Iceland proposes ban on male circumcision

[AwkwardSquirtle]

People citing religion in support of circumcision are short-sighted. The whole point of religion was to improve the lives of people subscribed to that religion. Even practical matters like personal hygiene fall under what religion aimed to improve. These days we are very far from needing religious motivation to keep up with our personal hygiene. We have infinite warm running water. If your son's dick smells then teach him how to shower, don't cut off his foreskin for Jesus.

Nobody who knows how to read a bible is getting circumcised for Jesus, Gentiles not requiring circumcision was decided in Acts, it's one of the first things that the early church agreed on.

[Levelfive]

Assuming that the number is even correct, which medical organizations are disputing. Which is my point about it being hyperbole.

You bolded the 'complications and even deaths' part, and then said, "I'll take outrageous hyperbole for [whatever]." Then you must have looked it up quickly and found this article, since you are quoting it almost verbatim, because you went from 'doesn't happen,' to, 'doesn't happen often, that's what I meant.' There's no sound reason it should happen at all, which is my point.

[Martymark]

Pros/cons of circumcision listed below:

https://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditi...e/circumcision

They don't list any downsides to circumcision at all like loss of sensitivity. So I guess "webmb" would say cutting off the clitoris has no downside either.

[Allybeboba]

It's the parents that overstep their boundaries. Children aren't your playthings.

Kek...
Telling a parent they can’t make decisions for their own children. Might as well just make all children wards of the state then if you really that way my friend. See the other part of my statement you quoted if you really feel that strongly about it.
MMOC-OT really should make a circumcision mega thread for all you extremists to vent in. This topic comes up at least once a month.

Peace

[zorkuus]

They don't list any downsides to circumcision at all like loss of sensitivity.

Ofc they don't. It's in the US. It's like asking a leper to judge a beauty contest.

[Krigaren]

You bolded the 'complications and even deaths' part, and then said, "I'll take outrageous hyperbole for [whatever]." Then you must have looked it up quickly and found this article, since you are quoting it almost verbatim, because you went from 'doesn't happen,' to, 'doesn't happen often, that's what I meant.' There's no sound reason it should happen at all, which is my point.

Yeah, I found a contradictory article. Your point? Would you rather I pull numbers out of my ass?

I also never said that it "doesn't happen". I said that the statement is ridiculous hyperbole, which it is. The statement was framed purposefully to exaggerate the risks, which is extremely low, and lower than many other procedures performed on kids (including umbilical cutting, which I cited).

hy·per·bo·le
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.
synonyms: exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, embroidery, embellishment, excess, overkill, rhetoric

Is it an exaggeration, overstatement, embellishment, overkill and rhetoric to suggest that circumcision could lead to the death or disfigurement of your child? Yes, it is, because it's statistically so unlikely that it's not even worth an in-depth study by the CDC.

Does that mean that it never happens? No. Because even the most benign, safest procedures carry the risk of permanent damage or even death due to complications, no matter what it is.

If your stance that children shouldn't be exposed to even this tiny risk due to a procedure that isn't provably medically beneficial, then sure, that's reasonable personal stance to have. However, my stance is an argument for a legislative ban, and established religious/cultural practices, should be couched on factual contexts that apply to the vast majority of boys rather than a fear-mongering tactic that is so statistically improbable that it's laughable. That's how legal procedure works. You have to show undue harm or risk, and a 0.003% chance of death due to a secondary infection (and not due to the actual procedure itself) - if the Bollinger study is accurate - doesn't do that.

Because if that's the road we want to go down as a society, there's going to be quite a lot of things that will need to be banned due to their potential to harm or kill children, including owning dogs, letting kids sleep on beds of any elevation, allowing kids to ride in cars at all, allowing kids to live in the same house as a stove, oven or electric range, allowing kids to take baths in hot water, etc.

[luc54]

To be intellectually honest, FGM has no medical basis at all and the procedure is intended to destroy the pleasurable feelings for women. It's a procedure that's intended to exert patriarcic control over female bodies, nothing more.

Circumcision, however, doesn't seek those same things. Circumcision in some cases is medically necessary, and there have been studies throughout modern medical history that argue that circumcision has medical benefits for males with very little to no loss of sensation for many.

So the two really aren't comparable given context and shouldn't be advocated together based on that context. The more solid argument is that - unless it's medically necessary - circumcision provides no provable superior benefits over leaving boys intact, and unless medical intervention is required to alleviate a condition (such as phimosis), it should be left to the boy to decide when he's able.

The way circumcision really started to spread out in the US unlike rest of Europe seems thanks to Dr. Kellog who prescribed it to "cure" boys masturbation. Masturbation was thought to cause health related issues. That's pretty much same shit as FGM. Some puritan assholes attribute masturbation as a harmful habit and try to prevent it.

[Coolthulhu]

Every civil country should ban it, for minors at least. If you, an adult, want to mutilate yourself for religious belief, by all means you should be able to do that. But forcing that on minors is absolutely barbaric.

