Would JRPGs appeal more to Western audiences if they had older protagonists?

[Halyon]

I'm getting a bit tired with the eastern teen/pre-teen hero fetish indeed...

[Deleted]

Modern JRPGs are dead to me, I absolutely hate the chibi/cute style that most of them seem to be going for... or the insane designs of their clothes/hair, that's just nothing for me.

Two of the JRPGs that I play annually which had an unique style (At least for me).

http://suikoversum.de/content/sui1u2...over_japan.jpg

[Velshin]

Modern JRPGs are dead to me, I absolutely hate the chibi/cute style that most of them seem to be going for... or the insane designs of their clothes/hair, that's just nothing for me.

Two of the JRPGs that I play annually which had an unique style (At least for me).

http://suikoversum.de/content/sui1u2...over_japan.jpg

Well you can try Legend of Heroes series specially Trails of Sky series and Trails of Cold Steel. A very definition of JRPG but not super annoying cute protagonists at all.

[StrawberryZebra]

JRPGs appeal to me because they have younger, idealistic protagonists with actually morals, as opposed to the edgy, middle-aged military men who stand around talking about how Machiavellian they're willing to get for the sake of "the greater good".

I find abundent idealism to be just as wearing as going through the "ends justifiy the means" spiel. They're both cheap ways to prop up an otherwise underwhelming character.

Still, the characters at the beginning of the story aren't nearly as important as at the end.

Take the guy in my Avatar, Guilty Gear's Ky Kiske. At the beginning of the story he's a typical Lawful Good character, not stupid by any means, but a man who'll follow orders to the letter and relies on his faith to get him through what would otherwise be moral dilemmas. Throughout the series, the antagonists take note of this and use it to manipluate him, force him to doubt himself, his faith and so on. He was full of fire and zeal and held others to the same standards he held himself too, which is often the reason he ended up things ended up at violence.

At the end of the story, he's happily married with a child. Though he still sees the world mostly in black and white, but in his own words he's "discovered that little place between good and evil." He's reconciled with his most prominent rival, Sol Badguy, and has come to accept his own faults. He's very self aware about being naive and at times a little too trusting, and has characters like Chipp who look out for him because of it.

Ky is still very much a typical Lawful Good character by the end of the story too, he takes his duties as the King seriously, considering himself the protector of all his subjects and looking to work in their best interests. He's still deeply religious, generous and unfailingly respectful to his enemies. He's still worried about looking up Jam's skirt while she's trying to kick him. He's matured from being a simple caricature into a much more human character.

Why do I bring this up? Because Ky in either state is a flat character. What makes him interesting is the transition from one to the other and the steps along the way. The same is true of every character, having a solid growth arc where they change from one version of themselves to the next is how we get to know what's really at the core of their characters. Just because they start out as a generic middle aged military man doesn't mean thats where they're going to end up when the game winds to a close.

Having a younger protagonist makes it much easier to show that growth though, since they're at the very start of their story where older characters tend to be further along the curve and you have to catch the player up to speed on them first before you can start advancing their stories.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I find abundent idealism to be just as wearing as going through the "ends justifiy the means" spiel. They're both cheap ways to prop up an otherwise underwhelming character.

Still, the characters at the beginning of the story aren't nearly as important as at the end.

Take the guy in my Avatar, Guilty Gear's Ky Kiske. At the beginning of the story he's a typical Lawful Good character, not stupid by any means, but a man who'll follow orders to the letter and relies on his faith to get him through what would otherwise be moral dilemmas. Throughout the series, the antagonists take note of this and use it to manipluate him, force him to doubt himself, his faith and so on. He was full of fire and zeal and held others to the same standards he held himself too, which is often the reason he ended up things ended up at violence.

At the end of the story, he's happily married with a child. Though he still sees the world mostly in black and white, but in his own words he's "discovered that little place between good and evil." He's reconciled with his most prominent rival, Sol Badguy, and has come to accept his own faults. He's very self aware about being naive and at times a little too trusting, and has characters like Chipp who look out for him because of it.

