Burning of Teldressil Broadcast Text (Spoiler!!!)

[Shampro]

Speaking of Before the Storm, since the book is apperantly half Sylvanas half Anduin. I seriously hope they develop the Alliance narrative into something more interesting and with more facets, something that demostrates mistakes that help Anduin grow over time. So far, it's been all ''I'm perfect and any type of mishap is thrown under the rug''. Characters that make mistakes or are more ''grounded'' are better to relate to or to read, and I seriously hope the Alliance portion of BTS isn't a boring one dimentional slug.

After all this part of the book's summary

In Before the Storm, Anduin Wrynn, king of Stormwind, and Sylvanas Windrunner, warchief of the Horde, are new to their positions of power, both ascending before they were truly prepared.

and It would be awful if the whole thing is just Anduin being literally perfect and people being fine with it, when it goes completely against what the book would is hinting at, when it comes to character development.

[Ash123]

After all this part of the book's summary and It would be awful if the whole thing is just Anduin being literally perfect and people being fine with it, when it goes completely against what the book would is hinting at, when it comes to character development.

I predict that Aduin's development would follow the following track:

Anduin: I will do everything to ensure peace no matter the cost.
Jaina & Greymane: How can you be so naive? Horde is barbaric and immoral, and their Warchief is 100% evil!!
Anduin: I learn from my mistake. As a King I have to go to war since this is the only way to ensure the love and peace for everyone!
Jaina & Greymane: You got it! Now you are the perfect king of Alliance.

To be honest, this could be even worse than "being literally perfect and people being fine with it".

Aduin is the kind of character that is designed to be perfect, and his development is all about how to move from "childish perfection" into "mature perfection". That is the reason why I think his plot-line is doomed to be boring, no matter who is the writer.

- - - Updated - - -

My guess is that Before the Storm may serve to shape Sylvanas' vision of the Horde in a similar way Shadows of the Horde did with Vol'jin, even though I'm not entirely sure of which kind of events the book will handle, at this point.

I think that the desolate council would play a key role in moving Sylvanas's affection from Forsaken only to Horde at large.

And after all, despite of being very selfish, Sylvanas has an interesting character that people tend to ignore: she always does her best to take care of the group under her protection, no matter how she might rationalize it. She did it for the High Elves, and did it again for the forsaken.

With this in regard, it could actually be very simple to handle Sylvanas: you only need to point a group of people to her and convince her somehow that the welfare of that group is now her responsibility. She will then do the job and eventually do it well.

Vol'jin's wish is the first step to convince her that the Horde is the group she needs to take care. Desolate council will be another chain in the process and I hope we might see more in the coming novel.

[Aucald]

The reason why this argument is deeply flawed resides in the way Vol'jin acts during the whole cinematic regarding Sylvanas' ascension to power. Nothing of what he says or the mere tone in which he says it denotes the feeling of someone forced by circumstances or blackmailed to do something. "The spirits granted me clarity" implies newfound enlightenment, a greater understanding received by the vision of future events.

More importantly, the speaking about visions and spirits only came next to Vol'jin genuinely praising Sylvanas for what she did at the Broken Shore, right after likewise genuinely admitting that he never trusted her before. The fact that immediately after that Vol'jin speaks about the Loa, a vision of the future and the necessity for Sylvanas to "step out of the shadows" and take the mantle of Warchief strongly implies that Vol'jin's apparent change of mind regarding Sylvanas came from a combination of what he saw of her in the present (the Broken Shore event) and what he witnessed in his vision, alongside the suggestion of the Loa themselves.

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree - the first time I watched the cut-scene I felt much the same way. But on subsequent views I've begun to feel something decidedly "off" about the way Vol'jin speaks, and specially the way he says that the spirits have granted him clarity. I begun to detect definite notes of sadness to it, or perhaps of regret - a feeling that what he's doing is being done out of a sense of obligation or requirement. "Clarity" does indeed imply enlightenment or epiphany, unless it's being used to mask something else he either can't or won't related to the assembled. A vision of the future that, as he says, "many will not understand." The implication of this seems to be about his choice of Sylvanas to succeed him, but perhaps this isn't all he meant.

For the latter, to tie it in with the above, Vol'jin would need to establish Sylvanas' credentials to lead - her worthiness to take on the mantle. Perhaps there's an element even of justifying it to himself as well as to the assembled other leaders who are just as disinclined to trust her as he was himself. It's not in the spirit of dishonesty either - Sylvanas did truly save the Horde at the Broken Shore by organizing their retreat, but to go from clenched-teeth teammate to Warchief in a single bound seems like a bridge too far.

Last but not least, Vol'jin speaks about a "last act of duty to ensure that the Horde stays strong" right before the cinematic begins. That's quite outright disprove the idea that Vol'jin's decision is strictly related to Zandalar and nothing about the Horde.

So yeah, Bwomsamdi's prophesying most likely referred to Vol'jin's excruciating death on the top of his throne, as the Loa mentioned a "burden of victory" grinding Vol'jin to dust, a metaphor easily aligning with the slow, yet relentless action of the Fel poison destroying his body from within and the later cremation of that body.

I don't think the decision would be solely about Zandalar or the Loa, though - if it were I doubt Vol'jin could be persuaded, or even blackmailed, to acceding to the request. There's no doubt an element of trade in the deal. Vol'jin allows Sylvanas to ascend which will ultimately aid the Loa and safeguard them from the threat to come (G'huun), and in exchange the Loa extends their blessings onto the Horde proper instead of just their favored Zandalari. Above and beyond that, this act would ultimately achieve something Vol'jin and Sen'jin seem to have long worked for - it would unify the Zandalari with the Horde, bridging the divide that's existed between their tribes since time immemorial. *That* would be a sacrifice worthy enough to finally bring Vol'jin to the proverbial table with the Loa.

[azshanna]

I really hope malfurion won't make it. Seeing him burn with that goddamn tree would be glorious. And tyrandes reaction would be even better.

i hope sylvanas hand cuff both tyrande and malfurian to the tree and burn them alive !

[Dagoth Ur]

Aduin is the kind of character that is designed to be perfect, and his development is all about how to move from "childish perfection" into "mature perfection". That is the reason why I think his plot-line is doomed to be boring, no matter who is the writer.

Agreed. I could swallow Anduin if his arc went from childish naivette/idealism to matured/battle hardend realist. But so far he has this unberable "prince that was promised" aura about him that I really dislike. I deslike it mainly because Alliance having a boy king has toooons of potential for some interesting in-faction stories, but so far it doesn't look like they've planned something along those lines.

Saying that, it's probably better to wait and see what the new book will have in store for Anduin before making final judgements.

[Shampro]

Agreed. I could swallow Anduin if his arc went from childish naivette/idealism to matured/battle hardend realist. But so far he has this unberable "prince that was promised" aura about him that I really dislike. I deslike it mainly because Alliance having a boy king has toooons of potential for some interesting in-faction stories, but so far it doesn't look like they've planned something along those lines.

Saying that, it's probably better to wait and see what the new book will have in store for Anduin before making final judgements.

Even characters that are designed to be perfection incarnate and ''I'm always right'' as percieved, can make mistakes and can have disagreements with thier peers, after all, like I said, the point of the book is that they were entrusted in those positions suddently. To not exploit this would be pants on head god awful and we should be not be encouraging it.

An ''old'' example now, if Anduin would've have let Garrosh eat the poisoned food that Vereesa and Sylvanas had for him in Warcrimes, the Iron Horde would have never happened like it did. Why can't it be reflected as how he feels like? Does he regret it? Does he think he made the wrong choice? maybe someone else criticize him for it?

We know that Anduin has the literal ultimate plot armor, that doesn't mean that they can't explore actual character development and pitfalls that at some point help better the story and to pick himself up. Having it always be ''right'' and everyone agree with everything he does would literally kill any chance for the Alliance narrative to be even remotely interesting.

[Dagoth Ur]

Even characters that are designed to be perfection incarnate and ''I'm always right'' as percieved, can make mistakes and can have disagreements with thier peers, after all, like I said, the point of the book is that they were entrusted in those positions suddently. To not exploit this would be pants on head god awful and we should be not be encouraging it.

An ''old'' example now, if Anduin would've have let Garrosh eat the poisoned food that Vereesa and Sylvanas had for him in Warcrimes, the Iron Horde would have never happened like it did. Why can't it be reflected as how he feels like? Does he regret it? Does he think he made the wrong choice? maybe someone else criticize him for it?

We know that Anduin has the literal ultimate plot armor, that doesn't mean that they can't explore actual character development and pitfalls that at some point help better the story and to pick himself up. Having it always be ''right'' and everyone agree with everything he does would literally kill any chance for the Alliance narrative to be even remotely interesting.

