Missing the 10 man Raids

[Deleted]

Yeah 10m raiding was the most fun for me. And i agree that their argument that "balancing 10 and 25 is too difficult" is shit, it's not like heroic now with 10 people isn't much harder than with 20+ on most fights.

[Deleted]

If you could raid Mythic with 10-15 people, how do you think Blizzard could get away with charging all of you £19 a time to transfer to a server that's alive (for another expansion or two)?

Think, people. It's not about you.

This Evil Blizzard mastermind!!!!!111!!!

/s

[Manico]

Same, I just can't keep playing anymore without 10man. I usually now raid 10man heroic and wait the next raid tier playing other games.

[Relapses]

10 man allowed raiding to be challenging for a lot more people. Once it went to 20 it became a lot more exclusive. There is a reason most guilds went to 10 man raiding. Path of least resistance. Less resistance means more players able to raid at a less than droll level obviously. But some people felt that other people killing pixels was a problem even though they never meet or talk to those people. They wanted fewer people killing pixels because they need something to feel good about.

...what? You're right on the first part but in bold you're just making mindless assumptions. The change to 20M wasn't because of "some people" being upset that "other people" were killing bosses. It was changed so Blizzard wouldn't have to create raids which catered to two completely distinct raid sizes anymore. More importantly -- regardless of whether you agree with the idea or not -- Blizzard still cares a lot about class representation in Mythic so they chose a larger raid size to facilitate it.

Bringing the whole 10 v 25 nonsense debate into the mix is completely irrelevant, especially given the fact that 20M's been around for nearly two entire expansions now.

[Gaidax]

This is simple, I used to raid 10 man for about as long as it was available, but I do buy all the reasons to make mythic 20 only, if that is what makes encounters more complex and smarter and makes content flow - I am all for it, after all bunch of excuses aside - anyone who wants to raid Mythic is able to do so, unless he is not really up to a challenge.

Let's not pretend that every mythic raider is some sort of active guild manager, if you are not then it makes bloody 0 difference whether it's 10 man or 20, just come and leech your epics as long as you can do the shit asked from you. You don't even need more than 6 hours a week to do it and clear tier before next one is out.

[ztn]

flex 15-25 is ok for everybody - sure they come to that in future...

[Gaidax]

flex 15-25 is ok for everybody - sure they come to that in future...

I'd be fine with that, but I am afraid it will devolve into the usual magic numbers game - if you bring 17 people then you get to skip XYZ.

Then you just benched 3 people like that for progress. Current system at least does not allow this bullshit.

[SerialPandaSnuggler]

Not sure what everyone is talking about. 10 man raids still exist. The reasons they got rid of multiple for the top difficulties is the reason you wont see it come back. If you disagree or dislike those reasons then mythic raiding just isn't for you. That's all there is.

[Deleted]

flex 15-25 is ok for everybody - sure they come to that in future...

This is very unlikely to happen because the risk of the encounter being more difficult at either edge is too great. If the encounter is based around running out of space and spreading out, going with 15 will make it a lot easier. If the encounter needs area to be covered, going with 25 is making it significantly easier than with 15, and this doesn't even go into specific boss mechanics.

This isn't a consideration for top guilds only, if anything this would affect the lower tier guilds more than anything. Having an endboss that is easier in 15/25 after a previous boss easier with 25/15 is likely to collapse a guild. An overall 20 is better.

As for 10 man only, this isn't gonna happen in an expansion where devs started by saying the goal was to make classes even more distinct.

[fallenangel-succ]

This is simple, I used to raid 10 man for about as long as it was available, but I do buy all the reasons to make mythic 20 only, if that is what makes encounters more complex and smarter and makes content flow - I am all for it, after all bunch of excuses aside - anyone who wants to raid Mythic is able to do so, unless he is not really up to a challenge.

Let's not pretend that every mythic raider is some sort of active guild manager, if you are not then it makes bloody 0 difference whether it's 10 man or 20, just come and leech your epics as long as you can do the shit asked from you. You don't even need more than 6 hours a week to do it and clear tier before next one is out.

However that's not the case, it does affect you in a very real way - if your guild has a roster larger than 20 (and it does), then you have a non trivial chance of being sat for the night.
With flex, you could at least join a guild that has a no-sit policy. In fixed size, this is by definition impossible.
I'm aware of the "find the best size" argument and replied to it previously. Basically, it comes down to social interaction and you can pick the right place for you (more progress minded vs a more social guild).

