Draenor Orcs over Mag'har Orcs

[Maxilian]

My person favorite piece is probably the boots. Love that angular, "Iron Horde" inspired asesthetic - something that combines and encapsulates the whole "savage" and primitive vibe but also updated for the modern age (relative to the Warcraft universe anyways).

That's the power of giving Orcs Goblin technology (It bothers me a little that the Horde, having the Goblins, don't see such advancement in more places -well... pretty sure that Orgrimmar reconstruction was also part of Goblin ingenuity)

[Friendlyimmolation]

Can't wait for it for sure, now if only one of their racial is just "Make like Garrosh and drop your weapon and beat the shit out of someone with your fists instead."

[Maxilian]

Can't wait for it for sure, now if only one of their racial is just "Make like Garrosh and drop your weapon and beat the shit out of someone with your fists instead."

Throw weapon ability, make a ranged attack, and then give you a small attack speed buff (no weapon equipped until the buff runs out)

Hopefully :P

[Biotec]

AU Orcs is just not something I want to see.

First off let me just say that the idea that Draenor Orcs would be better because "upgraded models and more customization" is just ridiculous. Of course the Mag'har look worse, they were from 4 expansions prior and haven't been updated. There's no reason Blizzard wouldn't just give them all the same customization. We already know that Mag'har from Outland contains at least 4 clans (Greatmother-Frostwolf, Saurfang-Blackrock, Jorin-Bleeding Hollow, Garrosh-Warsong), and they could easily add survivors from the rest of the clans with no issue. They could also just add tattoos and other stuff to existing characters and act like it was always there with little issues. If Jorin showed up with tattoos like Kilrogg, no one would bat an eye. They could even make bringing the other survivors into the official "Mag'har" part of the quest chain when you go to unlock them.

Second the Horde doesn't really need more power. They just got the Nightborne, the Zandalari and the Highmountain Tauren. All of those forces are fairly powerful both physically and magically. The Zandalari also bring an army of god damn dinosaurs to the Horde. Another factor is the Alliance apparently lost a lot of people during Legion, Anduin himself says so. Power wise, the factions are much more equal than they were after MoP.

Third, the idea of bringing characters form the AU is just a lore clusterfuck waiting to happen. I love Grom too, but bringing him back to the Horde just seems like a really bad idea. It discounts all the things his main universe counterpart did, and just feels like a real asspull. Suddenly the Horde just have the option to bring back some of their dead heroes, and the Alliance is going to be pissed. Where do we cut it off? Do they get to bring back Yrel and all the alt Draenei? What about Akama? Do they get to pull a Lothar out of some pocket Azeroth? It just seems like a bad idea, especially when you have a new generation with Jorin Deadeye. Both Saurfang Jr and Garrosh got to come over and do fairly memorable things, now it should be his turn. We shouldn't keep looking to the past for characters to use, they should be developing a new generation.

And finally there's the argument about "They are already part of the Horde!", which I call BS. We see some of them have clearly joined the Horde, but just like the Dark Irons, it was probably not all of them. It's likely that a lot of them stayed behind because they were uninterested in getting into the Horde like Garrosh was, or maybe they just wanted to live their lives on Outland. Furthermore, it seems like the Mag'har have the best reason to leave and come to Azeroth, which is Outland being a crumbling mess that probably doesn't have too much longer to exist. The Mag'har will probably realize this and want to come over to Azeroth. The AU Draenor however, is thriving minus Tanaan. It also seems like the world came to a relative peace after Archimonde died, so there wouldn't be any real reason for Garrosh and the Iron Horde to just dump the planet and come to ours to fight alongside the people who spent an entire expansion slaughtering them.

The AU is just a mess with little story potential, but the Mag'har of Outland have a lot to offer the Horde. I'd much rather we just leave Draenor as is and focus on new characters that should be given the chance to develop.

[Dagoth Ur]

I wish they'd just expand customization options for everyone (ie, green orcs with tattoos as well).

That's how it should've been done imo. Then players can just choose between green skin or mag'har one, depending on which one they prefer. Would also like to see customization for nose rings and piercings on regular orcs too.

- - - Updated - - -

I was hoping they wouldn't add pants so orcs would get to run around in loincloths like proper barbarians. Disappointing.

Agreed. We need that proper Arnold Schwarzenegger Conan the Barbarian look for our orcs.

[Lochton]

I would believe Mag'har to be the choice more, as the Draenor orc clans are many more selections.

