[8.0] Battle of Azeroth Arms discussion thread

[Quaade]

It sounds good in theory, in practicality however it's bad. The minigame you speak of will cost you 60 Rage for example.

While numbers can be tweaked I'll remind you that it took four expansions and two patches before Arms numbers were tweaked to a degree where it became viable. Numbers are a deal of the class fantasy and while it might technically be better than Legion, the reality is that it feels like a wet noodle and fails to fulfill the class fantasy of the consumate weapon master.

And our Mastery only affects two abilities. Both expensive and one conditional. The datamimed version it was an extra hit and five Rage was so much better and more fitting.

Also the "Coming Soon" talent turned out to be Impending Victory. Which I"m so, so about, because a weapon conditional would be bad "So for PvP I'll mog a mace and for PvE an axe/polearm."

This would put a financial burden on Arms that no other spec has and imagine if it was tied to the original weapon type.

[Caargon]

We might be more valuable during progress, however progress ends at some point, after which other classes are better to bring objectively. Thankfully my guild is free from such dickery. However raidstacking is real.

So you're gonna sit there and tell me that raids class-stack on farm content for anything other than gimmick videos and fuckarounditis? If it were so, it'd be nothing but aff locks all the way down.

Feel free to call my wish to be viable all the time ego.

Good thing we are viable all the time. Unless your idea of viable is "top 3 on every fight, any mechanics, period." Although the word for that I think would be overpowered. Or affliction warlock. Same thing really.

[Quaade]

All viewable evidence points to this being erroneus. All classes have a DPS benchmark should be able to reach with average skill.

The nerf to the hat and ring shows this, as they made Arms dps too high.

Fury has less dependant on Execute and it shows on the meters as their pre Execute total damage is higher.

Right now my Arms DPS follows a predictable pattern. On new content it's relatively high, since I have time to gear up in M+, with it spiking to the top during the Execute phase. Then it grows gradually less as others get better gear and the phase becomes shorter.

What other classes can do it's irrelevant to me, all I focus on is my own performance. Futhermore this mechanic is disastrous in PvP. We might be able to spike tagets down sub 20% and this means nothing if they are on 30 and we're dead since their average DPS is higher to make up for this disparity

[Recom]

Quaade, your posts are really hard to read because you are mixing different things to try and prove your point which is confusing.

Why is BfA arms so bad besides number ? You say you are rage starved, how badly ? What's the downtime where you don't press any buttons ?

Mastery only affecting 2 abilities is a valid point and a passive dot isn't really engaging, I hope they change it.

Also you can't talk about tuning in a vacuum, what others can do IS very important.

[Quaade]

Downtime is the time between being in combat. Rage starved is a function of the time it takes between abilities being used.

To use your definetions though;, My downtime is about four second, neither Protection nor Fury has that, often I have to wait to use MS when the CD is gone.
I'm forced to level as Prot since Arms is subpar.

For an instance I started as Arms, could easily tell I underperformed due to my downtime and less than impressive damage, so I went Fury and all my problems were gone.

There are no addons on the PTR other than those people have developed specifically for it. Yet I have played a warrior for so long I can tell instictively, I have the experience and the curiosity to pay attention to the world around me.

Other classes and their specs do the things Arms should do with far less problems. Protection even outclasses Arms in just about anything. I kill mobs faster, my rage generation is smoother and my survival is many times that of Arms. As Prot I can pull for mobs and kill them, as Arms I have trouble if I pull just two.

As for trouble following my posts, yes, I think baseline opposite to what other people think. Where they only see the next step, and thus are phenomenal at details, I see the entire picture. I'm bad at details and make up for it by seeing the logical conclusion, often served with hyperbole as exageration makes it easier to understand.3

[Deleted]

Downtime is the time between being in combat. Rage starved is a function of the time it takes between abilities being used.

In this context downtime refers to the time in combat in which you don't use any abilities, so rage starvagation has a lot to do with it.

[Quaade]

Gameplay wise being les reliant on a random proc is good. Now Blizzard needs to reduce our need for the crutch that's execute, since it really harms us in the long run.

Mechanics wise however, Legion sees us in a far better spot since we're at least viable. And have a somewhat smooth Rage generation.

[Caargon]

Gameplay wise being les reliant on a random proc is good. Now Blizzard needs to reduce our need for the crutch that's execute, since it really harms us in the long run.

It really doesn't. But exactly what do you imagine execute should be relative to the rest of the kit?

[Quaade]

Execute is a crutch. We're benchmarked to do X amount of damage in Y time. In the Execute phase we deal more damage, before that we deal less damage in order for out total to be X; else we would be grossly OP.

Other classes have the same benchmark and lacks an Execute mechanic so their average DPS is higher for them in order to reach X.

The kicker is that the Execute phase is shortened as people get better gear. This means that the window of opportunity for using Execute gets smaller ad well

If the Execute phase is, say, 20 sec shorter, we lose 20 sec of high dps. Other classes have high average DPS while ours spike. This means they lose less DPS relatively to us.

And what I want to see is for Execute to do less damage and Slam and MS to do more. This way our average DPS is higher and we have less realiance on the Execute phase to spike our DPS.