Yeah I agree. This is what I would like to see with this whole Saurfang situation too. Would be interesting to see other leaders voicing their disapproval of how Anduin's being too nice with Saurfang, who's probably responsible for deaths of handful Alliance soldiers in battle for Undercity alone. Anduin presents a perfect opportunity to show us how good king is being made, by learning from his mistakes and realizing how world is not always sunshine and rainbows. This whole Light Chosen One thingie he has going on is probably the worst path they could take him on imo.

[Zulkhan]

Aduin is the kind of character that is designed to be perfect, and his development is all about how to move from "childish perfection" into "mature perfection". That is the reason why I think his plot-line is doomed to be boring, no matter who is the writer.

Those infamous "three lies" are my last hope to not see everyone fall beneath Anduin's messianic umbrella. I couldn't swallow an entire expansion filled with Anduin teaching lessons of peace and honor among the misbegotten peoples of Azeroth.

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree - the first time I watched the cut-scene I felt much the same way. But on subsequent views I've begun to feel something decidedly "off" about the way Vol'jin speaks, and specially the way he says that the spirits have granted him clarity. I begun to detect definite notes of sadness to it, or perhaps of regret - a feeling that what he's doing is being done out of a sense of obligation or requirement. "Clarity" does indeed imply enlightenment or epiphany, unless it's being used to mask something else he either can't or won't related to the assembled. A vision of the future that, as he says, "many will not understand." The implication of this seems to be about his choice of Sylvanas to succeed him, but perhaps this isn't all he meant.

For the latter, to tie it in with the above, Vol'jin would need to establish Sylvanas' credentials to lead - her worthiness to take on the mantle. Perhaps there's an element even of justifying it to himself as well as to the assembled other leaders who are just as disinclined to trust her as he was himself. It's not in the spirit of dishonesty either - Sylvanas did truly save the Horde at the Broken Shore by organizing their retreat, but to go from clenched-teeth teammate to Warchief in a single bound seems like a bridge too far.

Honestly a lot of this sounds a bit more like projection than anything else, like you have doubts about Sylvanas given the revealed unfolding of the events and try to somehow rationalize those doubts into something more concrete. This is a widespread vice and it's tied to the non-acceptance of Sylvanas as Warchief, as something that simply shouldn't happen. And indeed, more people are joining that party the more questionable her actions apparently look.

I've watched that cinematic many times at this point and I was never able to catch anything of what you described. Obligation in the sense of borderline "blackmail", sadness and regret are things I just can't get from Vol'jin or the whole aura around the cinematic. Obligation in the sense of fulfilling a necessary duty, maybe, that surely fits but apart that all I felt was a guy struggling to do what he had to do despite a Fel poison eating him from the inside. Vol'jin is a pretty blunt character and blunt he has been in judging Sylvanas, be it the bad and the good. I doubt he needed to convince himself of what he was saying and surely getting the so called "clarity" of the Loa obviously helped to close the bridge you felt to be "too far" to close otherwise.

I don't think the decision would be solely about Zandalar or the Loa, though - if it were I doubt Vol'jin could be persuaded, or even blackmailed, to acceding to the request. There's no doubt an element of trade in the deal. Vol'jin allows Sylvanas to ascend which will ultimately aid the Loa and safeguard them from the threat to come (G'huun), and in exchange the Loa extends their blessings onto the Horde proper instead of just their favored Zandalari. Above and beyond that, this act would ultimately achieve something Vol'jin and Sen'jin seem to have long worked for - it would unify the Zandalari with the Horde, bridging the divide that's existed between their tribes since time immemorial. *That* would be a sacrifice worthy enough to finally bring Vol'jin to the proverbial table with the Loa.

What remains unconvincing of this argument is this apparent necessity of appointing Sylvanas to reach Zandalar, which sounds like a stretch to me. Surely, reaching Zandalar can be considered a "collateral effect" of the war but is way too casual and such an event could have happened in all other kind of ways with or without Sylvanas. I just don't see Sylvanas that important in this whole scheme to justify her ascenscion to Warchief and the subsequent rekindling of the flames of war, if all of this "collateral damage" is truly nothing more than that.

[Aucald]

Honestly a lot of this sounds a bit more like projection than anything else, like you have doubts about Sylvanas given the revealed unfolding of the events and try to somehow rationalize those doubts into something more concrete. This is a widespread vice and it's tied to the non-acceptance of Sylvanas as Warchief, as something that simply shouldn't happen. And indeed, more people are joining that party the more questionable her actions apparently look.

