even since the Seven Kingdoms. Both sides recognized their magical experience with something like the Nexus War.

We don’t really know what breaks neutrality in the eyes of the horde and alliance. Strengthening the magical wards and defenses of Darnassus isn’t an aggressive act against the Horde. You could argue that such a thing would have been done for Silvermoon or Thunder Bluff had the situation called for it.

Since we all love real world examples - let's take 3 countries:

Countries A and B are at war with each other while Country C is neutral. Country C is a scientific marvel, they have some of the best researchers in the world and everyone acknowledges it. In the middle of their constant war, Country A comes across some new mineral or something. They can tell that it has the potential for great destruction. Country B is also aware of this but doesn't have the access to the new material. Country A brings it back for research and asks Country C for assistance as they don't have the people needed to accurately examine this new material.

Upon getting there, Country C goes "Whoa, this is REALLY dangerous stuff. We're going to put this on lockdown until we have a better understanding of how to safely handle this. We don't want anyone to mess with this until we're done. So they lock it down and give access to a few select people. Countries A and C are working together on researching this material now. So now, we have someone from Country C with ties to Country B, he notices one day that there are some people from his home country with similar ties to Country B who have smuggled out the specimen and are taking it to Country B. He looks the other way.

When Country C finds out that their own people smuggled away their work and a potentially dangerous material to a group that has not asked for help in trying to understand it or safely use it. They see this as a problem. Country C is now ALSO upset with Country B and finds themselves in the position to now ally with Country A over this whole mess.

[h4rr0d]

3. 5.1 was fucked up situation, but they did decide to attack her when she tried to kick them out so it turned into a blood bath. but they did use her neutral city to steal from the alliance

Only after she declared herself neutral and then in the same patch broke that neutrality when she helped Alliance to secure the Divine Bell (originally I thought she actually put it there too, but apparently nelves found it?). Sunreavers did exactly what she did, but somehow when she does it, it's ok, but when someone else does it, she flips out and goes on killing spree. Honestly, I could never stomach that hypocrisy and don't think I actually finished that quest line on any alliance character.

[FelPlague]

Only after she declared herself neutral and then in the same patch broke that neutrality when she helped Alliance to secure the Divine Bell (originally I thought she actually put it there too, but apparently nelves found it?). Sunreavers did exactly what she did, but somehow when she does it, it's ok, but when someone else does it, she flips out and goes on killing spree. Honestly, I could never stomach that hypocrisy and don't think I actually finished that quest line on any alliance character.

she declared dalaran neutral.
then she, not dalaran, she helped the allaince
sunreavers then used a neutral city, not a horde member of the kirin tor, they used the neutral city.

SHE, JAINA worked for the Alliance
the Sunreavers used DALARAN a neutral city.
again
SHE helped the alliance
DALARAN was used by the horde.

Jaina does not act for Dalaran by helping the Alliance, she does not use dalaran to help the alliance with the bell, but then once the horde uses it, they break the neutrality.

[Verdugo]

she declared dalaran neutral.
then she, not dalaran, she helped the allaince
sunreavers then used a neutral city, not a horde member of the kirin tor, they used the neutral city.

SHE, JAINA worked for the Alliance
the Sunreavers used DALARAN a neutral city.
again
SHE helped the alliance
DALARAN was used by the horde.

Jaina does not act for Dalaran by helping the Alliance, she does not use dalaran to help the alliance with the bell, but then once the horde uses it, they break the neutrality.

She literaly was a representative of neutral organisation and helped one side. If Dalaran didnt kick her for that immediatly then they officialy broke neutrality.

[FelPlague]

She literaly was a representative of neutral organisation and helped one side. If Dalaran didnt kick her for that immediatly then they officialy broke neutrality.

she acted on her own accord, not on the accord of dalaran.
are you saying that if a US Senate goes on vacation to lets say china and acts like abit of a dick, that is an act of aggression from the US?

i find it interesting people are saying that acting on the masses about what one person did is wrong and that is why the blood elves are innocent
but then when it comes to jaina and dalaran, one person helps the alliance and all of a sudden all of dalaran is alliance.


Jaina uses NO neutral assets to help the alliance
The sunreavers used the NEUTRAL city to help the horde.

[Verdugo]

Jaina uses NO neutral assets to help the alliance
The sunreavers used the NEUTRAL city to help the horde.

SHE is the Dalaran asset, she was its goddamn leader you excuse her that she acted on her own and yet you post this crap in another thread.

And actuallty yes, you lot elected trump (Really hillary, but you know electoral college)
so you lot have to live with the fact that he now represents your people.

[Mehrunes]

she declared dalaran neutral.
then she, not dalaran, she helped the allaince
sunreavers then used a neutral city, not a horde member of the kirin tor, they used the neutral city.