Things die at the same rate anyway. If a fight is set to take five minutes, it will take five minutes regardless of how our damage is distributed. Execute does nothing to change this.

[Caargon]

So...let me get this straight. you want to eliminate the classes “moment of glory” and shift that damage to the filler attack, taking away from our niche as the guy who absolutely ends the fight and turning us into frost DKs or enhance shamans, all so you can have an easier time padding the meter on farm content.

[Quaade]

Our niche and moment of glory hurts in the long run.

While the Execute number are nice and big, it takes longer for us alone to reach that moment.

Also our moment of glory and niche gets smaller the better gear other have. Arms is the only spec which have this mechanic.

Right now I've gone from top three damage to 11 or so before Execute. Execute usually sees me rise to about 7th.

This is a ton of DPS I've "lost" relatively to others. So yeah, I've like to give up my niche in favour of constant viability.

This has large ramifications on other aspects of gameplay. Take PvP. Anyone getting trained by a warrior is dead when they reach 20%.

This have no bearing if we're at zero and they at 30 due their total damage being more prefictable.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, if a fight is set to take five minutes based on the benchmarks it will take five minutes with appropriate gear.

Arms relative low damage +20% means the boss will do their damaging more times while they are +20%.

This niche idea presumes the designers are stupid. Which is a wrong place to start as every unintended mechanic eventually gets fixed.

- - - Updated - - -

Arms is for the same reason really bad at soloing anyone who can heal

[Recom]

Who gives a shit about farm really ? What matters is progression and during progression the exec phase is usually long.

If they lower exec damage we will fall in an awkward place where it might not be worth using over other spells and that's a terrible design.

Every class/spec has upsides and downsides, warrior has ALWAYS been about execute, honestly if you really hate it because it "hurts the dps during farm" (LUL) then you should probably look at another class since that niche isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Quaade]

If Execute is lowered in vacuum then yes our damage would.

I'm asking for Execute to be lowered and MS/Slam to be increased so we still hit X.

And to the person said progression is all that matter, that about the dumbest WoW related thing I've ever heard.

My guild progress for about a month in total, then we farm untill the next content comes out (too few people to do Mythic reliably).

What you're telling me is that I should accept being subpar since I'm awesome about one month at a time.

Please tell that to other classes and specs and hear the outcry.

[Caargon]

If Execute is lowered in vacuum then yes our damage would.

I'm asking for Execute to be lowered and MS/Slam to be increased so we still hit X.

And to the person said progression is all that matter, that about the dumbest WoW related thing I've ever heard.

My guild progress for about a month in total, then we farm untill the next content comes out (too few people to do Mythic reliably).

What you're telling me is that I should accept being subpar since I'm awesome about one month at a time.

Please tell that to other classes and specs and hear the outcry.

Sounds like you really want to play a frost dk.

[Recom]

If Execute is lowered in vacuum then yes our damage would.

I'm asking for Execute to be lowered and MS/Slam to be increased so we still hit X.

And to the person said progression is all that matter, that about the dumbest WoW related thing I've ever heard.

My guild progress for about a month in total, then we farm untill the next content comes out (too few people to do Mythic reliably).

What you're telling me is that I should accept being subpar since I'm awesome about one month at a time.

Please tell that to other classes and specs and hear the outcry.

I obviously meant shifting some of the power of Exec to other abilities therefore why I said there is a risk of it falling out of the priority list.

There are ALWAYS classes/specs that shine more during certain aspect of a fight, single target, aoe, burst, cleave, switch, first 20%, last 20%, progress or farm and asking for a complete change like this seems a little over kill.

[Quaade]

No, I want to play a warrior.

And noone I've seen takes those trash above 80% talents, they are the same as Execute, getting worse with time.

I've also yet to see anything other than BM in a raid outside LFR.

People world rather have constant viability rather than situational.

[Recom]

No, I want to play a warrior.

And noone I've seen takes those trash above 80% talents, they are the same as Execute, getting worse with time.

I've also yet to see anything other than BM in a raid outside LFR.

People world rather have constant viability rather than situational.

Of course they would and when people have the tools to do everything fine then there is no difference in classes/specs except for looks.

The problem with warrior has rarely been about DPS or execute (which, again, IS very valuable in progression) but utility and survivability spells and they are shifting things on that front too which might or might not help.

[Deleted]

Just to mention something non theorycrafting. Perhaps they should name "Arms" into "Shoulder".
With the ammount of overpowering you will do the shoulder bash animation looks kind of silly.

[volgon]

Just to mention something non theorycrafting. Perhaps they should name "Arms" into "Shoulder".
With the ammount of overpowering you will do the shoulder bash animation looks kind of silly.

I like the Overpower animation well enough, but I am disappointed that the awesome jumping swing on CS will only be seen once every 45 seconds. I think now would be the perfect time to switch the MS animation (which doesn't fit at all, I hate that it's a 1H attack) for the current CS one.

[Deleted]

I like the Overpower animation well enough, but I am disappointed that the awesome jumping swing on CS will only be seen once every 45 seconds. I think now would be the perfect time to switch the MS animation (which doesn't fit at all, I hate that it's a 1H attack) for the current CS one.

I'd like it more , if it didn't share the animation with pummel.