[Gaidax]

However that's not the case, it does affect you in a very real way - if your guild has a roster larger than 20 (and it does), then you have a non trivial chance of being sat for the night.
With flex, you could at least join a guild that has a no-sit policy. In fixed size, this is by definition impossible.
I'm aware of the "find the best size" argument and replied to it previously. Basically, it comes down to social interaction and you can pick the right place for you (more progress minded vs a more social guild).

Just as it would be the case with 10 man? What's the difference? Basically it's all up to you, I am a member of a pretty lean Mythic guild, everyone sits, but it's never a huge issue and honestly having a sit for me here and there is like a break and a good sleep for the next day.

As have already been mentioned, flex in Mythic would end up being a huge downer the moment mechanics get cheesed by bringing fewer/more people, as this is already the case with all these holy grails of 2/4/7 or other magic numbers people do for heroics and it will be even worse if as mentioned one fight would "require" 25 guys and then another 15 for easiest time.

Like Avatar, 1 less circle to soak is a big deal or heck Argus - less rages, less soulblights is also a big deal.

[fallenangel-succ]

Just as it would be the case with 10 man? What's the difference? Basically it's all up to you, I am a member of a pretty lean Mythic guild, everyone sits, but it's never a huge issue and honestly having a sit for me here and there is like a break and a good sleep for the next day.

As have already been mentioned, flex in Mythic would end up being a huge downer the moment mechanics get cheesed by bringing fewer/more people, as this is already the case with all these holy grails of 2/4/7 or other magic numbers people do for heroics and it will be even worse if as mentioned one fight would "require" 25 guys and then another 15 for easiest time.

Like Avatar, 1 less circle to soak is a big deal or heck Argus - less rages, less soulblights is also a big deal.

Did refer to just flex vs fixed - I agree that 20 vs 15 vs 10 won't change much in that regard.
The suggestion I posted earlier was to change nothing in the mechanics and allow just a narrow band of say 18-22 raiders (which adjusting HP and damage values of course). Maybe it's more trouble than it's worth, though.
And people mention cheesing, as if that isn't already what half of mythic is about. Bring a speedy tank and rush through Imonar's bridge to cheese it. Bring druids to coven to root adds and cheese it. Immune basically everything in ToS and cheese it. Or just the plain old stack the best DPS spec tactic.

[Gaidax]

Did refer to just flex vs fixed - I agree that 20 vs 15 vs 10 won't change much in that regard.
The suggestion I posted earlier was to change nothing in the mechanics and allow just a narrow band of say 18-22 raiders (which adjusting HP and damage values of course). Maybe it's more trouble than it's worth, though.
And people mention cheesing, as if that isn't already what half of mythic is about. Bring a speedy tank and rush through Imonar's bridge to cheese it. Bring druids to coven to root adds and cheese it. Immune basically everything in ToS and cheese it. Or just the plain old stack the best DPS spec tactic.

That cheesing though is of intended kind, but cheesing of a kind where we get 1 less soaking circle just because we brought x<Y raiders or oneshot mechanic becomes solo-soakable because of HP/Damage reduction is a whole another cup of tea.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Bringing the whole 10 v 25 nonsense debate into the mix is completely irrelevant, especially given the fact that 20M's been around for nearly two entire expansions now.

Naw.. I mean 25s technically were around from BC to MoP (4 expansions). 10 and 25 at the same time from WotLK to MoP (3 expansions). Yeah the 20 thing has been around for 2 (expansions). Only thing I have seen proven with raid sizes is NONE of the are actually safe. They will adjust to the tide of the game. If they 20 mans have a percentage thresh hold drop below a certain point it will get changed to widen the audience. Hell it might get changed just because someone at Blizzard wants it to be. But it is pretty clear they only want to developed content (mythic in this case) if X amount or X percent of players are seeing it. Or they don't seem to want to waste much time on. Which is why they love mythic + because the same content that the worse player on the planet face rolls can be scaled up instantly to the point even the best in the world cannot do it without having to create a balance team to constantly monitor or have constant tweaks or changes made to it so that people that aren't good enough can get though it to keep that invisible percentage of participation in mythic raiding where they want it. Its how things are justified in business. Oh, and yeah, Ion is going to say it isn't going to change until it does. Just like the others in his seat didn't say 25s were dead in the water at BC and the whole 10 man and 25 man thing was so toast in WotLK. They will only admit why its changing and that it needs to WHEN IT DOES. So people that are on his side of the fence can monkey up and down the tree screaming in glory and those that aren't don't stay up at night waiting it out.

But I get it. You like 20s. Got a 20 man guild likely. So its good for you. Shit you know what.. so do I. That is whats funny here. I actually am happy with the system but it has a whole lot to do with I am doing well within the system. Not afraid to say it or admit it. I just know for a lot of people its totally fucked the game over for them. I kind of care about them even in my success with the current system.