SHE, JAINA worked for the Alliance
the Sunreavers used DALARAN a neutral city.
again
SHE helped the alliance
DALARAN was used by the horde.

Jaina does not act for Dalaran by helping the Alliance, she does not use dalaran to help the alliance with the bell, but then once the horde uses it, they break the neutrality.

She, the leader of the Council of Six of the Kirin Tor, is Dalaran asset. Do go on with your mental gymnastics. The leaders of the Council of Six most certainly does act for Dalaran and in its nae (even more so given the fact that the position of the leader is representation to other countries). She uses Dalaran manpower to help with the Bell.

Also, you're conflating two different things, because you have no clue whatsoever about the topic as per always. The problem with Surneavers and neutrality isn't that the Horde used Dalaran. That'd be Horde infringing on its its sovereignty which has nothing to with breaking neutrality. The problem with Sunreavers is that one of them helped the Horde. Because it's the Surneavers that are subject to Dalaran's neutrality, not the Horde that isn't a member of Dalaran.

she acted on her own accord, not on the accord of dalaran.
are you saying that if a US Senate goes on vacation to lets say china and acts like abit of a dick, that is an act of aggression from the US?

Yeah, because helping one party to war in a military action against the other is totally the same thing as being a bit of a dick. Totes.

i find it interesting people are saying that acting on the masses about what one person did is wrong and that is why the blood elves are innocent
but then when it comes to jaina and dalaran, one person helps the alliance and all of a sudden all of dalaran is alliance.

What is actually interesting here is you thinking your inanely false equivalence is in any way an actual argument.

Jaina uses NO neutral assets to help the alliance
The sunreavers used the NEUTRAL city to help the horde.

Manpower is an asset, so congrats on establishing your premise to be terrible right off the bat.

SHE is the Dalaran asset, she was its goddamn leader you excuse her that she acted on her own and yet you post this crap in another thread.

#AllianceConsistency

The Kirin Tor has always been a neutral faction that aides with magical issues, that’s been their thing for ages, even since the Seven Kingdoms. Both sides recognized their magical experience with something like the Nexus War.

Except for all of the times it was an Alliance member. And Nexus War has nothing to do with Alliance-Horde relations. And there was no ground to recognize their magical anything because Dalaran wasn't chosen by the world to fight Malygos the Nexus war because of them being super awesome at magic, they were in the war because Malygos outright attacked them.

We don’t really know what breaks neutrality in the eyes of the horde and alliance. Strengthening the magical wards and defenses of Darnassus isn’t an aggressive act against the Horde. You could argue that such a thing would have been done for Silvermoon or Thunder Bluff had the situation called for it.

But that's what the Kirin Tor did at Theramore. In Jaina's own words that was against their neutrality. And Jaina didn't just put magical wards and defenses, she personally trapped Horde soldiers trying to infiltrate the city. That's hostile action against members of the Horde. And if such a thing would have been done for Silvermoon it'd still be a breach of neutrality.

Since we all love real world examples - let's take 3 countries:

Countries A and B are at war with each other while Country C is neutral. Country C is a scientific marvel, they have some of the best researchers in the world and everyone acknowledges it. In the middle of their constant war, Country A comes across some new mineral or something. They can tell that it has the potential for great destruction. Country B is also aware of this but doesn't have the access to the new material. Country A brings it back for research and asks Country C for assistance as they don't have the people needed to accurately examine this new material.

Upon getting there, Country C goes "Whoa, this is REALLY dangerous stuff. We're going to put this on lockdown until we have a better understanding of how to safely handle this. We don't want anyone to mess with this until we're done. So they lock it down and give access to a few select people. Countries A and C are working together on researching this material now. So now, we have someone from Country C with ties to Country B, he notices one day that there are some people from his home country with similar ties to Country B who have smuggled out the specimen and are taking it to Country B. He looks the other way.

When Country C finds out that their own people smuggled away their work and a potentially dangerous material to a group that has not asked for help in trying to understand it or safely use it. They see this as a problem. Country C is now ALSO upset with Country B and finds themselves in the position to now ally with Country A over this whole mess.

And what's missing from your comparison is the representatives of C helping A laying down bear traps or land mines (depending on what Jaina's traps did) with the intent of capturing/killing soldiers from B trying to enter A's capital. Before the new mineral gets stolen by B and someone from C and before the leader of B-linked C-sians looking the other way. Given the offensive nature of said involvement in conflict between A and B, the representative of C responsible for it would break C's neutrality.

[FelPlague]

SHE is the Dalaran asset, she was its goddamn leader you excuse her that she acted on her own and yet you post this crap in another thread.

There is a difference between representing.
and BEING
Jaina can do her own thing, Trump eating a mcdonalds cheeseburger does not make it the official food for the american people. Well yes Jaina is the leader, and can represent dalaran, as long as she does not use dalaran for it, its still it...