[DeicideUH]

Mag'har would be the better choice.

Why?

- They are comprised by many original clans. For sure, we know they have remnants of Warsong and Bleeding Hollow, but nothing prevents them from having people from Shadowmoon, Blackrock or whatever. Thus, you can justify any of the Draenor clan traits (skin colors, tatoo styles) in Mag'har.
- Their presence would be an update on the status of Outland, and Outland needs some love, no matter how small.
- They come from MU, avoiding all the AU crap

Evidence that could point to them being Mag'har, not AU orcs:

- Mount name
- Armor style has nothing of the Iron Horde advanced tech themes
- The Gorgrond map used is from Alpha, different from Draenor's. Why use a different map if we'd be getting back to AU!Draenor? It may be some kind of shamanic vision or spirit quest that shows the past of MU!Draenor. Plus, Lightforged Draenei scenario also reused a Draenor setting (from Tanaan), and it was just some kind of vision.

In short, I really hope we don't touch alternate universe shenanigans.

[Graden]

Can't wait for it for sure, now if only one of their racial is just "Make like Garrosh and drop your weapon and beat the shit out of someone with your fists instead."

Guess I'll have to start farming Tusks of Mannoroth again.

[Syegfryed]

if the maghar or au draenor orcs do not have bloodfury im gonna riot

[TriHard]

Draenor orcs literally mean the orc tribes of Draenor. So while their mount might just be the wolf mount, it'll likely be the Blackrock, Laughing Skull and Frostwolves that you'll see become playable, simply because they're the favorites.

I don't think we'll see the bladefists and the pale orcs.

[Fyersing]

Yeah I feel you. Horde without Hellscream just doesn't feel the same. It's just that it would be strange having alternate version of one of the greatest orcish hero come chill with us. I guess I could swallow it if they do it right.

The emphasized portion is an affront to the Horde narrative (from Wrath of the Lich King through Warlords of Draenor).

By almost every imaginable metric, Garrosh surpassed Grommash; as well, though he presents as being clearly biased in favor of those he considers to display preferable tendencies (i.e. those who behave like True Orcs), this is something that virtually all who've bore the mantle of Warchief are guilty of -- the current occupant as much, if not moreso, than any.

[Dagoth Ur]

The emphasized portion is an affront to the Horde narrative (from Wrath of the Lich King through Warlords of Draenor).

By almost every imaginable metric, Garrosh surpassed Grommash; as well, though he presents as being clearly biased in favor of those he considers to display preferable tendencies (i.e. those who behave like True Orcs), this is something that virtually all who've bore the mantle of Warchief are guilty of -- the current occupant as much, if not moreso, than any.

Although I would definitely rank Doomhammer and Thrall above Grom, I think comparing Grom and Garrosh is not that simple. Probably biggest difference is that Grom's story is one of redemption, while Garrosh's is somewhat exactly the opposite - fall from grace type of scenario. Thing to consider when discussing Grom is that what also helped elevate him to his hero status was Thrall effortlessly pushing for it and for symbolism of the whole situation - orcs finally freeing themselves from demonic influence of blood of Mannaroth. Also now in alpha we see Saurfang endlessly babbling about hero's death, which Grom's one is kinda perfect inspirational example of.

Don't get me wrong, I think Garrosh is awesome character and saying he hasn't done anything good for the orcs would be straight up false. It's just that his villain status in the end hasn't exactly helped cement him as one of the orcish heroes young orcs should look up too.

[Fyersing]

Although I would definitely rank Doomhammer and Thrall above Grom, I think comparing Grom and Garrosh is not that simple. Probably biggest difference is that Grom's story is one of redemption, while Garrosh's is somewhat exactly the opposite - fall from grace type of scenario. Thing to consider when discussing Grom is that what also helped elevate him to his hero status was Thrall effortlessly pushing for it and for symbolism of the whole situation - orcs finally freeing themselves from demonic influence of blood of Mannaroth. Also now in alpha we see Saurfang endlessly babbling about hero's death, which Grom's one is kinda perfect inspirational example of.

Don't get me wrong, I think Garrosh is awesome character and saying he hasn't done anything good for the orcs would be straight up false. It's just that his villain status in the end hasn't exactly helped cement him as one of the orcish heroes young orcs should look up too.

It fully depends upon how you frame the situation. With the exception of the Frostwolves, virtually every Orcish Clan (in the MU, and AU) believes exactly as Garrosh did: that society should be organized in such a way that the strong lead, the weak follow. This is something that one of the short stories mentions as being highly sought after among the Orgrimmar Orcs (Frostwolf, included), and is stated to be one of the major reasons why Thrall handed over the reigns to Garrosh in the first place.

From the perspective of non-Frostwolf Orcs, especially any "Draenor Orcs" that are to come, there isn't really anything that Garrosh did that jumps out as being unreasonable. Which isn't to say that the other members of the Horde weren't somewhat justified in their coup d'etat, because of course they should fight for their own interests, but rather that it's not likely that many/most of the Ogrimmar Orcs (especially if this comes to include hundreds/thousands of others) would view Garrosh as anything other than a hero.

Which, of course, means they probably also perceive Thrall to be a coward, unfit for any position of power.

[Dagoth Ur]

It fully depends upon how you frame the situation. With the exception of the Frostwolves, virtually every Orcish Clan (in the MU, and AU) believes exactly as Garrosh did: that society should be organized in such a way that the strong lead, the weak follow. This is something that one of the short stories mentions as being highly sought after among the Orgrimmar Orcs (Frostwolf, included), and is stated to be one of the major reasons why Thrall handed over the reigns to Garrosh in the first place.

From the perspective of non-Frostwolf Orcs, especially any "Draenor Orcs" that are to come, there isn't really anything that Garrosh did that jumps out as being unreasonable. Which isn't to say that the other members of the Horde weren't somewhat justified in their coup d'etat, because of course they should fight for their own interests, but rather that it's not likely that many/most of the Ogrimmar Orcs (especially if this comes to include hundreds/thousands of others) would view Garrosh as anything other than a hero.

Which, of course, means they probably also perceive Thrall to be a coward, unfit for any position of power.

Thing is Blizzard said that majority of orcs sided with the Darkspear rebellion, which kinda implies they didn't see Garrosh in any sort of heroic light and that they even outright disliked how he was running things. If we're talking about unrealized potential of Cata Garrosh, who showed great promise and characteristics of strong orcish warchief then I fully agree with you.

I think what turned Orgrimmar orcs off is when Garrosh started turning close allies into enemies. I mean after everything they went through, I think orcs have come to learn to value their allies, especially Tauren and Darkspear with whom they formed sort of brotherhood relationship after events of War3.

[Fyersing]

Thing is Blizzard said that majority of orcs sided with the Darkspear rebellion, which kinda implies they didn't see Garrosh in any sort of heroic light and that they even outright disliked how he was running things. If we're talking about unrealized potential of Cata Garrosh, who showed great promise and characteristics of strong orcish warchief then I fully agree with you.

I'm curious if you're referring to post made by CM Bashiok? Because if so the statement needs to be taken very lightly, considering CM's are glorified moderators as well as that all of the actual in-game writing suggests the opposite.

If it was true that "a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone", two very narrative-shattering questions arise:

1) Why/how was a fringe minority able to politically and militarily dominate not only the remaining majority of their own people, but to holdout against all of their former allies (and enemies) for weeks/months? Does the ease with which they lay claim to the power structures lend credence to their assertions of ethnic/cultural superiority?

2) If the True Horde was, indeed, only a fringe minority... why does the narrative continuously suggest that Orgrimmar is facing it's darkest hour, population-wise, post-MoP? If they only lost 10%, that should hardly have disrupted their super-power status, no?

I think what turned Orgrimmar orcs off is when Garrosh started turning close allies into enemies. I mean after everything they went through, I think orcs have come to learn to value their allies, especially Tauren and Darkspear with whom they formed sort of brotherhood relationship after events of War3.

The problem being that this would only apply to the Frostwolf, who likely no longer constitute the majority of all Orgrimmar Orcs. In an overall sense, this is especially going to be the case following "Draenor Orcs" being added.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm curious if you're referring to post made by CM Bashiok? Because if so the statement needs to be taken very lightly, considering CM's are glorified moderators as well as that all of the actual in-game writing suggests the opposite.

If it was true that "a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone", two very narrative-shattering questions arise:

1) Why/how was a fringe minority able to politically and militarily dominate not only the remaining majority of their own people, but to holdout against all of their former allies (and enemies) for weeks/months? Does the ease with which they lay claim to the power structures lend credence to their assertions of ethnic/cultural superiority?

