Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[shaunika123]

I can see what you're saying with combat. It was literally just get hit cap then spam sinister strike, evis and refresh slice n dice/rupture and repeat. It peaked in MoP with assurance of consequences trinket though that sped up the cooldowns and gave the spec a nice flow. Plus massive haste made it even better.

I wouldnt say the pve rotations are much different now though. I mean sure sub can be tricky at times maximizing the specs full potential. But assassin and outlaw you can play with your eyes closed and do well.

yeah, and imagine that assa needed half the buttons it needs now.

no kingsbane, no garrote, no toxic blade

just weave envenoms and maintain rupture, that's it.

assa has received vast improvements in legion.

altough I think toxic blades was a step back, cos it kinda made the rotation awkward, but meh again it's something some like some dont.

[RobertoCarlos]

yeah, and imagine that assa needed half the buttons it needs now.

no kingsbane, no garrote, no toxic blade

just weave envenoms and maintain rupture, that's it.

assa has received vast improvements in legion.

altough I think toxic blades was a step back, cos it kinda made the rotation awkward, but meh again it's something some like some dont.

Theres more spells but it doesnt feel that different. Make sure rupture/garrote is always up. Try get in as many envenoms as you can. Most of the spells added were cooldowns which you just use off cooldown. Theres maybe more choice within the spec now? Maybe? I mean you can go bleed or poison build which is new. But honestly assassin is still the same to me.

[TummyBoy]

I'd like someone to correct me if I'm wrong here, as I'm not all that experienced with Sub. I'm still using KJBW + Antorus ring because the only other leggo I have are the boots.

It feels as if Sub is incredibly legendary reliant, not only for maximizing DPS, but for the spec to operate on a fundamental level. For example, look at Mantle: this enables Sub's burst windows to actually mean something, where with the guaranteed crits, we can make up for the less bursty filler stage of our rotation. As I'm playing the spec now, without Mantle the difference between DfA critting (for my shit gear about 7-8m damage) and DfA not critting is a huge difference, not even to mention the Eviscerate before it on the opener.

On top of this, the legendary gloves also have a substantial impact on our rotation. The cloak basically allows Sub to deal decent AoE damage as well.

I know a lot of specs are losing their legendaries. It just doesn't seem to me as if any spec I've played would be hit as hard as Sub. I have every (good) Fury, Arms, Aff, Demo, Destro, Disc, Shadow, and Havoc leggo. None of them seem absolutely mandatory for the spec to function, maybe excluding Velen's + class ring on Disc.

Anyone think all of this would almost necessarily have to be baked into the spec for Sub to even work in BfA?

[elfporn]

It certainly made it easier pointing out the scrub lord rogues when they would let their poisons drop off and not notice.

I'm just not a fan of the class reworks. The specs have gone backwards in my eyes rather than forward.

Im not a believer in less is more. less is just less.

The problem is that every expansion requires something "new" for all classes, the game needs that newness to attract new and retain old players.

So with the "newness" requirement, blizzard began running out of room to add new spells and abilities - player power progression being the best and most effective way to add newness with each expansion.

So they made up this term "button bloat" which sums up the entire issue, to continue expanding as a profitable game, "newness" is required, the best way to do that is to add and/or change the classes/abilities in the game with "newness".

The result after more than 12 years is that there became too many abilities per class/spec, it became too complex for new and returning players, etc. The answer was (obviously) to condense the spellbook, remove the dross, and add back as needed(or demanded). Doing so created room for more "newness". Without the pruning, we would never get new abilities with each expansion (like we have fore more than 12 years).

It's easy to understand from a logical business and customer care standpoint.

[RobertoCarlos]

The problem is that every expansion requires something "new" for all classes, the game needs that newness to attract new and retain old players.

So with the "newness" requirement, blizzard began running out of room to add new spells and abilities - player power progression being the best and most effective way to add newness with each expansion.

So they made up this term "button bloat" which sums up the entire issue, to continue expanding as a profitable game, "newness" is required, the best way to do that is to add and/or change the classes/abilities in the game with "newness".

The result after more than 12 years is that there became too many abilities per class/spec, it became too complex for new and returning players, etc. The answer was (obviously) to condense the spellbook, remove the dross, and add back as needed(or demanded). Doing so created room for more "newness". Without the pruning, we would never get new abilities with each expansion (like we have fore more than 12 years).

It's easy to understand from a logical business and customer care standpoint.

Yeah it does make sense they have changed the classes over 12 years. Would be a bit stale if they didnt.