[mickybrighteyes]

she acted on her own accord, not on the accord of dalaran.
are you saying that if a US Senate goes on vacation to lets say china and acts like abit of a dick, that is an act of aggression from the US?

i find it interesting people are saying that acting on the masses about what one person did is wrong and that is why the blood elves are innocent
but then when it comes to jaina and dalaran, one person helps the alliance and all of a sudden all of dalaran is alliance.


Jaina uses NO neutral assets to help the alliance
The sunreavers used the NEUTRAL city to help the horde.

interesting argument... but your forgetting that teh entire Sunreaver organization wasn't in on the ordeal. Much teh same way all of Dalaran wasn't in on murdering sunreaver resistance.

[FelPlague]

interesting argument... but your forgetting that teh entire Sunreaver organization wasn't in on the ordeal. Much teh same way all of Dalaran wasn't in on murdering sunreaver resistance.

Correct. But they used the neutral city to help the horde. And seemed to knew about it. Even if only 1 did it. Many more knee about it. And also she didn't know how many did. If one did. Who says many others didn't do many other things?

[Mehrunes]

Correct. But they used the neutral city to help the horde. And seemed to knew about it. Even if only 1 did it. Many more knee about it. And also she didn't know how many did. If one did. Who says many others didn't do many other things?

Apparently Aethas is many people at once. Who knew?

[mickybrighteyes]

Correct. But they used the neutral city to help the horde. And seemed to knew about it. Even if only 1 did it. Many more knee about it. And also she didn't know how many did. If one did. Who says many others didn't do many other things?

Still not a reason to start painting the town red... with the blood and scattered armor of people you distrust.

[FelPlague]

Still not a reason to start painting the town red... with the blood and scattered armor of people you distrust.

To be fair, jaina was removing the sunreavers, only attacking those who attacked her.
but the silver covernant did the much worse.

[mickybrighteyes]

To be fair, jaina was removing the sunreavers, only attacking those who attacked her.
but the silver covernant did the much worse.

those elementals she conjured and her blizzard didn't seemed restrained to this target restriction

[FelPlague]

those elementals she conjured and her blizzard didn't seemed restrained to this target restriction

yes they did.
her elementles and blizzards only attacked those who drew arms.
there is a bug because of her Ai. when she is walking around and fleeing civilians approach she will teleport them away, but it has a cooldown, so if lets say 7 approach her, she will then get aggrod by them and one by one teleport them away.
but if she dpses one, and unluckly teleports all the rest, she may acidently kill one, but that is not intended and simply an AI bug from bad luck and how the aggro system in wow works.
but no she walks around and any civilians that approach her are teleported out.

the elementals were to defend her, from those that wish to attack her as some did try.
literally she teleports into dalaran and allready sunreavers are ready to attack her as she calls for aethis.

[mickybrighteyes]

there is a bug because of her Ai.

amusing how this is an excuse. She running around hurling area of effect spells somehow ONLY aiming at one group she can't for sure know is responsible... and she's shooting to kill before getting any answers... but we have people her saying her violent actions seen during the events are bugs or not actually what is seen.

[FelPlague]

amusing how this is an excuse. She running around hurling area of effect spells somehow ONLY aiming at one group she can't for sure know is responsible... and she's shooting to kill before getting any answers... but we have people her saying her violent actions seen during the events are bugs or not actually what is seen.

she is not hurling aoe spells until she has the AI bug.
also she never kills anyone normally.
are you serious that "in this very specific Ai scenario she might possibly kill a mob, therefore she is killing them all"

her Ai, and her INTENDED DESIGN is for her to walk around, and teleport anyone who approaches her to the violet hold, and attack those who attack her.
but if too many approach her she will start attacking them, but will quickly teleport them away beause of the teleports cooldown.

[Roamingstorm]

Personally I enjoy Jaina. Her character has evolved with an interesting story, I just think it sucks that honestly players in the game didn't get the extent of Theramore if they didn't read the book and just how it affected her. As for her being level headed, to be fair she nearly caused a Tsunami onto Orgrimmar if it wasn't for Kalecgos talking her down. (Thrall was there, but honestly was more salt in the wound than helped.) Also we can't forget least in Alpha she goes to help with the fires in Stormwind over stopping the Horde, seems like she still has priorities of doing good.

Honestly I'd take her character over Sylvanas, but that's mainly due to the fact Sylvanas character development has been so topsy turvy with not much development, yet for some reason she gets constant spotlight.

[Verdugo]

her Ai, and her INTENDED DESIGN is for her to walk around, and teleport anyone who approaches her to the violet hold, and attack those who attack her.
but if too many approach her she will start attacking them, but will quickly teleport them away beause of the teleports cooldown.

And I am sure you have proof of such claim.