[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Elegiac]

i voted to leave primarily as a protest vote against david cameron.

Which makes you extraordinarily irresponsible and is in no way a redeeming action.

[Demolitia]

i voted to leave primarily as a protest vote against david cameron. i'm a socialist. also the referendum was about as democratic as it could possibly be. it was a referendum: in or out. it wasn't FPTP (admittedly shit) or anything like that. it asked us, stay in or leave the eu. 52% of people voted to leave, an overwhelming majority. this majority was further cemented in the 2017 GE when 85% of voters voted for parties supporting the referendum result.

that aside, my plan is to leave the UK for about 15-20 years and return after the looming economic troubles and societal problems are dealt with.

How very clever, and brave of you. A "screw you guys" vote, and then you go live abroad so you do not have to live with the consequences of it.
I hope double taxation will be reinstated and come back to haunt you.

[Floopa]

How very clever, and brave of you.

i think leave voters should be knighted, leave voters saved the country from tyranny of the eu

[Dhrizzle]

i voted to leave primarily as a protest vote against david cameron. i'm a socialist.

Your vote against Cameron was a vote for Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage who are, if anything, worse than Cameron. And seriously, do you expect people to believe that a socialist would vote to destabilise our economy and give the Conservatives an opportunity to privatise what we have left of our public services. I'm not sure it's the socialist dream to have US companies buy up parts of our NHS.

also the referendum was about as democratic as it could possibly be. it was a referendum: in or out. it wasn't FPTP (admittedly shit) or anything like that. it asked us, stay in or leave the eu. 52% of people voted to leave, an overwhelming majority. this majority was further cemented in the 2017 GE when 85% of voters voted for parties supporting the referendum result.

The cornerstone of a democracy is having an informed populace voting on the issues. The lies and fearmongering (admittedly on both sides) was not the way to create an informed electorate. We don't even know what we voted for yet, no-one actually said what Brexit would entail and we still don't even know what our political leaders hope to get out of Brexit. Also a healthy democratic process would not put the matter to a simple majority. When it will cause such economic disruption and strip people of rights the matter should have required at least a 2/3 majority or 50% of all eligible voters (not just those who turned out.)

Finally you need to drop your willful ignorance of how UK parliamentary democracy works. Besides the fact that both main parties have strong contingents who are against Brexit, or at least in favour of a soft or Brexit-in-name-only Brexit, people vote in GEs for a variety of reasons. What it did show is a majority clearly do not feel happy with the current government handling negotiations (the election was called as May wanted a stronger mandate for her negotiations) but thanks to thoroughly undemocratic flaws in FPTP we are being lead by a government that the majority voted against.

that aside, my plan is to leave the UK for about 15-20 years and return after the looming economic troubles and societal problems are dealt with.

When you say your are a socialist, what do you think that word means? Walking away from the mess you helped make, waiting for others to sort it out then coming back when you think you could profit is a bit of a David Cameron move.

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i think leave voters should be knighted, leave voters saved the country from tyranny of the eu

Only to deliver us into the tyranny of the Tories, and as a person who has largely socialist ideals I put more faith in the wankers in Brussels than I do in the wankers in Westminster.

[Slant]

it's not xenophobic to want proper immigration controls lol. immigration is a net benefit to the UK, i accept that. it could be a bigger net benefit though, and people who come here should integrate with our values better. this applies to everyone btw.

i would say there was also a fear of an empowered europe if we voted to remain... if one of the main contributors to a union cannot leave then democracy is a complete farce and isn't actually being applied. we voted to leave, it's our democratic right to take that decision. having people scream "RACIST, BIGOT" because people value their right to vote, rights people fought and died for, is quite frankly disgusting.

You've always had immigration control. That the UK doesn't exercise it properly doesn't mean you don't have it. See, the EU doesn't actually regulate immigration. What you're thinking about is immigration of EU citizens. I'm sorry that you feel the way you do, but the rest of the EU is quite happy with not considering other EU citizens "immigrants". Your way of thinking is so pre-21st century, it's sad.

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It's not bullshit though is it. You can disagree about its level of importance all you like but its just a simple fact that to be a member of the EU you have to cede aspects of national sovereignty.

Being a member of the EU is all about being a team player. That's the whole point of the EU. Having the EU manage stuff EU wide is the whole purpose of the union at this point. You still not getting it, are you. Nobody forces the UK to cede anything. And since the UK now decided it doesn't want to be a team player anymore, they're free to fuck off to the stands and watch from the outside. No problem. Just don't whinge about it while you're quitting.

[Breccia]

You know, the pound has been pretty steady against the euro for the last few months. I guess reality has set in for everyone involved -- the pound took a BEATING closer to the vote itself.

[Dhrizzle]

Being a member of the EU is all about being a team player. That's the whole point of the EU. Having the EU manage stuff EU wide is the whole purpose of the union at this point. You still not getting it, are you. Nobody forces the UK to cede anything. And since the UK now decided it doesn't want to be a team player anymore, they're free to fuck off to the stands and watch from the outside. No problem. Just don't whinge about it while you're quitting.

