Why is epgp thought so badly of?

[Shadowsgrace]

And on the flip side you basically gear all the non deidcated raid loggers and penalise the people that farm m+... gg

I'm not on the council, so I don't do squat. I don't know what their Criteria is, and doing M+ should not be a benchmark for whether you get loot from Raids or not. Some dedicated Mythic raiders in that guild don't have the Time to do them. I personally hate them, and stopped doing them. They aren't fun, never got 1 single usable Item, and Vendored that useless corrupted starlight trinket more times than I care to mention. I've all but one of my Classes Legiondaries, all of them at ilvl 1000, So I put forth as much effort as those that run M+ in being as geared as possible, I just don't waste my time on crap that is not fun....for me.

[Deleted]

I'm not on the council, so I don't do squat. I don't know what their Criteria is, and doing M+ should not be a benchmark for whether you get loot from Raids or not. Some dedicated Mythic raiders in that guild don't have the Time to do them. I personally hate them, and stopped doing them. They aren't fun, never got 1 single usable Item, and Vendored that useless corrupted starlight trinket more times than I care to mention. I've all but one of my Classes Legiondaries, all of them at ilvl 1000, So I put forth as much effort as those that run M+ in being as geared as possible, I just don't waste my time on crap that is not fun....for me.

wasnt aimed at you personally, i meant in general, the system of loot council basically penalises the people that farm m+

Like it or not geared people in your raid are a benefit to the raid, so people should try to keep them happy (if they are performing)

Ignoring them for loot distribution week on week only pushes them away, yes the item may be better for the other player, but for the guild as a whole its in the raids interest to keep the geared player interested too.

You cant on one hand use the arguement the player is greedy by wanting more upgrades and then actually be greedy yourself taking items off him just because he has more time / is more dedicated to do the tedious stuff.

By loot council logic you reward the undergeared players, you can get 960 just from spamming m+ 15s, it can be tedious yes, but to penalise someone for doing it is very counter productive towards the raid.

Tell me, do all geared players attend hc farming? more often than not half wont, why? because they dont need anything / wont get an upgrade, same goes for geared ppl when they attend hc, if there is something they need they will attend, if not you will most likely find they arent signed for that raid night, shallow but true.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I still prefer the straight DKP system above the other two simply because it rewards attendance and there are less politics. And, if I'm honest, there's some strategy to it so you have a little more control over your own gear progression.

Except that players strategizing their own loot progression means that items can end up being disenchanted even though they are an upgrade for somebody, because they're hoping for a certain drop later on in the instance or next week and they don't want to "waste" their points on an upgrade that they don't want as much.

After many years of raiding in guilds with different loot mechanisms, my experience has been that a good loot council is the fairest, most efficient way to gear a raid for progression. A not-good loot council will kill a guild in a few weeks, in which case a DKP/EPGP system would work better for that specific guild.

I would say that EPGP is thought of badly mainly because it is rather complicated, compared to simple DKP accounts.

[Shadowsgrace]

wasnt aimed at you personally, i meant in general, the system of loot council basically penalises the people that farm m+

Like it or not geared people in your raid are a benefit to the raid, so people should try to keep them happy (if they are performing)

Ignoring them for loot distribution week on week only pushes them away, yes the item may be better for the other player, but for the guild as a whole its in the raids interest to keep the geared player interested too.

You cant on one hand use the arguement the player is greedy by wanting more upgrades and then actually be greedy yourself taking items off him just because he has more time / is more dedicated to do the tedious stuff.

By loot council logic you reward the undergeared players, you can get 960 just from spamming m+ 15s, it can be tedious yes, but to penalise someone for doing it is very counter productive towards the raid.

Tell me, do all geared players attend hc farming? more often than not half wont, why? because they dont need anything / wont get an upgrade, same goes for geared ppl when they attend hc, if there is something they need they will attend, if not you will most likely find they arent signed for that raid night, shallow but true.