I just think taking away spells and handing them to one spec is a weird move. They could do a new talent row or just give a new spell like with the artifacts. And merge /prune stuff that doesnt really gel when it gets bloated. Taking away gouge though for example just seems weird and lazy

[elfporn]

Yeah it does make sense they have changed the classes over 12 years. Would be a bit stale if they didnt.

I just think taking away spells and handing them to one spec is a weird move. They could do a new talent row or just give a new spell like with the artifacts. And merge /prune stuff that doesnt really gel when it gets bloated. Taking away gouge though for example just seems weird and lazy

That was the new class fantasy policy - they decided to add more contrast to all the specs (not just the classes). In the long term, it will be an excellent change - it gives them a significant amount of room for class/spec player power additions(ie: "newness" additions), short term(legion) it's a wash because it was such a significant amount of change coupled with the prune, all done at once.

[Millyraynge]

The problem is that every expansion requires something "new" for all classes, the game needs that newness to attract new and retain old players.

So with the "newness" requirement, blizzard began running out of room to add new spells and abilities - player power progression being the best and most effective way to add newness with each expansion.

So they made up this term "button bloat" which sums up the entire issue, to continue expanding as a profitable game, "newness" is required, the best way to do that is to add and/or change the classes/abilities in the game with "newness".

The result after more than 12 years is that there became too many abilities per class/spec, it became too complex for new and returning players, etc. The answer was (obviously) to condense the spellbook, remove the dross, and add back as needed(or demanded). Doing so created room for more "newness". Without the pruning, we would never get new abilities with each expansion (like we have fore more than 12 years).

It's easy to understand from a logical business and customer care standpoint.

wanna go back to the good old combat dagger time: BS, BS, BS, BS, BS, SnD -> rinse and repeat.

[Battlebeard]

I hope Outlaw get a huge change! Atm, it's unplayable.

Best would be to make it a ranged specc, to only have guns of different kinds, that would be awesome.

[Deleted]

I hope Outlaw get a huge change! Atm, it's unplayable.

Best would be to make it a ranged specc, to only have guns of different kinds, that would be awesome.

Actually, I think they nailed the mix of melee and range abilities with outlaw. However, I feel like 50 energy saber slash and therefore slow combo point build-up bottlenecks the spec (CotD + AR helped with that a little bit). There's also Roll the Bones which is still not properly balanced. I think with both of these problems solved outlaw could be a fun spec.

[Mafic]

Losing gouge and poisons were the biggest offenders. Picking out outlaw for gouge and assassin for poisons was kind of random. What about my fantasy of using poisons and being a shady rogue blizz? I dont want to be a pirate.

Yup.

The class and spec reworks for Legion were a failure. And all those interesting rotation interactions built for legion? Torn away heading into BFA.

- - - Updated - - -

That was the new class fantasy policy - they decided to add more contrast to all the specs (not just the classes). In the long term, it will be an excellent change - it gives them a significant amount of room for class/spec player power additions(ie: "newness" additions), short term(legion) it's a wash because it was such a significant amount of change coupled with the prune, all done at once.

They are not adding more in BFA they are pruning most of what was added in Legion.

[Varolyn]

Yup.

The class and spec reworks for Legion were a failure. And all those interesting rotation interactions built for legion? Torn away heading into BFA.

- - - Updated - - -



They are not adding more in BFA they are pruning most of what was added in Legion.

Eh, that sort of depends on what spec you are playing. For example, most of assassination's artifact traits were purely passive and didn't really add much to the rotation, though some did further emphasize envenom pooling. Moreover, the energy refund from vendetta trait, is being made baseline in BfA albeit in a weaker form. I guess Kingsbane being gone sucks, but dispatch is added back as a talent so you can take that to replace that button. Tbh I would rather see Kingsbane a talent than poison bomb, as crimsom tempest is already on that tier.

Of course, there are some specs that will feel really weird without their artifacts. I feel that loaded dice needs to be baseline for outlaw, and I have no idea how balance is going to play without their main ability. Perhaps blizz will just cave in and give every spec their main artifact ability after we get rid of them in BfA (I think this is the easiest solution).

[elfporn]

Yup.

The class and spec reworks for Legion were a failure. And all those interesting rotation interactions built for legion? Torn away heading into BFA.

- - - Updated - - -



They are not adding more in BFA they are pruning most of what was added in Legion.

Not necessarily true. They are phasing out artifact weapons (and many of the traits/abilities) and legendaries, with some stuff getting baked into the specs.

With artifact weapons gone, they are adding a different player power progression system with the “Azerite Armor”. Azerite armor is supposed to serve the same purpose in bfa that the artifact weapons and legendaries did in legion. We’ve seen little to nothing of Azerite armor to date.