Ky is still very much a typical Lawful Good character by the end of the story too, he takes his duties as the King seriously, considering himself the protector of all his subjects and looking to work in their best interests. He's still deeply religious, generous and unfailingly respectful to his enemies. He's still worried about looking up Jam's skirt while she's trying to kick him. He's matured from being a simple caricature into a much more human character.

Why do I bring this up? Because Ky in either state is a flat character. What makes him interesting is the transition from one to the other and the steps along the way. The same is true of every character, having a solid growth arc where they change from one version of themselves to the next is how we get to know what's really at the core of their characters. Just because they start out as a generic middle aged military man doesn't mean thats where they're going to end up when the game winds to a close.

Having a younger protagonist makes it much easier to show that growth though, since they're at the very start of their story where older characters tend to be further along the curve and you have to catch the player up to speed on them first before you can start advancing their stories.

I'd argue that a protagonist doesn't need a character arc to be interesting. Take Edward Elric from FMA:B; besides becoming a little more humble and recognizing that he is only human, he is the exact same character at the beginning of the story and the end 64 episodes later. He is one of my favorite protagonists ever.

Estelle Bright, the protagonist of Trails in the Sky, is ditzy tomboy for the 160 hour long story. Trails in the Sky has become one of my most favorite games of all time, and Estelle is one of my favorite protagonists, and I couldn't tell how she changed over the course of the story (beyond learning about what skyscrapers and escalators are).

I love them because the story gave me a reason to care. Edward felt guilty for what he did to Al and set aside his own life to make things right, to give his brother his body back. Estelle just wanted to reunite with her family, and decided to go out and find them.

It doesn't matter how a character changes over the course of a story: if I don't care about them, I'm not going to follow their story. I didn't care about the unsociable grey haired who cheats on his ladies and bangs every woman in town and telling people to go away or he'll kill them. I didn't care about the generic commander who was going to save the galaxy.

But to meet your example of a JRPG protagonist I love AND has extensive character growth, I'll examine Rean Schwarzer from The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel. (spoilers for the first game)

Spoiler: 

Estelle is - on a surface level - the most distinctive protagonist with her tomboyish tendency and humorous dialogue. Her ditzyness and saccharine nature makes her endearing. That said, it is difficult to get invested in her over the course of a long story, as the only character development she has by the end of the 150 hour trilogy is... um... yeah, I don't know either. That doesn't make her bad character; Edward Elric is one of my most favorite anime protagonists of all time, and the most notable change to that character by the end was his height. The point still stands: she offers little to think about.

Kevin showed promise; he is an adult (quite rare for an adventure RPG) who is already quite experienced, and is working as an agent of a templar-esque Church organization. The ending of SC recontextualized his previously dorky interactions as that of obfuscating stupidity, as cover for the ruthless disciple of Aidios underneath. The 3rd's opening felt like the prologue to an amazing game, following an elite inquistor as he infiltrated a lavish party while hunting down rare artifacts that are under guard by jaegers. Then story turns into a group therapy session, and Kevin's arc becomes a rather typical self-redemption arc. Of course, the entire story was ultimately the fault of a tatoo mcguffin in the end. As with Estelle, it's well executed, but I've seen the idea enough times before that I've become numb to it.

Rean feels like an actual person here. XSEED's interpretation of the character is most definitely not a blank slate. He's a multifaceted person: he allows other to speak before he gives his opinion. He embraces the dorkiness of a situation when appropriate. When pushed, he isn't Mr. Nice guy either, as he will openly show his disdain for others when his patience runs out (such as when he rebuked Fie, Crow, and Patrick). Rean also avoids the oh so common "oblivious to love" trope, as he is clearly aware of Alisa's feelings. He has a legitmate problem, as he doubts his own self-worth, a sadly prevalent sentiment among teenagers nowadays. Having been abandoned in the midst of a snow storm, he constantly asks whether or not it was his fault that he was left behind. Perhaps he was so pathetic that his parent's felt it was a waste of their time to bother carrying him anymore. He has been blessed with a comfortable life at the expense of his adopted father's reputation, with the public backlash being so great that his father outright shut the nobility out of his life. He feels like he was responsible for denying his father the respect he was done. He was cursed with a power that transforms him into an uncontrollable beast. He certainly could have accidentally killed Elise had she even as much as look at him the wrong way. He was so terrified of this, that he sought out training from one of the most renowned teacher of swordsmanship in Zemuria... only to have his training cut short. Do you know what it feels like for a teacher you look up to not only take you in, but to then turn around and say "you don't have what it takes"? Think about if from the perspective of a teenager. Rean's self-worth was already breaking, but this was the last straw.