[Krigaren]

People citing religion in support of circumcision are short-sighted. The whole point of religion was to improve the lives of people subscribed to that religion. Even practical matters like personal hygiene fall under what religion aimed to improve. These days we are very far from needing religious motivation to keep up with our personal hygiene.

WellActually.jpg, the whole point of religion was for the powerful to institute a method of control and intrinsic subjugation of populations by autocrats through fear and faith-based loyalty during periods of human history where centralized law enforcement and representational rule wasn't a thing. Ancient Egyptians and European monarchs used religion to legitimize "divine rights" of succession and to force obedience and rule over their subjects based on the idea that their power and position was granted by god, and that insurrection against them would be tantamount to renouncing god's will and thus, heresy.

Later in history the balance of power shifted from monarchs who had established their own religions to - particularly in Europe - organized religion lead by the Pope, leading to papal rule that was equivalent to an imperialistic society with the pope at the head. Post-medieval European rulers had to seek the approval of the pontiff, and their monarchies were made or broken by the pope.

While religion has had the side-effect of providing positive societal policies (do not kill, do not steal, do not lie, do not commit suicide, etc) they were all the "carrot" dangled in front of the faithful in order to maintain the power of the church. Afterall, people aren't going to follow you if the organization you lead is only doom and gloom and offers nothing of benefit to them (like, say, eternal salvation and the ability to smugly point out your neighbor's flaws).

[Techno-Druid]

Kek...
Telling a parent they can’t make decisions for their own children. Might as well just make all children wards of the state then if you really that way my friend. See the other part of my statement you quoted if you really feel that strongly about it.
MMOC-OT really should make a circumcision mega thread for all you extremists to vent in. This topic comes up at least once a month.

Peace

Parents don't own children and the latter have rights.

[Drutt]

It's literally genital mutilation. No way it should be an option on a kid unless medically required.

What people choose to do with their bodies as adults is their own business.

[Garnier Fructis]

Kek...
Telling a parent they can’t make decisions for their own children. Might as well just make all children wards of the state then if you really that way my friend. See the other part of my statement you quoted if you really feel that strongly about it.
MMOC-OT really should make a circumcision mega thread for all you extremists to vent in. This topic comes up at least once a month.

Peace

You're moving the goalposts and you know it. That parents can make decisions for their children does not mean that they can do whatever the hell they want to their children. Adding 'don't circumcise your kid' to the list of things parents can't do is not even close to making children wards of the state, and you know it.

Also, you called someone an extremist before writing peace. You're letting your real personality show again.

[zenkai]

They don't list any downsides to circumcision at all like loss of sensitivity. So I guess "webmb" would say cutting off the clitoris has no downside either.

circumcision is the same as cutting off the clitoris? Did you take high school biology by chance?

[Garnier Fructis]

circumcision is the same as cutting off the clitoris? Did you take high school biology by chance?

'Did you even take [class that doesn't actually cover the topic in question]?'

[Player Twelve]

Hater strikes again... For your info I think 75% of Americans are circumcised. This practice has no side effects but on top of it it is much cleaner. Circumcised penis helps for the hygiene, it doesn't smell bad like yours because it is open and helps to prevent some infection and fungi. Why would a civilized country put in a law that would force everyone to have a stinky penis like yours?

I don't have one but 'kay. My boyfriends doesn't stink despite him being uncircumcised because he knows to keep it clean.

[LMuhlen]

If you like it cut, you can do it when you grow up. If you don't want to go through the inconvenience, as small as it is, then it is not that big of a deal in the first place.

[Deleted]

Nice.

It shoul.d be banned for under 18s unless for medical reasons.
If someone over 18 wants to get it done for religious or cosmetic reasons then let them do it, but don't do it to kids 'just because'

- - - Updated - - -

Hater strikes again... For your info I think 75% of Americans are circumcised. This practice has no side effects but on top of it it is much cleaner. Circumcised penis helps for the hygiene, it doesn't smell bad like yours because it is open and helps to prevent some infection and fungi. Why would a civilized country put in a law that would force everyone to have a stinky penis like yours?

If you suffer from stinky penis then its your own damn fault for having poor hygeine, and its likely more than just your penis that stinks...

- - - Updated - - -

You do realize some people have to get a circumcision? What is wrong with it anyways.

It should be allowed for medical reasons of course, but doing it to kids for no reason other than religion or cosmetic is just wrong imo.

[Darsithis]

I'm all for it being banned as a child. I chose to do it as an adult, and I'm not unhappy with my choice, but I'm glad I had that choice.

[Santti]

For the love of god, ban that barbaric practice already.

Either way, I'm glad it's not part of our culture and is looked down on.

[kail]

I'm all for it being banned as a child. I chose to do it as an adult, and I'm not unhappy with my choice, but I'm glad I had that choice.

Was it for medical reasons or just because? I figured most teens and guys have a similar reaction as this: