Nationalism: Is it ok?

[Endus]

Just to make sure I'm understanding you, are you saying or implying that Socialist states do not seize ownership of production? It sounds that's what you are saying. That all private ownership remained private even after Government established Socialist socioeconomic & political changes.

By definition, that would seem to be contradictory, so I guess I'm not understanding what point you are defending.

I'm saying the use of "seize" is deliberately inflammatory and misleading.

It implies that the means of production are naturally owned by private persons, and the only way for a group to attain control of them is through taking without compensation. This is wrong on multiple counts;

1> Private ownership is not the default setting for society. And such involves "seizure" by those private individuals as much as socialism involves "seizure" by the group.

2> There's nothing about socialist theory that requires that ownership be taken away without compensation, even if we're talking about a shift. Nationalising a utility generally involves the State buying that utility.

3> That private property and ownership of the means of production are two separate things. This is why phrases like "private ownership" are problematic; socialism isn't about the State seizing your house. It may be a mouthful to keep saying "private ownership of the means of production", but that's what we're talking about, not all private ownership.

4> The State isn't necessarily involved other than as a management system, as it is in capitalist nations. "Socialism" entails concepts like employee ownership and other forms of group ownership other than State ownership.

Does this mean seizing means of production CAN'T happen? Of course not. But it happens in pure capitalist systems, too. What do you think a "hostile takeover" is?

[Maybach]

Why cant people just be proud of their country without some asshat over examining what is a relatively simple point then trying to convince everyone we are either fascists or should be ashamed of things we had no hand in centuries before

Jeez.......

I like my country, get over it

[Freighter]

It's funny to see how bent out of shape people get when someone doesn't like socialism and how they basically lose their minds trying to defend socialism.

[Cizr]

Nothing wrong with nationalism. Its not about hating other countries at all.

[Deleted]

Nothing wrong with nationalism. Its not about hating other countries at all.

In practice it generally is. "Nationalists" generally have zero interest in celebrating their culture. Have a conversation with a Trump supporter-they generally are very ignorant of their own history and culture pre-Reagan. It is really just about hating foreigners for most.

One might argue that these are simply xenophobes rather than nationalists. The problem is that if you used the term correctly there would be very few nationalists anywhere.

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It's funny to see how bent out of shape people get when someone doesn't like socialism and how they basically lose their minds trying to defend socialism.

Some hypocrisy here. Observe the clusterfuck of whining every time someone points out that global capitalism imploded ten years ago, which is merely historical fact.

[GennGreymane]

There is nationalism that is productive aas in people who actually want to contribute for a greater purpose

Then there is well.... I accuse certain posters of. They tend to be fairly lazy and never contribute or really amount to much. They use nationalism to feel superior to others for something they never actually created. Its kind of sad really. These people are similar to the pledge is all that matters patriots. Easiest way to show patriotism, but with none of the work.

[dark666105]

Nothing wrong with nationalism. Its not about hating other countries at all.

seems a lot of people are conflating nationalism with ethnonationalism and jingoism, where a lot of us think of it more along the lines of civic nationalism.

nationalism in and of itself is not bad. It is the type of nationalism however that determines if it is constructive or deconstructive.

Maybe we shouldn't use the word nationalism when we only mean one type of it? eh? sound good? (not directed at you but the thread as a whole)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_nationalism

for reference

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingoism

[HumbleDuck]

No, it's not. And the fact that we have to explain this every other month is not ok either.

[dark666105]

No, it's not. And the fact that we have to explain this every other month is not ok either.

Which type of nationalism are you saying is not ok?

[Mistame]

Can't be bothered with a couple dozen pages of catch-up, but...

When a religion is predominantly practiced by non-white people the discrimination against it almost certainly has a racial element.

Even making the argument that the majority of members of a given religion belong to a specific culture still doesn't make it a "racial" thing. You can argue that someone has something against those of Middle-Eastern descent, etc, but calling an objection to a particular religion "racist" is inherently fallacious. Racism is the belief that a particular group of people is inferior/superior based on the color of their skin. Therefore, if the animosity is derived from anything other than skin color, whether it be religion or even culture, it's literally not "racism".

It's racist. Again you don't get to define racism because you are racist. If we let bad people define the words to describe them they would take advantage of it wouldn't they.

There is nothing "racist" about not finding members of a specific race attractive. It's quite literally the equivalent of calling a straight guy a "homophobe" because he's not attracted to gay men. As far as definitions go, you don't need to "let" anyone define it, as it's already defined. You're simply using it wrong.

[Aphrel]

I feel nationalism is for lazy ppl who cant make up their own mind of what their ideological preferences are, so they just pick whatever is closest at hand and dont spend anymore time thinking about it.

[united]

Nothing wrong with nationalism. Its not about hating other countries at all.

awww, a naive person!

[dark666105]

awww, a naive person!