Rean has been thinking about this for years, and it has been consuming his thoughts. The more you think about or are reminded of something, the more you believe to be true after all. He is so laser focused on his failures, that it actually takes other people's admiration of him just to get him to see how much he has accomplished... when he isn't brushing off said admirations as "nothing", that is. By the time of CS1, he has convinced himself that HE is the problem, and decides to "improve" his family's situation by removing himself from their lives. He has no aspirations of his own though, and decides to take the easy option and apply at a military academy. With Thor's being a 2 year academy, he has time to think of a career field he would like to pursue. Otherwise, he can simply just move on to the army, where he only has to do what he is told.

He was abandoned by his parent's in a blizzard, therefore he is worthless. He was a burdern to his family, so much so that his dad was chased out of the aristocratic's society. He was cursed with a possesive power that he is utterly terrified of, nearly killing his sister. He failed to pass master Ka-Fai's training and didn't learn how to tame his power. He failed to save the Jaeger in Nord. He failed to catch the ILF's plot in Heimdallr, leading to the deaths of many. He failed to catch C and Gideon. He was nearly responsible for his entire team winding up dead at Lohengrin, only saved by a passerby. He would chastize himself for having not rushed faster and saved more people at Garrelia. He failed to catch the ILF at Garrelia. He was fooled by C again and allowed the ILF to escape to further wreck havoc. He didn't pick up on Crow quickly enough. He could've saved Crow. He failed to stop Scarlet. He failed to stop Crow, who presumably went on to kill his classmates and massacre the teachers, students, and fellow people of Trista.

========================================================================================== ==

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Rean Schwarzer IS THE MAN!

I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone on this one. Rean is a lowkey kind of awesome; he doesn't strike cool poses or shill action one-liners. He's the straight man in a world on the brink of madness.

Rean feels like he was a burden to his family - his parents were derided for adopting him, to the point that they withdrew from public life - so the moment is able to leave the nest (attend Thor's Academy) he wastes no time doing so. He has basically run away, and finds a new family in Thor's. With no regrets here, he easily fits right in his new family. All is well and good... until Elise comes knocking.

He is aware of Elise's feelings, but feels she should be with "a better man". He always downplays his own efforts, like saying he was only a beginner who dropped out of Eight Leaves training and is therefore nothing special (though if you've ever played a 'Trails game before, you know that even beginner level users are worthy of serious respect).

For Rean, there is no shame in sentimental monologues and uplifting speeches. To him, it doesn't matter if they are "corny" if they are true.

Perhaps he feels like he must earn his place in the world with hard work, by pushing himself into situations well above his paygrade (read: trying to solve a terrorist plot with hardly any info to go off and a prayer that everything will turn out alright, or fighting highly coordinated terrorists with incredible power at their disposal). Or maybe he feels like he must be "punished". When praised for his efforts, he always says it was only because of the team (which is true, but ignores the real issue at hand). He also believes that he is a danger to those he loves, so he keeps them at arms length from himself.

Worst, he causes all of his loved ones grief by doing so:

- Walks out of his parent's life after they gave him unconditional love. Imagine if your child suddenly moved away and refused to talk to you after everything you did for him.
- Ignores his sister's feeling when he could at least give her a yes/no confirmation so she can move on with her life rather than scratching her head in confusion and anguish.
- Constantly worries his friends by pushing himself into dangerous situations, thereby dragging them into his plight because they feel like they have to help him out.


Rean Schwarzer lives in an uncertain world (more uncertain than ours perhaps, considering that the very foundations of the world order is being called into question) and has alot to think about. He wants to be the embodiment on the white knight - the quintessential hero - and knows very well that it isn't realistic. He strives for it anyways, because he believes in that ideal, no matter what happens. Despite his own uncertainty, he presents himself as a foundation for his friends to latch onto and confide in him. If his friends can be confident in him, than maybe he can be confident in himself, and overcome his insecurity. If he can be catalyst for a happy ending in another person's life, then maybe he can have one in his own. The audio drama (give it a read on the official website) about the off-screen trip to Ymir in between chapter 6 and the finale cemented it for me.

"The reason I want to know is so that I can truly be myself. There's a Rean Schwarzer that I should have been all this time—the one that's your brother, the one that's Mom and Dad's son, and the one that's a member of Class VII—and I intend to find him."

Wow

Cassius, Alan Richard, Olivier, Bleublanc, Crow, Jusis... they might be the "coolest" characters in the series, but when it comes to the most compelling? Estelle and Rean hands down. I'm absolutely HYPED to see where he goes in CS2!

And then CS2 happened, and his character has gotten even deeper for me, and I have all the more reason to care.

[Sorrior]

There is no RPG definition mostly because of complete degradation of that term. It was in early 2000's where term "With RPG elements" was everywhere, pretty much blurring the line. The fact that many smaller genres (like hack'slash, dungeon crawler) got absorbed into RPG genre, resulting in it becoming this shapeless blob.

Still remember when ARPG was a big deal.

And yeah sadly at the sake time many old rpg series have been turned into what are essentially action games sadly.

- - - Updated - - -

I think when you want to talk about a JRPG that did appealing to western audiences right, you have to look at a game like dragon's dogma. it's not gay weaboo shit. you have warriors, you have assassins, you have mages; none of that naruto ninja bullshit. it's like shadow of the colossus meets skyrim meets a baby version of dark souls. there are basically no hair gel cactus haircuts in the game, it's a little more real looking and was originally based on the Berserk anime.

I think that the hairstyles and generally rail-thin teens being on the cover of JRPGs is probably what doesn't sell the game to a broader audience. the men look like women or they are someone's roided up grandpa that's still juicing up at 70 years old and pumping iron and snorting 10 fat rails of white lightning every day.

one of FFXIV's selling points is probably Gladiolus Amicitia. He was a pretty boy, but he was still very manly. He wasn't a bitch either, he told Notcis off when he was acting like a pussy; the guy had a lot of grit and fire and was a fine representation of masculinity. I can't speak for others, but it's pretty rare that JRPG players can congratulate a game maker on making a very masculine and well received character. Additionally, it was disappointing that you never got to play Cor as he was made very well too.

By almost all metrics Dragons Dogma is a WRPG

And you kean FFXV not XIV right?

Though XIV has some real badasses(see raughbahn and the admiral whose name i shall not even attempt to butcher)

[Jastall]

Wouldn't change much for me. I don't like the art style or the usual themes of JRPG, on top of the fact that I prefer RPGs where the player has a lot of agency and that is in short supply indeed, in most JRPGs at least.

Not only that, but deviating from younger protagonists and such would probably alienate at least some of their core Japanese fanbase which they shouldn't do. Not every game or genre of game is made to have international appeal.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'd argue that a protagonist doesn't need a character arc to be interesting. Take Edward Elric from FMA:B; besides becoming a little more humble and recognizing that he is only human, he is the exact same character at the beginning of the story and the end 64 episodes later. He is one of my favorite protagonists ever.
-snip-
I love them because the story gave me a reason to care. Edward felt guilty for what he did to Al and set aside his own life to make things right, to give his brother his body back.

I've never watched(?) FMA:B, but from this description it sounds as though Edward made changes, of his own volition, at the outset of the story. I assume he was in some way responsible for whatever happened to his brother and did whatever it took to try make it right. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say he didn't engage in the kind of behaviour that cost his brothers body again - That being the case, those events clearly changed him.

Even if he was unsuccessful in achieving that goal, ending the series with a greater degree of humility was something those experiences taught him. It might not be a profound, sweeping change, but it was a change.

I didn't care about the unsociable grey haired who cheats on his ladies and bangs every woman in town and telling people to go away or he'll kill them. I didn't care about the generic commander who was going to save the galaxy.