[Gaidax]

But I get it. You like 20s. Got a 20 man guild likely. So its good for you. Shit you know what.. so do I. That is whats funny here. I actually am happy with the system but it has a whole lot to do with I am doing well within the system. Not afraid to say it or admit it. I just know for a lot of people its totally fucked the game over for them. I kind of care about them even in my success with the current system.

Well TBH, people had 2 whole expansions to adapt to that and the whole adaptation is not a big deal, that's years away from that already. At this point I highly doubt you truly have people reeling because there is no 10 man, it became more of a wish or desire and quite probably an idealized one at that like Vanilla - the "things used to be better when X was a thing" kind.

For me it is very simple - starting messing around with more raid difficulties and sizes will certainly lead to content slowdown and this is something I do not want at all. I enjoyed the pace we had this expansion and I am certain it was enabled in part with fixed mythic size.

Of course maybe some even more ideal scheme exists, but I am sort of in a "if it works - don't fix it" mood when it comes to raiding, especially knowing how Blizzard improvements to something that works well often backfire.

[judgementofantonidas]

it's too hard to please them all.

would love a return to 10 man raiding

and there is the key. trying to please everyone. too many people and you get too many different opinions. even in a ten man group you can easily end up with too many opinions. It is completely unfair of Blizzard to arbitrarily choose the 20 person format as the only option for the true end game content.

[nocturnus]

and there is the key. trying to please everyone. too many people and you get too many different opinions. even in a ten man group you can easily end up with too many opinions. It is completely unfair of Blizzard to arbitrarily choose the 20 person format as the only option for the true end game content.

Well, they kinda solved it right? No more tiers means you won't feel compelled to raid anymore, heck, I know I won't! Considering mythic raid participation now, I predict [mythic] raiding will die out before the end of next xpac.

[judgementofantonidas]

Well, they kinda solved it right? No more tiers means you won't feel compelled to raid anymore, heck, I know I won't! Considering mythic raid participation now, I predict [mythic] raiding will die out before the end of next xpac.

I would have never thought that I would agree, but I do feel that removing the benefits of raiding will be a nail in it's coffin. Without raiding the game offers very little reason to stay. And I have been raiding and GM of a raid guild for 12 years.

[nocturnus]

I would have never thought that I would agree, but I do feel that removing the benefits of raiding will be a nail in it's coffin. Without raiding the game offers very little reason to stay. And I have been raiding and GM of a raid guild for 12 years.

I understand that if you actually enjoy raiding. I only raided mythic, because I felt I had to for the TIER sets, which I needed to perform well in the contect I actually enjoyed, which is M+.

That's flawed game design, imo. Next xpac I can do whatever I like doing, without being punished for skipping what I don't like.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Of course maybe some even more ideal scheme exists, but I am sort of in a "if it works - don't fix it" mood when it comes to raiding, especially knowing how Blizzard improvements to something that works well often backfire.

I guess the real question is does it really work for everyone? As in most? Did the switch to 20 only mythic cause an explosion in mythic raiding participation or a falling off of it? More or less? Hard to say since you have to ratio it a bit. The WoW population has had kind of a fall off since WoD when this all started (not saying its a direct connection, WoD was just pretty garbage over all).

It works great for me like I said. It works great in the eyes of everyone that typically has it. It is for those people that honestly have the same skill level they did in MoP for example that cleared hard content with 10 people that suddenly couldn't in WoD because of a roster instead of skill. Those on higher population realms had an easier time with multiple 10 man raids that could come together. Others that died and parted ways and these pieces reformed. But even in this advantageous position many undoubtedly slipped though the cracks. Some sure were just carried or not really up to speed. Some clearly weren't. But those on lower population realms? Ones that maybe had 2-3 10 man raiding guilds total on a faction? A whole lot more got boned. So they were faced with more or less stop raiding mythic, throw tons of money to xfer (a few toons in all likelihood), and in the process ditch friends/family/relationships from a location they might have been for possibly a decade to continue.

All of which was really just to create a solution that baby dick individuals had with who is better 10 or 25 man QQ and a multi-billion dollar cooperation not having to spend a few extra hundred thousand a raid tier balancing 2 sizes. Which the latter ended up being kind of silly because now they balance, normal / heroic / mythic and 2 of which flex requiring extra attention to numbers and size to figure it all out.

I will say it again though. It has worked out great for me so no personal complaints. I just can look at it objectively and say.. wow.. this might not be the best thing in the world just because I am winning.