[Varolyn]

This is an interesting article that clears up weapon scaling in BfA: http://www.wowhead.com/news=281913/b...ability-damage

So it's not entirely what it seemed like at first, and weapon ilvl still appears to be a very important part for rogues, hunters, and other melee. So you should still feel a higher sense of reward when getting a new weapon in BfA. However, it appears that all abilities will scale with your weapon in some degree, such as rupture, envenom, evis, etc. I like this approach to scaling as every melee class should now get good value from weapon ilvl, but of course, we have to see how it will be balanced.

[Master Guns]

It always makes me laugh the woe is me type posts during alpha haha. It’s like history repeats itself or something.

[lolpve]

It always makes me laugh the woe is me type posts during alpha haha. It’s like history repeats itself or something.

Yes, history repeating itself.

>people complain about serious design flaws throughout alpha and beta
>blizzard ignores them
>game launches with huge issues and class imbalances
>takes until a major content patch later before blizzard fixes issues raised in beta. Sometimes until the x.4 patch.

[cfStatic]

Still super early, I know. But with haste now affecting tick speed do y'all think that Sin's stat weights are going to resemble FDK where they juggle master/crit/haste to certain percentages or do you think that it wont have that much effect and mastery/crit will still be way out in front?

[Deleted]

Still super early, I know. But with haste now affecting tick speed do y'all think that Sin's stat weights are going to resemble FDK where they juggle master/crit/haste to certain percentages or do you think that it wont have that much effect and mastery/crit will still be way out in front?

I'm pretty sure we will have some kind of haste cap, after that it will be Crit/Mastery all over again (wich is finde for me).

[Deleted]

I just want Roll the Bones to guarantee two buffs.

[Naiattavain]

I did not say that PvE cannot exist I said that PvE benefits do not justify changes which ruin the most legendary and iconic PvP spec and class of all time.

I have nothing against PvE, I was a raider for years. I have everything against the small group of elitist PvE players who insist that PvP does not matter at all, those jerks who are so greedy that having 2/3 great Rogue PvE specs isn't enough, they need to ruin the greatest PvP spec in WoW history so that it can be theirs too. These people are the elitist jerks. All I want is to continue loving the spec that I have played since 2004.

And for the love of god, nobody cares that you were a Gladiator 10 years ago so why do you always mention that fact in every single argument about PvP? Nobody cares. I'm a BC glad also but you don't see me bringing it up in every discussion, because it doesn't mean anything at all. What have you done in PvP since then? Absolutely nothing, that's what. You have no idea at all what you are talking about so you would do well to keep your completely ignorant and uninformed by experience opinion to yourself.

Oh btw 1. apply shiv snare 2. gouge 3. get to LoS. If you don't have gouge in that situation you just get spammed with Chains of Ice, Slow, or any host of other abilities which prevent you from getting away. Gouge is actually an amazing ability and you're completely ignorant if you think it would be a wasted PvP talent. Would it be used by RMP/RMD? lol no. Would it be used by other Rogue comps like RPS, dancing with the stars, or smokebomb cleave? Uh, yes, rofl. Gouge is an amazing and useful ability in a variety of situations (great for baiting zerker from a warrior when you want to fear them, to name 1 example randomly off the top of my head), and only the ignorant and inexperienced would suggest otherwise.

As for getting CC'd in my Dance, of course nobody plays perfectly but on the rare occasion where I do get outplayed I give respect to the other player for capitalizing on my failure to cover Dance properly. Only noobs run to the forums to cry "oh no I got CCd on my Dance this spec is designed badly!" Go play another spec then. There are dozens of others which aren't so reliant on burst windows. That has been the identity of Subtlety PvP for a very long time, it's what the spec is all about. I've never once cried about that and anyone who has ought to be ashamed of themselves. I think it was awesome, fun, and unique, and there are tons of people who agree with me, and none of us deserved to lose our spec just so that the rest of you could get a 3rd one to play that's more homogenized and similar to all the other specs in the game.

for a rogue the rogue abilities should be better cc than other classes ranged cc. they got way too much cc. like having more rogue means you got more cc. i think other classes ranged cc should get trimmed.

[Wow]

So weapon dmg is obsolet now for Assa?

So I noticed on one of those might be the first alpha build there was some weapon damage modifiers and now I'm seeing more attack power based so is everything going to attack power now?

http://www.wowhead.com/news=281913/b...ability-damage

tldr: All abilities for all melee now scale with ap and weapon dps. So weapons will mean more for assassination than pretty much ever. It's alpha so things could change but as is weapons will be equally important to all melee specs in bfa.