[Demolitia]

i think leave voters should be knighted, leave voters saved the country from tyranny of the eu

Tyranny ? You do realise you'd have to kneel in front of a monarch to receive said knighthood?

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it's not xenophobic to want proper immigration controls lol. immigration is a net benefit to the UK, i accept that. it could be a bigger net benefit though, and people who come here should integrate with our values better. this applies to everyone btw.

i would say there was also a fear of an empowered europe if we voted to remain... if one of the main contributors to a union cannot leave then democracy is a complete farce and isn't actually being applied. we voted to leave, it's our democratic right to take that decision. having people scream "RACIST, BIGOT" because people value their right to vote, rights people fought and died for, is quite frankly disgusting.

"I'm not racist. I know we need immigration and immigrants are a great benefit to our country. It would be better if they were more like us, and they make me uncomfortable because they speak funny and their cooking smells" = xenophobic

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That is the central failing of many right-wingers (This pains me to say as a conservative) in general, and in particular of leavers - That 'Trade', 'Economical activity', 'Markets' exists naturally, and regulation is merely an impediment, This moron actually thinks that the EU is not the reason for open trade, but rather an unnecessary impediment, or that politics can be separated from the economy, well it's moronic.

I tend to lean on the right side myself. I think there are plenty of good reasons to vote for either camp. You can't have sustainable social protection and care if your economy is not dynamic, but having thriving businesses when most of your population has no safety net and wonders how to pay their medical bill is unacceptable.
I don't care which camp people vote for as long as they are a bit moderate in their approach and recognize the benefits of both world.

Now to move the focus to the EU, wealthy countries pay more but benefit more from the free market, the poorer get help to develop infrastructure and their economy. There might be a time when some awesome magic mineral is found only in Eastern Europe and the table will turn.
Europe is also about this. It's not perfect, some countries are struggling and don't get much benefit at the moment but it's a big, heavy construct that needs time and political goodwill to change.
The UK's decision comes across as selfish and childish, but we'll all move on.

[Kallisto]

Watch all the Brexiters start crying when the Tories proceed to dismantle the NHS.

"But but, muh Farage promised us!"

The the dumbfucks who voted brexit should be locked in a room and have on repeat Farage, Nuttal and the like calling for the UK to have a US style health system where if you're poor then fuck you and die quietly while us rich get all the healthcare.

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What remoaners? Most of the people here are the 'get on with it' crowd, not remoaners.

Remoaners = Brexit far right nutters (I'm seriously not conviced Floopa is leftist, they wouldn't have voted for Brexit if they really were since it would just put too much power into Tory hands) to attack those who know Brexit is the most stupid thing the UK has done and yet have no arguments to put forward.

[Tinch]

Being a member of the EU is all about being a team player. That's the whole point of the EU. Having the EU manage stuff EU wide is the whole purpose of the union at this point. You still not getting it, are you. Nobody forces the UK to cede anything. And since the UK now decided it doesn't want to be a team player anymore, they're free to fuck off to the stands and watch from the outside. No problem. Just don't whinge about it while you're quitting.

And the UK has decided that it doesn't wish to have things managed by the EU and would rather makes its own path as an independent nation - in simplistic terms that's what the sovereignty argument boils down to. Like I said I can understand why people disagree with that and think it's outweighed by the benefits being a member of the EU brings, but it doesn't make the counter argument bullshit.

Cede was the wrong word to use, as said it above its more accurate to say that sovereignty is delegated to the EU. Nevertheless the outcome is still the same.

If there is any 'whingeing' then the majority of it is coming from the people who want us to remain in the EU.

[Tinch]

The the dumbfucks who voted brexit should be locked in a room and have on repeat Farage, Nuttal and the like calling for the UK to have a US style health system where if you're poor then fuck you and die quietly while us rich get all the healthcare.
.

In what way does being a member of the EU protect the NHS?

And in what alternate reality are Farage and Nuttal going to have any authority over how we choose to run the NHS in the future?

[Deleted]

In what way does being a member of the EU protect the NHS?

And in what alternate reality are Farage and Nuttal going to have any authority over how we choose to run the NHS in the future?

An increased ability of US healthcare companies to act on EU markets was a sticking point in the TTIP negotiations - Rest assured that the cheerleader for the treaty (the UK) would be pressured to agree in the putative US-UK trade treaty.

[ati87]

i voted to leave primarily as a protest vote against david cameron. i'm a socialist. also the referendum was about as democratic as it could possibly be. it was a referendum: in or out. it wasn't FPTP (admittedly shit) or anything like that. it asked us, stay in or leave the eu. 52% of people voted to leave, an overwhelming majority. this majority was further cemented in the 2017 GE when 85% of voters voted for parties supporting the referendum result.

that aside, my plan is to leave the UK for about 15-20 years and return after the looming economic troubles and societal problems are dealt with.