I see and get your point, but with our guild, they maintain a ilvl threshold they must maintain. This changed from tier to tier, as ilvl rose. But, to your own point, I've known a few, now ex-guildies, that only farmed M+ then tried to jump in the group for the "Farm bosses" of the Mythic runs. They did nothing for Heroic Progression, and do nothing for Mythic progression. This is where Loot Council pulls ahead. I've been a serious raider since TBC, I've seen many Loot systems. While DKP did put a lot on the personal player's head, (e.g. attendance, prepared, knowledge of the fights, etc...) I've see some GM's that have favored some people (e.g. irl friend, gf/bf, other officers...). Some looting methods work for some people, and not for others. No one way will every please everyone. This is why we have Options, most these days, prefer loot council.

[Talvindius]

EPGP's main downfall is that new players are basically prohibited from getting loot for a set window of time. It's a system that rewards veterans of the raid group and punishes new players.

The upside is that it rewards attendance but TBH you're not gonna get new attendees if they're not gonna get the loot they want because some horder has a billion points to spend on anything that titanforges or is BiS.

It's a dated system with some limited merits from a time when the game was much less casual friendly, with how the game is now it has no real place in raid guilds when you can just use a loot council system to make things more fair.

Plus any garbage player can just show up to raid, sandbag, gain a bunch of points and outbid a better performer. That's one of the larger flaws.

[clevin]

Because full EPGP is stupid.

I don't care some asshole hoarded all his points and wants some relic that is a marginal upgrade that he will be replacing from doing Heroic Argus.

If it isn't his BiS, he shouldn't get priority on it, no matter how many points he decided to accumulate.

Point horders end up undergeared and being carried anyway, so saying they are "playing, pulling their weigth and saving up" is ludicrous. Chances are they are the least equipped toons in the group.

Well the RL could not be an idiot and use decay to avoid that. I mean, that's not a hard problem to solve and it's only a problem if the people running loot are incredibly uninformed.

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EPGP's main downfall is that new players are basically prohibited from getting loot for a set window of time. It's a system that rewards veterans of the raid group and punishes new players.

That works out over time, though, as people cycle to the top if they keep showing up. And, frankly, you don't want a ton of loot going to new people right away because 1) they've not done much for the raid yet and 2) they might leave/start not showing. As long as points are done right this becomes a non-issue pretty fast.

The upside is that it rewards attendance but TBH you're not gonna get new attendees if they're not gonna get the loot they want because some horder has a billion points to spend on anything that titanforges or is BiS.

If the new person is so focused on loot that they whine after a week or two, that's not a good raider to have around. Use decay to disincentivize hoarding.

It's a dated system with some limited merits from a time when the game was much less casual friendly, with how the game is now it has no real place in raid guilds when you can just use a loot council system to make things more fair.

LC is best with raids that have a consistent attendance. It's great in mythic because you have a fixed size raid, too. EPGP allows for less than great attendance and works best in N and H which flex. Each has their own place.

Plus any garbage player can just show up to raid, sandbag, gain a bunch of points and outbid a better performer. That's one of the larger flaws.

Loot systems aren't the way to deal with garbage players. Any RL who does that isn't a good leader since part of being a RL is setting standards and telling people who don't meet those that they're not going to be able to raid.


At the end of the day, you have to match the loot system to the kind of raid, the people and the goals. I'd never use the same loot system both for a friends and family guild that screws around in N and maybe some H and for a progression oriented mythic guild. Stop trying to argue that X is the best in all cases because that's just not true.

[kamuimac]

1 guild has a retarded loot council therefore all guilds have a retarded loot council, got it.

and yeah net upgrade affects progression, if everyone's goal is progression then the net upgrade matters the most, otherwise sure wipe for a few more hours a week waste everyone's time because of "fairness".

its not it - yes loot council is technically better but since a lot - and i mean a lot of loot councils are really corrupted and only gear up buddies of officers and gives scraps to rest people tend to have bad experience with it.

also people are way to fascinated with BiS concept - yes it may matter for guilds which are really cutting edge material but since most of guilds arent and never will be it shouldnt have place in those and it corrupts very fast when not maintainced properly .

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]EPGP's main downfall is that new players are basically prohibited from getting loot for a set window of time. It's a system that rewards veterans of the raid group and punishes new players. [/B]

thats not really true - yes completly new players wont get best trinkets/tier/relics(weapons) imidiately when join group but will get a lot of stuff that people dont want and eventually they will get best drops too.

the only ones hurt by that are people with unhealthy bis obssesion who go bananas with "if its not bis its trash" .

golden rule of anyone joining new guild with epgp system is just need on anything you may need from day 1 ,dont save points for really bis stuff because it will be weeks before you will have enough for it anyway and decay will delay it anyway.

[Whatever Dude]

This is why some people should never be allowed to make decisions. BIS vs marginal upgrade. The fact that you have any opinion other than BIS should go to the person who best benefits from it shows your lack of ability to make any decision. I wouldn't even let you pick what we eat for dinner

It's an opinion typical of players in bad guilds who aren't doing Mythic content. Professionalism only really starts to show up in the top 500 world guilds, from what I've experienced.

[ComputerNerd]

Its because of disagreement on what defines someone having "earned" the loot.
EPGP in a way removes subjective opinions from the process, and that reduces loot opportunities for those reliant on other methods of swinging opinions, such as being friendly with members of the council.

[Frolk]

EPGP rewards the individual right there and then
Lootcouncil rewards the team longterm


And PL rewards the LFR/normal raider and the cesspool guilds.

[Sylvaeres]

It's an opinion typical of players in bad builds who aren't doing Mythic content. Professionalism only really starts to show up in the top 500 world guilds, from what I've experienced.

I agree completely with all of this

[Filfa]

First hand example.

Shaman 1 is a core raider, in for every progression fight
Shaman 2 is a bench sitter, only comes in when we're desperate for people

End of tier, desperate for raiders, Shaman 1 has spent all his ep on progression kills so he has gear to continue, Shaman 2 comes in for half a dozen pulls on kill, has more ep than you can poke a stick at and takes all the loot.

p.s Shaman 2 got abused and she ended up crying, was funny.

[clevin]

First hand example.

Shaman 1 is a core raider, in for every progression fight
Shaman 2 is a bench sitter, only comes in when we're desperate for people

End of tier, desperate for raiders, Shaman 1 has spent all his ep on progression kills so he has gear to continue, Shaman 2 comes in for half a dozen pulls on kill, has more ep than you can poke a stick at and takes all the loot.

And that's YOUR FAULT. EP needs to decay and also needs to be set so that someone on a bench gets noticeably less than an active raider (and of course only if they're online).

Loot systems can't fix stupid.

p.s Shaman 2 got abused and she ended up crying, was funny.

Yeah abusing people is funny. To assholes.

[Deleted]

All this debate comes down to is:

EPGP type systems are favoured by those who see loot as a reward for killing a boss
LC type systems are favoured by those who see loot as a tool for killing the next boss.

My guild operates LC, we're pretty casual (8/11) and the key to our LC being successful (IMO) is that out of the five votes, only one is an officer and the other four come from diverse "social groups" of the guild. The raid leader has no part of the LC process. They won't always make the right decisions (is that ever possible?!) but there's no single place to direct complaint at because of the diversity within the council itself.

Genuine question for EPGP guilds though, how do you handle the requirement to "power-gear" certain classes for progress? Even at a fairly casual level of mythic raiding like ours, you're either already progressing on or you're about to progress on a fight like Aggrammar which for us has a comp requirement that relies on us power-gearing some alts to make it work, surely bringing in a DK alt (for example) and throwing loads of gear at him/her over a few resets would make a complete mockery of the EPGP system?

You don't have to be Method to have specific class/spec requirements in mythic content, and it's a bit of a fantasy to expect all guilds to have a roster to suit all requirements without the occasional need to rely on an alt, or casual/social raider.