What? There isn't if you are talking things like civic nationalism. Again as I stated before, people need to state what type of nationalism. Asking if nationalism is ok and expecting a yes or a no is like asking if political systems are ok without specifying which one.

[GennGreymane]

This would be true. However, if you keep upholding the values and traditions of your ancestors like they did, its something different than having ancestors that had slaves, and you not having slaves yourself.

which is true, however they tend to keep the logic pretty similar. They will take the credit, but non of the faults. My view is you are unrelated to these people. You should work to making something better, rather than sit on your ass and think you are great.

I mean I commented again recently about how its like the US pledge. People all crazy for it, but its really the laziest form of patriotism.

[dark666105]

which is true, however they tend to keep the logic pretty similar. They will take the credit, but non of the faults. My view is you are unrelated to these people. You should work to making something better, rather than sit on your ass and think you are great.

I mean I commented again recently about how its like the US pledge. People all crazy for it, but its really the laziest form of patriotism.

Well I think the question arises if it is people wanting to take credit for ancestors or if it is people feeling pride in contributing and being a part of the system of their country. Not really getting the logic behind the former but can totally get people doing the later.

[GennGreymane]

Well I think the question arises if it is people wanting to take credit for ancestors or if it is people feeling pride in contributing and being a part of the system of their country. Not really getting the logic behind the former but can totally get people doing the later.

I dont get that logic either, but many posters here are nationalistic in the lazy way. They do not really contribute, nor do they want to move their countries forward for the better, but will feel superior over others and express such sentiment.

[united]

The type of nationalism I live with in my country is not about skin color or even religion. We have many different ethnic identities, all of them having the same rights as the majority.

The bullshit some people here are spouting wants to paint all forms of nationalism under one banner, which is not true at all.

The goal of nationalism is that the nation, ie a linguistic, cultural and historical entity, should constitute an independent state. In the absence of an already established nation state, this can be about collecting a nation that is divided by political boundaries or demanding national liberation from a stranger's regime.

Take the Baltic states, or even my country, That where vassals to foreign invaders or ideologies.

hahaha stop.

every single baltic country is free right now. So please try to think of another excuse besides "well nationalism is about keeping our country free"

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What? There isn't if you are talking things like civic nationalism. Again as I stated before, people need to state what type of nationalism. Asking if nationalism is ok and expecting a yes or a no is like asking if political systems are ok without specifying which one.

all nationalism is racist.

you're welcome

[GennGreymane]

The bolded part is also just a lazy dismissive remark. Nationalism in the today's Scandinavian state's are actually helping people. They have gathered the people in those nations, made the cohesion between people even better, allowing some of the best countries to live in evolve. And those countries are taking in more desperate people per capita than most other nations. which is sadly at this rate, thinning out the glue that keep's such a society running.

I work, live, support and pay taxes to my nation, do you want me to slit my throat and let the soil drink all my blood as well before I am considered not "lazy" in your eyes?

I am referring to those who see you helping people, and say my fellow scandinavians are great, thus I am great and then dont do what you do.

Also dont kill yourself over me mr crazy. Im a wonderful man, but not worth your attention. I am also straight.

[Fencers]

No. It's dumb.

[Doctor Amadeus]

The type of nationalism I live with in my country is not about skin color or even religion. We have many different ethnic identities, all of them having the same rights as the majority.

The bullshit some people here are spouting wants to paint all forms of nationalism under one banner, which is not true at all.

The goal of nationalism is that the nation, ie a linguistic, cultural and historical entity, should constitute an independent state. In the absence of an already established nation state, this can be about collecting a nation that is divided by political boundaries or demanding national liberation from a stranger's regime.

Take the Baltic states, or even my country, That where vassals to foreign invaders or ideologies.

Alright seriously why?

Why do you care so much about things that whether they come one way or another change is coming. You don’t do things today your country men did 200 years ago let alone a 1000. And just as much as you might object to a homogeneous global statehood. I’m sure tribes even amongst Nordic country felt the same way.

So why try to fight so hard to lay claim to a history that is as far removed from you as you are it?

More importantly because as you say it’s about values then why not be proud of that vs a thing?


I do get why you might feel a certain way, but nationalism seeks to maintain borders not on land but in people’s minds.

200 - 1000 years from now people won’t look like me or you. Some may be horrifying some could be marvelous, but they won’t be the same.

I care more about who they are on the inside as humans rather than the flag they carry or what they look like. If you do I get it but it’s a losing battle.

I care about my community and my neighbors and traditions and values, but non of that’s tied to skin or race. You don’t have to give up pride in the things you love and care about. You just have to decide which lines you want to draw in the sand as a nationalist and discard everyone who isn’t in your borders.

Good luck with that. Because Native Americans, Africans and Asians see how well that worked for them. But hey you can always have Trump and Trumpsters.