3% is hardly the overwhelmingness majority.

Also asking for immigration control isn't racist by-itself the reasons why you lot wanted control is.

[Demolitia]

An increased ability of US healthcare companies to act on EU markets was a sticking point in the TTIP negotiations - Rest assured that the cheerleader for the treaty (the UK) would be pressured to agree in the putative US-UK trade treaty.

To be fair I would only expect this to affect private medical centers/clinics.

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And the UK has decided that it doesn't wish to have things managed by the EU and would rather makes its own path as an independent nation - in simplistic terms that's what the sovereignty argument boils down to. Like I said I can understand why people disagree with that and think it's outweighed by the benefits being a member of the EU brings, but it doesn't make the counter argument bullshit.

Cede was the wrong word to use, as said it above its more accurate to say that sovereignty is delegated to the EU. Nevertheless the outcome is still the same.

If there is any 'whingeing' then the majority of it is coming from the people who want us to remain in the EU.

I still don't get why your government could have willingly delegated such powers for the last 45+ years if people feel so strongly against it.
It's a valid argument on its own, but you've had exceptions granted every step of the way for things your government did not want. Even if Cameron's last deal was marketed as something rather underwhelming, it gave you additional, unprecedented opt-out possibilities in the future.
At this point it feels like the last two options are:
-xenophobia. Sad and counterproductive but I understand poorer people in rural areas don't like the idea of foreigners in general. I can respect that but listening to them is basically shooting your whole country in the foot.
-rage-quitting because people are annoyed and misguided.

We will all live to see another day in the end. Somehow.
I wouldn't say anyone is whining, but there is some serious split between why people voted out, and the expected post-brexit outcome, so there is a legitimate discussion to have and this should have started the day after the vote.
Instead there was a political meltdown.
You don't navigate through such an event in such turmoil. You need a strong hand to lead, and to know what the hell it is you want, and why you want it.

[Huehuecoyotl]

An increased ability of US healthcare companies to act on EU markets was a sticking point in the TTIP negotiations - Rest assured that the cheerleader for the treaty (the UK) would be pressured to agree in the putative US-UK trade treaty.

That's why it was hilarious that one of the leave arguments was "we need to leave the EU before they impose TTIP on us" when the Tories were the biggest supporters of just accepting what the US was offering without question. It was the rest of the EU that was protecting us. One more example of the outright lies and misdirection that the Brexit crowd relied on to win the vote.

If we do leave, they will sign us up to whatever the US wants as quickly as they can. Then they can all retire to directorships of the UK/US private healthcare companies that spring up as a result. Which is why I'm rooting for the BINO option now. Where we will be forced to follow EU rules without any say in making them. It will actually neuter the Tories almost completely. A fitting way for this farce to end.

[Deleted]

That's why it was hilarious that one of the leave arguments was "we need to leave the EU before they impose TTIP on us" when the Tories were the biggest supporters of just accepting what the US was offering without question. It was the rest of the EU that was protecting us. One more example of the outright lies and misdirection that the Brexit crowd relied on to win the vote.

I personally liked the Turkey argument - It wasn't going to happen, and the UK was the biggest supporter, but the UK totally had to get out before the Turks could invade like the polish (never-mind the transition period available in the eventuality).

[Deleted]

i think leave voters should be knighted, leave voters saved the country from tyranny of the eu

A tyranny that you'll happily flee towards when Brexit actually kicks in.

Do you actually have a brain or is just a direct link to whatever retarded Facebook page you get all your arguments from.

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If there is any 'whingeing' then the majority of it is coming from the people who want us to remain in the EU.

No it hasn't and you know it.

The majority of the whining and moaning is coming from the Brexiteers who all voted for Brexit but have no unity in what they want that Brexit to look like.

If Brexiteers actually had a plan, a workable solid plan, they'd get far more support, because all it is at the moment is a bunch of talking heads shouting at each other until we end up with no deal because the EU gets tired of there shit.

[Demolitia]

A tyranny that you'll happily flee towards when Brexit actually kicks in.

The irony of calling the EU a tyranny when you live in a constitutional monarchy is rather delightful.

[Deleted]

UKIP continuing along the path to complete self destruction is a microcosm for the Brexiteer mentality.

They never expected to win, and now they've got no idea what to do with what they won and no one to turn to blame for there own shortcomings.

[Demolitia]

Corbyn raised that very question in PMQs a few weeks back. “Will a trade agreement with the US include America’s healthcare companies being allowed to bid for nhs work”? May’s answer was “we don’t know what the US would want from a trade deal”, suggesting that the nhs is on the table.

Not sure how it is in the UK but in France the government sets ceilings for drugs, doctors salaries, operation costs and quality standards, as well as ceilings for patients contributions. I'm not sure how this is a concern outside private medical centers. Unless they provide better stuff to the NHS for a similar and better price, they shouldn't stand a chance?
Signing the agreement doesn't mean you'll suddenly be charged 20k for an appendectomy.