Battle For Azeroth: Mage Megathread (Alpha/Beta)

[The Archmage]

Hello fellow Mages,

i have been summoned to open this Megathread to discuss everything Battle for Azeroth: changes, speculations, wishes, designs.

What do you think about the changes we have seen so far? What do you want to see changing?

Let's discuss about all specs here, creating a thread for each one seems pretty redundant to me.

I will be very curious to read about all your thoughts and ideas.

As usual, keep it civil, like all you people contributing to our subforum always have been

[Champagne Supernova]

I'd like to use ray of frost at some point, and hope it moves in talent row, where it doesn't compete with lonely winter. Maybe put it on the 90 row and make bombs baseline, as they were before. Or i'd like ebonbolt to be a talent.

[Obelisk Kai]

A few generic concerns off the top of my head.

I am worried about the loss of ebonbolt. It was an excellent spell that broke up Frost's rotation and added some interesting gameplay. It wouldn't work as a talent, it would clash too much with Glacial Spike. I fear that without it, Frost is going to be doomed to Frostbolt spam.

I am also holding out for the synergy between Frozen Orb and Blizzard to be preserved, that blizzard ticks reduce the cooldown of Frozen Orb. That was amazing gameplay.

Phoenix's Flames is a talent on the same row as Flame On in fire, in some ways an impossible choice. I think Flame On is just a mandatory talent at this stage for Fire Mage gameplay to feel smooth. I think Flame On should become baseline, to be replaced by something else.

Rune of Power has a thread on these forums, the fact it isn't gone in the very first alpha builds is concerning.

I'm not a great fan of Incanter's Flow either. A passive yet, but an annoying metronome of a talent I have to keep my eye in order to maximise DPS. A reward for high skilled gameplay? Probably. Fun? Definitely not.

In fact the most fun talent on the row, the visually impressive and powerful feeling Mirror Images, is always the weaker option on this row. It would be nice if this was a far more viable option in BFA. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that thinks Mirror Images should go back to a baseline spell. As a baseline spell, MI was weak and functioned as an aggro drop (something invisibility is much better at). It is better off as a talent with some punch.

And finally, Invisibility. I get that Greater Invisibility is Arcane's escape move, but the cooldown for fire and frost is much too long and the fade time is redundant. Could the cd for baseline Invisibility be lowered a bit and the fade removed to make it instant? The spell might be usable for fire and frost then.

[davesignal]

I think the real problem is you think you need to keep track of Incanter's Flow, a DPS gain so marginal as to be nigh imperceptible even if your RNG and personal play is amazingly on point.

I personally find Rune of Power fun; it rewards encounter knowledge, proper positioning, and I like the visual of stamping an arcane rune on the ground before I hit AP and nuke something from orbit. Maybe it's different for Frost and Fire, but I feel like it melds perfectly with Arcane Power and the Arcane kit in general: if you're secure enough in your position to cast AP and start your burn phase, you're secure enough to use Rune of Power. If all else fails, Blink off it and use Displacement to return to it ASAP. It just makes sense in Arcane's kit.

That being said, one thing I will agree with is that Mirror Image is a very iconic, cool visual and I wouldn't really lose any sleep if that spell was buffed to the point that it finally became dominant on the row for Arcane.

[Deleted]

I am torn. I hope we get more changes than what shown atm - to spicy it up, but on the other hand I think Arcane/Fire plays great atm.

Frost is pretty stale tho, and will be even moreso with the loss of Ebonbolt.

[The Archmage]

I have almost never played Frost during Legion, therefore i have little to say about the spec. It has been pretty dominant throughout the whole expansion, but people always called it stale and too much proc dependant, so i can see why the removal of Ebonbolt (which guarantees a proc and adds into the gameplay) can be seen as an issue. I will be curious to see what will be done about that.

Fire, imho, has a whole chapter of improvements that can be done. Namely, talents. Cinderstorm can be reworked so that it does not pull mobs in China while standing in New York and so that it focuses all cinders on your target. It could also guarantee an Heating Up or a whole Hot Streak, so that it melds better into the rotation, and i would increase its cd to 30 secs: this will greatly improve its viability as a competitive talent in that tier.
As @Obelisk Kai said, Phoenix Flames and Flame On in the same row poses a problem that cannot be ignored during design. Being forced into a decision between 2 things that feel both mandatory is not a good feeling. Flame On should become baseline and in its place it would be better to have a niche talent that you can use occasionally, leaving Phoenix Flames as the obvious choice. It made the spec so much better than sticking to it would be most beneficial.

Arcane has been my go to, and i like how it works. Mechanically, i think they should make it so Mastery becomes more relevant. Savant revolves around many aspects of the spec's core, damage on charges aswell as mana regeneration (which should be the most important part of it): yet, it has become less relevant the more gear we got to the point where it is the worst stat by quite some margin, which makes very little sense. I am glad to see that they already changed one aspect that needed to, Arcane Missiles procs. They are so important to our burst phases that, expecially in the opener, bad rng would cause our mightiest burst (due to pre-pot, trinket procs and usually BL) to feel much less potent that it should. By making Missiles castable at will we can work around mana consumption or simply deem it worthy and just nuclearize our victim, which will be awsome (although i am pretty concerned into the PvP balancing of a completely on demand damage burst like this).
Like i have been lenghtly discussing before, AoE should be finally disconnected by its melee reliance, because it's an old system that will always mess with the spec's viability at some point, regardless of how much or how importantly. A talent that makes Missiles splash their damage on everyone around our target (maybe replacing that useless Unstable Magic), a rework of Nether Tempest so that it pulses AoE when struck (which, again, would synergize pretty well with our on demand Missiles) or a new channeled spell that creates a sort of static arcane orb on the target or in a targeted area that pulses damage on everyone and gives a charge each time it deals damage (which would be definetly fitting for Arcane, since basically no spec bases their AoE on a proper channeled spell anymore). There are many possibilities.

In general, i think Mages need a pretty hefty rework of their talents. Rune of Power should be hacked from the game, its code deleted, destroyed, infected and sent to hell alongside Windows Vista. Incanter's Flow, which is often ignored thanks to its proximity to the devil, should follow him to hell. It is the most boring and less sense making talent in the game: oh, look, my spells do more damage now! And now they do less damage. And now they do more again!. Why? What's the logic behind it? Just bake its damage into the class and move along. Next in line is Unstable Magic. Too unreliable to have any value in AoE scenarios, which leaves it as a ST increase only because nothing else does in that same raw. Zero sense. Scrap it, add some other stuff.
I am not a huge fan of Mirror Images as a dps cd. I think they are better suited for the content where people already make use of them, which is Solo/World content, where the Mage usually has a harder time than most other classes and it could use a nice boost. Therefore, i would expand on the theme: drop the images and call it "Illusory Guardian", a nice good tanking pet on a 2 minutes cd that lasts for 40 seconds. It would make a world of difference with Elite killing and in many other aspects of the game where us Mages feel mainly useless.

[Obelisk Kai]

I have almost never played Frost during Legion, therefore i have little to say about the spec. It has been pretty dominant throughout the whole expansion, but people always called it stale and too much proc dependant, so i can see why the removal of Ebonbolt (which guarantees a proc and adds into the gameplay) can be seen as an issue. I will be curious to see what will be done about that.

Fire, imho, has a whole chapter of improvements that can be done. Namely, talents. Cinderstorm can be reworked so that it does not pull mobs in China while standing in New York and so that it focuses all cinders on your target. It could also guarantee an Heating Up or a whole Hot Streak, so that it melds better into the rotation, and i would increase its cd to 30 secs: this will greatly improve its viability as a competitive talent in that tier.
As @Obelisk Kai said, Phoenix Flames and Flame On in the same row poses a problem that cannot be ignored during design. Being forced into a decision between 2 things that feel both mandatory is not a good feeling. Flame On should become baseline and in its place it would be better to have a niche talent that you can use occasionally, leaving Phoenix Flames as the obvious choice. It made the spec so much better than sticking to it would be most beneficial.

Arcane has been my go to, and i like how it works. Mechanically, i think they should make it so Mastery becomes more relevant. Savant revolves around many aspects of the spec's core, damage on charges aswell as mana regeneration (which should be the most important part of it): yet, it has become less relevant the more gear we got to the point where it is the worst stat by quite some margin, which makes very little sense. I am glad to see that they already changed one aspect that needed to, Arcane Missiles procs. They are so important to our burst phases that, expecially in the opener, bad rng would cause our mightiest burst (due to pre-pot, trinket procs and usually BL) to feel much less potent that it should. By making Missiles castable at will we can work around mana consumption or simply deem it worthy and just nuclearize our victim, which will be awsome (although i am pretty concerned into the PvP balancing of a completely on demand damage burst like this).
Like i have been lenghtly discussing before, AoE should be finally disconnected by its melee reliance, because it's an old system that will always mess with the spec's viability at some point, regardless of how much or how importantly. A talent that makes Missiles splash their damage on everyone around our target (maybe replacing that useless Unstable Magic), a rework of Nether Tempest so that it pulses AoE when struck (which, again, would synergize pretty well with our on demand Missiles) or a new channeled spell that creates a sort of static arcane orb on the target or in a targeted area that pulses damage on everyone and gives a charge each time it deals damage (which would be definetly fitting for Arcane, since basically no spec bases their AoE on a proper channeled spell anymore). There are many possibilities.

In general, i think Mages need a pretty hefty rework of their talents. Rune of Power should be hacked from the game, its code deleted, destroyed, infected and sent to hell alongside Windows Vista. Incanter's Flow, which is often ignored thanks to its proximity to the devil, should follow him to hell. It is the most boring and less sense making talent in the game: oh, look, my spells do more damage now! And now they do less damage. And now they do more again!. Why? What's the logic behind it? Just bake its damage into the class and move along. Next in line is Unstable Magic. Too unreliable to have any value in AoE scenarios, which leaves it as a ST increase only because nothing else does in that same raw. Zero sense. Scrap it, add some other stuff.
I am not a huge fan of Mirror Images as a dps cd. I think they are better suited for the content where people already make use of them, which is Solo/World content, where the Mage usually has a harder time than most other classes and it could use a nice boost. Therefore, i would expand on the theme: drop the images and call it "Illusory Guardian", a nice good tanking pet on a 2 minutes cd that lasts for 40 seconds. It would make a world of difference with Elite killing and in many other aspects of the game where us Mages feel mainly useless.

I agree on most things written here, but I have to disagree on Mirror Images.

Mirror Images suffers from a tuning problem, it is simply underpowered compared to the other options on the row. Of course, I have a deep and long lasting hatred regarding the other options on the row. The issues with Rune of Power are well documented of course. The problem with Incanter's Flow, that is a tremendously boring passive you are probably better to ignore rather than allow yourself to be irritated trying to manage it metronomic gamplay gets less discussion. Both should be nuked.

Compared to those, Mirror Images is thematically distinctive and visually exciting. I LOVE it when Mirror Images comes out as the go to talent for my chosen Mage spec. Give it enough of a buff and Mages will be happy to chose it as an option. It even has uses in the open world as you pointed for soloing content. I don't think we should get a tanking pet as you suggest. Blizzard would instantly consider that a Warlock perk and given they thought for a very long time Mages and Warlocks were too close I just don't see it happening.

P.S Does anyone else think Cinderstorm and Firestarter need to be tossed out too along with IF and ROP?

[SFBayGamer]

The MAIN problem right now with Fire is the "Sophie's Choice" between Flame on And PF.

Make one baseline and Fire becomes much less of a trainwreck going forward.

[davesignal]

The MAIN problem right now with Fire is the "Sophie's Choice" between Flame on And PF.

Make one baseline and Fire becomes much less of a trainwreck going forward.

Hate to be the one to tell you, dude, but that's sort of choice is exactly what Blizzard wants to create more of. In essence, it's a good thing: it means both talents are valuable and desirable.

The alternative is a row where one talent is unquestionably the best and nobody ever takes the other two-- like, say, the first row of Arcane talents (that Blizzard is now revamping to present real choice).

[Obelisk Kai]

Hate to be the one to tell you, dude, but that's sort of choice is exactly what Blizzard wants to create more of. In essence, it's a good thing: it means both talents are valuable and desirable.

The alternative is a row where one talent is unquestionably the best and nobody ever takes the other two-- like, say, the first row of Arcane talents (that Blizzard is now revamping to present real choice).

Whilst that is their intent, this particular choice is too much. It is a choice between something I consider mandatory and something I consider essential for the spec.

Flame On, the mandatory talent, is ALWAYS the right choice even over the essential PF.

[Swizzle]

Hate to be the one to tell you, dude, but that's sort of choice is exactly what Blizzard wants to create more of. In essence, it's a good thing: it means both talents are valuable and desirable.

The alternative is a row where one talent is unquestionably the best and nobody ever takes the other two-- like, say, the first row of Arcane talents (that Blizzard is now revamping to present real choice).

I don't think their intention is to have two options which are required for a spec to function to go against each other. With the current list of changes we have for BfA, Fire looks like it's going to be a lot more clunky moving forward, gaining literally nothing and losing a lot of spec synergy.

[Armourboy]

One of either Flame on or PF needs to be baseline, otherwise the spec will lose much of its feel, which should be something they are aiming for from all specs.

I'd be fine with Unstable Magic, IF and RoP being chopped off and replaced. Someone brought up Firestarter, and while it isn't sexy at max level I have discovered it is very useful for leveling at low levels. Being able to guarantee a Pyro on a mob pull is pretty awesome when crit levels are low.

[Champagne Supernova]

I want jaina's new spell, in pvp talents. That ice wall though.

[The Archmage]

I want jaina's new spell, in pvp talents. That ice wall though.

What is Jaina's new spell btw?

P.S Does anyone else think Cinderstorm and Firestarter need to be tossed out too along with IF and ROP?

Cinderstorm has been so clunky that pretty much all mages have used only when it was too good to pass up, and then immediately dropped it as soon as it was even remotely acceptable to do so. Therefore, if it stays it needs to be reworked so that its use becomes handier and more intuitive, otherwise it will remain amongst the "dead" talents, just a spot filler (which is never a good thing in general, but even worse considering it's in our capstone row).

I don't mind Firestarter. It provides some interesting choices, and it has been far from a useless option in ToS tier. In addition, it provides excellent outdoor one shots, since all spells will crit on full health mobs and both Pyroblast and Fireball land together and gain its benefit, thus generate another Hot Streak. You basically endlessly chain Fireball+Pyroblast combos that tend to kill pretty much anything even at potentially 0% crit rating, which makes it awsome for leveling. For a first talent row, i think its niche is quite solid.

[Champagne Supernova]

What is Jaina's new spell btw?



Cinderstorm has been so clunky that pretty much all mages have used only when it was too good to pass up, and then immediately dropped it as soon as it was even remotely acceptable to do so. Therefore, if it stays it needs to be reworked so that its use becomes handier and more intuitive, otherwise it will remain amongst the "dead" talents, just a spot filler (which is never a good thing in general, but even worse considering it's in our capstone row).

I don't mind Firestarter. It provides some interesting choices, and it has been far from a useless option in ToS tier. In addition, it provides excellent outdoor one shots, since all spells will crit on full health mobs and both Pyroblast and Fireball land together and gain its benefit, thus generate another Hot Streak. You basically endlessly chain Fireball+Pyroblast combos that tend to kill pretty much anything even at potentially 0% crit rating, which makes it awsome for leveling. For a first talent row, i think its niche is quite solid.

Sort sort of Ice wall, she also has some Ice AoE thing, but i would like a downsized ice wall as a pvp talent. Think of it like a rogue's smoke bomb blocking line of sight, and choke points. Kinda like Ymir's wall of ice if you've played smite before.

[Swizzle]

Sort sort of Ice wall, she also has some Ice AoE thing, but i would like a downsized ice wall as a pvp talent. Think of it like a rogue's smoke bomb blocking line of sight, and choke points. Kinda like Ymir's wall of ice if you've played smite before.

Jaina in that scenario is just Mei from Overwatch, and I'd rather that cancer stay there.

[Obelisk Kai]

What is Jaina's new spell btw?

I am religiously avoiding spoilers in the lore forums, and as long as MMO doesn't post an image of a t-shirt again with the ending to BFA as a caption on the front page without spoiler tags... I should be good going into the next expansion if I am careful.

But from the description, this sort of sounds like Wall of Fog, the terrible first iteration of ring of frost blizzard created in the WOTLK beta and which they changed after everyone laughed at it's awfulness.

On the other hand, it could be a physical ice wall players can't get through (this sounds far likelier) and that won't be added because that is not how physics in pvp works. Player's cannot create physical walls.

Cinderstorm has been so clunky that pretty much all mages have used only when it was too good to pass up, and then immediately dropped it as soon as it was even remotely acceptable to do so. Therefore, if it stays it needs to be reworked so that its use becomes handier and more intuitive, otherwise it will remain amongst the "dead" talents, just a spot filler (which is never a good thing in general, but even worse considering it's in our capstone row).

I don't mind Firestarter. It provides some interesting choices, and it has been far from a useless option in ToS tier. In addition, it provides excellent outdoor one shots, since all spells will crit on full health mobs and both Pyroblast and Fireball land together and gain its benefit, thus generate another Hot Streak. You basically endlessly chain Fireball+Pyroblast combos that tend to kill pretty much anything even at potentially 0% crit rating, which makes it awsome for leveling. For a first talent row, i think its niche is quite solid.

On Firestarter, I concede your point. On the other hand I think it would be better if it was restructured to give Fire Mages an execute phase, that used to be something the spec had and which the bracers give Fire Mages right now. Maybe turn Firestarter into a talented version of the bracers? Or maybe something like the new hunter talent with a damage increase at start and then another boost at the end.

But Cinderstorm should be nuked. Clunky and barely usable, absolutely no fun at all.

[Swizzle]

I'm starting to get a little concerned with the lack of changes to any of the specs so far. Fire and Frost are losing the cores of what made their specs work and so far we're not seeing much change. I get that we don't need overhauls (arguably) like some other specs, but Mages have literally the least changes in each build, and the ones that do come through are either tuning nerfs or wording changes. I dunno, my hope is that we aren't only playable with the "right" Azerite gear. Legion was bad enough with leggo requirements.

[kheath812]

frost is inherently poorly designed, and losing ebonbolt will only make the spec clunkier and more boring than it already is.

a spec shouldnt go 20 casts without getting any procs, then when it does get procs, you have to munch them often. its just terrible. losing ebonbolt is just the icing on top of the crap cake.

[davesignal]

I'm starting to get a little concerned with the lack of changes to any of the specs so far.

Don't. It's F&F alpha. Beta is when you should start worrying.