Geralt and Commander Shepard aren't fully fleshed out characters. One of the staples of Western RPG's is that you get to put your own spin on the protagonist, meaning they're largely blank slates for you to project whichever version of them you wish. It doesn't matter if it's Geralt of Rivia, The Grey Warden, The Dragonborn or Godwoken. They've got no personalities or attributes beyond what the player chooses to impose on them.

Commander Shepard especially is a vehicle for the player to insert themselves into the story. S/he almost never says a line of diolog without the players input and never makes any kind of choice or decision without the player. S/He has no personality or character traits of their own at all!

Estelle Bright, the protagonist of Trails in the Sky, is ditzy tomboy for the 160 hour long story. Trails in the Sky has become one of my most favorite games of all time, and Estelle is one of my favorite protagonists, and I couldn't tell how she changed over the course of the story (beyond learning about what skyscrapers and escalators are).

I presume that Estelle is intended to be a point of view character?

Having the protagonist be someone who can ask questions, be it it a ditz who doesn't know what a Skyscraper is or a Blitzball player from another world, means they can ask questions about the world on the players behalf. It's far less jarring when they ask for an explanation for something that would be common knowledge for the characters who exist in that game world.

We're not taken out of the experience when Tidus asks questions about Summoning or Yevon in FFX. We know why he's asking and, honestly, we want to know as well. We're also not reliant on waiting for other characters to ask those questions, since we're able to talk to the NPC's to find information out for ourselves if and when we wish to. We get exposition without breaking immersion as the end result.

But to meet your example of a JRPG protagonist I love AND has extensive character growth, I'll examine Rean Schwarzer from The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel. (spoilers for the first game)

Ky Kiske is a character from Guilty Gear, a series of Fighting Games. I brought him up because he changed throughout the series from a cardboard cutout "Lawful Stupid" character into someone far more mature and relatable as he's aged. As both a Lawful Stupid idiot blindly following orders and as a quiet familly man, he's a very uninteresting character but the transition from one to the other and the journey he took to get there is what I really wanted to highlight.

Characters who begin as stock characters can very grow and evolve into very different people.

I'd argue that a protagonist doesn't need a character arc to be interesting.

A Video game protagonist doesn't strictly require one. The stories need not be about them directly for them to be involved.

Video game characters can also start out the game at the end of their story arc too. Think characters like Doomguy, Solid Snake and Kratos. They're by no means "bad" characters, but they're at the stage of their character where they've already grown into complete badasses usually less than an hour into the game. These kind of protagonists generally appear more in games based around power fantasies - And that's completely fine, but they're unsuitable as protagonists for more narrative focused games.

It's also very common for protagonists like Mario or Pac Man, heroes who serve as more mechanical representations than actual "characters", not to need a story either. Their only function is to serve as our avatar in the game.

The same is not always true of other media however. Video games can be driven by mechanics, but novels and film are driven almost entirely by character. Even if, outwardly, the protagonist remains the same it's a given that their situation in life has changed in order to trigger the events of the story. Otherwise we'd be drowning in a sea of paper backs where the characters all have normal 9-5 jobs and do nothing at all of note.

[Gandrake]

By almost all metrics Dragons Dogma is a WRPG

And you kean FFXV not XIV right?

Though XIV has some real badasses(see raughbahn and the admiral whose name i shall not even attempt to butcher)

Yeah I am just used to typing FFXIV after playing it for 2 years.

But Raubahn unfortunately falls into the category of roided up grandpa. It's like almost no effort goes into making men masculine or attractive in video games and then people wonder why everyone is a girl.

[endersblade]

I used to like them when I was younger but they don't appeal to me anymore. Leveling and gearing systems are super involved and most stories seem to be ridiculously convoluted. Also the art style is not my taste.

A sword double the size of my character? Big weird looking eyes? Over expressive animations? Just doesn't feel right to me.

....You seriously posted that on a forum dedicated to Wow?

[arandomuser]

I cant stand korean games because the only thing they seem to focus on is sex appeal of female characters, like some of those games female characters got skimpier armor at higher levels??

[ro9ue]

....You seriously posted that on a forum dedicated to Wow?

WoW's style is way different than anime...

[Nihilan]

I cant stand korean games because the only thing they seem to focus on is sex appeal of female characters, like some of those games female characters got skimpier armor at higher levels??

Sex sells and Korean game studios are not at all afraid of zeroing in on this trope and wringing it for all its worth. They definitely seem far less prudish than most other asian cultures. At least where video games are concerned.

Hypersexualization is especially prevalent in games that are supported by cosmetic microtransactions like Tera and Blade & Soul. Selling those skimpy outfits is what keeps the studios afloat.

[Deleted]

Sex sells and Korean game studios are not at all afraid of zeroing in on this trope and wringing it for all its worth. They definitely seem far less prudish than most other asian cultures. At least where video games are concerned. Hypersexualization is especially prevalent in games that are supported by cosmetic microtransactions like Tera and Blade & Soul. Selling those skimpy outfits is what keeps the studios afloat.

No wonder most Korean Games don't get an English Localization, just imagine all the outrage they would get for giving customers what they want . No no, can't have that. Korean Manhwa's are also on another level, more blunt and not afraid of showing romance and sexual relations, and actually make it not just about fan-service. Most webtoons are really cool. But again, seems like too much for those puritans in the West :P.

[Sorrior]

Yeah I am just used to typing FFXIV after playing it for 2 years.

But Raubahn unfortunately falls into the category of roided up grandpa. It's like almost no effort goes into making men masculine or attractive in video games and then people wonder why everyone is a girl.

Ajh point taken their. Ok Haurchefant? OHHH Estinien

[Gandrake]

Ajh point taken their. Ok Haurchefant? OHHH Estinien

While Estenien and Haurchefaunt were masculine by elven standards, they were no Cor or Gladiolus. Or Kratos, Master Chief, Commander Shepard, Dante, John Marston, Booker DeWitt, Prince of Persia or Sir Auron.

[Sorrior]

While Estenien and Haurchefaunt were masculine by elven standards, they were no Cor or Gladiolus. Or Kratos, Master Chief, Commander Shepard, Dante, John Marston, Booker DeWitt, Prince of Persia or Sir Auron.

Hmm stormblood villain? Manderville?

[therealbowser]

No idea if they would appeal more to western audiences, but I wouldn't mind seeing more variety in protagonists.

That said, I'm not disgusted by teenage protagonists or anything. It's not like it makes or breaks a game for me.

Aesthetics and theme is important, but in the end, even in an RPG it's going to be the gameplay that keeps me playing. There are some exceptions with phenomenally outstanding stories of course, but they are few and far between.

[Witchblade77]

There have been lots of successful RPG's from the west. Divinity Original Sin 2 came out late last year and was absolutely fantastic, if a little rushed towards the end. Kingdom Come: Deliverence is a solid game from what I've played of it, both The Witcher and Skyrim are still going strong, as is Fallout 4.

Even smaller titles like Darkest Dungeon and Undertale have been massive success stories.

If you're going to make these kind of claims, I'd really like to see what you're backing it up with.



Honestly, I'm surprised that the art style is such a deal breaker for most people. I figured it would be the gameplay, or the lack there of. JRPG's have typically been woefully lacking in gameplay, and recent attempts at bizzare hybrids of real time and turn based combat have done little to change that.

Keeping the mechanics but changing the art style gets you a game like the aforementioned Undertale. Do the people slamming the Anime art style enjoy Undertale? I'd be willing to bet the answer is "Yes" for at least some. Because, mechanically, Undertale was is JRPG. Just something to think about.

you know that actualy explains why i didn't enjoy it. mechanics and pace of jrpg games is what doesn't work for me. that said, I'm also personaly not asking for these games to change. they obviously have an audience that enjoys the very same things i do not. that's perfectly fine as long as we all get to enjoy the genres we like, without shitting all over other people's preferences /pointed look at some of the "western rpg's are shit" people in this thread.

[BadguyNotBadGuy]

not a fan of the characters who are often really god damn stupid. the storytelling is pretty weak usually. the age doesnt bother me much tbh, but i am bothered by a few tiny inconsequential details and i cant help but be annoyed by them.
like how items you can pick up on the ground are very often just some light on the ground that you press X to pick up, and not an actual item lying there. i get quite annoyed at how OTT it almost always is... stuff like that. wouldnt say the latter points are major, but they annoy me a lot :P