2) If the True Horde was, indeed, only a fringe minority... why does the narrative continuously suggest that Orgrimmar is facing it's darkest hour, population-wise, post-MoP? If they only lost 10%, that should hardly have disrupted their super-power status, no?



The problem being that this would only apply to the Frostwolf, who likely no longer constitute the majority of all Orgrimmar Orcs. In an overall sense, this is especially going to be the case following "Draenor Orcs" being added.

There was a minority of "Our" horde that joined him. He still had the blackrock and the dragonmaw and a group of Maghar. He didn't need "Thralls Horde" of orcs to sustain his armies numbers.

[Syegfryed]

1) Why/how was a fringe minority able to politically and militarily dominate not only the remaining majority of their own people, but to holdout against all of their former allies (and enemies) for weeks/months? Does the ease with which they lay claim to the power structures lend credence to their assertions of ethnic/cultural superiority?

an organized minority almost always prevails over a disorganized majority, besides, they had high tech and specialized tactics, the marjory in fear with no one to guide then was just a easy target

2) If the True Horde was, indeed, only a fringe minority... why does the narrative continuously suggest that Orgrimmar is facing it's darkest hour, population-wise, post-MoP? If they only lost 10%, that should hardly have disrupted their super-power status, no?

Orgrimmar to face a dark hour, but is not that exaggerated, it was more because th others races didn't saw orcs like before

about population-wise the narrative neve suggest they are poor in numbers, just in Legion, but because of the broken shore fail.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm curious if you're referring to post made by CM Bashiok? Because if so the statement needs to be taken very lightly, considering CM's are glorified moderators as well as that all of the actual in-game writing suggests the opposite.

Yeah, that's the one. While I agree Blizzard often says one thing and shows other, blue posts are usually taken seriously around here so I took it like that too.

1) Why/how was a fringe minority able to politically and militarily dominate not only the remaining majority of their own people, but to holdout against all of their former allies (and enemies) for weeks/months? Does the ease with which they lay claim to the power structures lend credence to their assertions of ethnic/cultural superiority?

Like others already said, only minority of Orgrimmar orcs joined True Horde. Garrosh's loyalists consisted mainly of Mag'har, Blackrock and Dragonmaw with the latter not even being part of the Horde until Garrosh granted them amnesty in Cata. What also contributed their holdout was probably because they entrenched themselves in Orgrimmar and made it into a near impregnable fortress with all sorts of goblin tech provided by Blackfuse.

2) If the True Horde was, indeed, only a fringe minority... why does the narrative continuously suggest that Orgrimmar is facing it's darkest hour, population-wise, post-MoP? If they only lost 10%, that should hardly have disrupted their super-power status, no?

Well in the end, Horde still went through civil war and lost some numbers due to deaths on both sides. What was by then mainly stalemate between Horde and Alliance now went in favor of the Alliance. Orgrimmar also went through siege which lorewise must have left some marks on the city and it's housing too. What Syegfried said makes sense too, trust that other races had in orcs after Soo was certainly shaken and maybe they returned to their respective races capitals instead of remaining in Orgrimmar. I mean there's certainly enough to justify addressing it as "Orgrimmar's darkest hour".

[Clone]

I'm curious if you're referring to post made by CM Bashiok? Because if so the statement needs to be taken very lightly, considering CM's are glorified moderators as well as that all of the actual in-game writing suggests the opposite.

If it was true that "a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone", two very narrative-shattering questions arise:

1) Why/how was a fringe minority able to politically and militarily dominate not only the remaining majority of their own people, but to holdout against all of their former allies (and enemies) for weeks/months? Does the ease with which they lay claim to the power structures lend credence to their assertions of ethnic/cultural superiority?

2) If the True Horde was, indeed, only a fringe minority... why does the narrative continuously suggest that Orgrimmar is facing it's darkest hour, population-wise, post-MoP? If they only lost 10%, that should hardly have disrupted their super-power status, no?



The problem being that this would only apply to the Frostwolf, who likely no longer constitute the majority of all Orgrimmar Orcs. In an overall sense, this is especially going to be the case following "Draenor Orcs" being added.

The said fringe minority had majority support until they went off the deep end, and by the time they did they were in a position of strength to hold out.

[bbrewer]

Well boys and girls, it looks like they are going to be Draenor Orcs (Check Wowhead).

It would be foolish to say with 100% certainty, but the jokes heavily imply that they are in fact WOD Orcs.