[Dolus]

I remember one of the main problems with DKP was people hording up points for one piece of gear (For example, Perdition's Blade). When they could have spent those points across weeks on armor upgrades that would have helped progression as a whole. We introduced a system called Lucky Loot. Every boss kill gave you 10 points. You could save your points up until the end of the run, but it would reset to 0 after the raid. You were encouraged to spend points on upgrades and not horde them.

[kamuimac]

First hand example.

Shaman 1 is a core raider, in for every progression fight
Shaman 2 is a bench sitter, only comes in when we're desperate for people

End of tier, desperate for raiders, Shaman 1 has spent all his ep on progression kills so he has gear to continue, Shaman 2 comes in for half a dozen pulls on kill, has more ep than you can poke a stick at and takes all the loot.

p.s Shaman 2 got abused and she ended up crying, was funny.

thats :
a)yout fault for keeping him on bench for prolonged time
b)his fault for not leaving your guild earlier and joining guild which wouldnt sit him .

i

[Leih]

I've used EPGP in the past and it has two main problems for me, for any guild actually interested in progression:

1) The decay is really hard to get right. Too little, and you encourage people to hoard points for something that may never drop in future instead of spending on smaller upgrades that would have helped you here and now. Too much and EP feels meaningless, rewards and attendance start to get devalued and new/AFK members catch up way too quickly, meaning you have to have a bunch of extra rules about attendance keep it fair. Finding the sweet spot for EP awarded and Decay that works for your guild is tricky.

2) Speaking of extra rules... using pure EPGP on its own can be a bit messy. While mathematically it's usually pretty sound and "fair" it requires too much modification to cover niche cases. Looting is usually not as black and white as all that, especially if you've got a high churn rate or you're progression minded (or both). EPGP doesn't handle some situational things very well. Offspec use, BiS vs. minor upgrades/replaceable slots. People passing on minor upgrades for friends get punished when their points decay and they end up with less loot overall even though they were thinking of the guild first. People don't want to ever bid on non-tier items because they know they'll replace it with tier. Priorities for people with special roles or jobs in the current tier. Gearing up multiple specs like if you have a dedicated healer/DPS hybrid. If you want to make some of this stuff work well with EPGP you normally end up adding all sorts of little rules to it as these situations come up... before you know it you have so many modifiers you might as well just use a loot council.

All that said, for a super casual guild like mine is at the moment, we just use open rolling with a few basic priority guidelines because there's no need to care about loot when you don't progress in Mythic.

[Simiric]

To be fair, I think most people hear the stories of "This rogue back in TBC spent all his EP on the glaives, gimping the raid for all progression then leaving". This gives them a bad impression of a poorly implemented system.

It has advantages and disadvantages, like every system, but if you never used it, you will only hear the bad stories.
"last week our guild had another drama free loot session" doesn't make a good story.

[Marrilaife]

First hand example.

Shaman 1 is a core raider, in for every progression fight
Shaman 2 is a bench sitter, only comes in when we're desperate for people

Biggest problem with your guild is having a rank of "perma bench sitter". I've been once in a guild like that who had some "social - backup raider" type of people, these people would always be undergeared and lack experience because they'd only be slotted in if there weren't enough main raiders, but that, in my opinion, was fault of the GM who established this kind of rank. You need to have more raiders than slots to accommodate for emergencies, but it's more fair to rotate them than have one guy 99% of the time in and the other one 1% of the time when the first one has power outage or went to the hospital.

Not even mentioning that bench sitters are prone to leaving because they come to realization they aren't seeing content, they aren't getting loot, and they're laughing stock of the guild due to being "second class raider".

[Sabinn]

This reminds of the one guild I was raiding that used EPGP, I had 3 parts and it dropped the 4th on Gul'dan , I was higher on the points among the players that wanted the chest piece that dropped but someone else that had more points than me wanted to try for warforge ( he wasnt wearing the chestpiece set due to his chest being of a higher item level). So in the end he used his points to pretty much sell that gear on a vendor for 40 gold while we had to wait another week for an upgrade. On this occasion I almost left the guild as obviously I was outraged how the RL could accept such a thing as he said: " those were his points so he could do whatever he wanted with them". I dont use EPGP ever since.