Actually my lack of trust here is more in the Loa themselves than Sylvanas - in that the Loa are acting out of a sense of protectionism and willing to allow a world war if it fits their agenda. Of the possible candidates to succeed Vol'jin only Sylvanas has the requisite history and temperament that would lend itself to conflict on this scale, and whether you trust, distrust, like, or dislike Sylvanas she will still at the end of the day be Sylvanas. A Warchief Baine would likely sue for peace, Saurfang or Lor'themar would likely opt not to escalate tensions but would have the Horde remain aloof and closed off, Rokhan would more or less continue Vol'jin's policies, and Gallywix is uninterested in conflict unless it is personally profitable to him. Ji, if you even consider him a candidate, would probably also likely press for peace or even complete reconciliation in the Pandaren fashion. Sylvanas is the Loa's only choice that could bring events to where they need to be in this particular scenario. In a perverse sense you could say that Sylvanas here is also ultimately being used in this scenario.

I've watched that cinematic many times at this point and I was never able to catch anything of what you described. Obligation in the sense of borderline "blackmail", sadness and regret are things I just can't get from Vol'jin or the whole aura around the cinematic. Obligation in the sense of fulfilling a necessary duty, maybe, that surely fits but apart that all I felt was a guy struggling to do what he had to do despite a Fel poison eating him from the inside. Vol'jin is a pretty blunt character and blunt he has been in judging Sylvanas, be it the bad and the good. I doubt he needed to convince himself of what he was saying and surely getting the so called "clarity" of the Loa obviously helped to close the bridge you felt to be "too far" to close otherwise.

In an interesting turn, I'd recently re-read "Shadows of the Horde" as I found myself dipping into it a few times in other posts - I'd read so many different passages I just decided to re-read it cover to cover for the fun of it. And it wasn't until the book and Vol'jin's character from it where fresh in my mind that I saw the Legion cut-scene in this way. While I know he's dying painfully and slowly in the cut-scene there's an air of fatalistic resignation that goes beyond that, I felt; as if it were not only the death of the flesh but also the death of an ideal, which doesn't necessarily fit in with a more upbeat (for the given context) interpretation. Even while wounded and dying from a poisoned blade in "Shadows of the Horde" Vol'jin fought against it - hanging onto life for as long as he could despite the unlikeliness of aid. Here Vol'jin seems resigned but not at peace, and the fact that his shade seems to linger (if Thrall's role in BfA is to be what it seems) also speaks for a distinct quality of unrest. I guess we'll see, though.

What remains unconvincing of this argument is this apparent necessity of appointing Sylvanas to reach Zandalar, which sounds like a stretch to me. Surely, reaching Zandalar can be considered a "collateral effect" of the war but is way too casual and such an event could have happened in all other kind of ways with or without Sylvanas. I just don't see Sylvanas that important in this whole scheme to justify her ascenscion to Warchief and the subsequent rekindling of the flames of war, if all of this "collateral damage" is truly nothing more than that.

I see this as somewhat turnkey, myself. The Loa know of Sylvanas' needs - to be secure, to build a bulwark against her dark fate in the Shadowlands or the Void. The Loa know that her fear is a tool, and that of the major Horde leaders only she possesses the kind of fear that they can easily use or predict. All that's needed is a bit of a push, a hint of a threat, and Sylvanas can be depended upon to do what's in her current nature - the grow the bulwark around her to be impenetrable to even Alliance aggression. To do that she will of course need allies to grow the ranks of her Horde, allies like the Nightborne and the Highmountain, and the Zandalari too with their powerful navy and ancient ties to beings who have power over life and death (and wouldn't it also be great to have a Loa of Death like Bwonsamdi in your debt). A leads to B, which leads ineluctably to C.

The Loa as a group, too, are shortsighted enough (and self-involved enough) to risk the very world of Azeroth if it means their own continuance - which fits in perfectly with the overarching themes of BfA as feckless conflict in the face of wounded and dying world.

[LazarusLong]

Except they are international law by default. They are piece of law between two nations (or above). What do you call it? And where on Earth did you get that date from? League of Nations wasn't a result of international law? Hague Convention of 1899 was not international law? Geneva Convention of 1864 was not international law?

The Westphalian treaties of 1648 is probably were it all started in the western world.

[Mehrunes]

Even characters that are designed to be perfection incarnate and ''I'm always right'' as percieved, can make mistakes and can have disagreements with thier peers, after all, like I said, the point of the book is that they were entrusted in those positions suddently. To not exploit this would be pants on head god awful and we should be not be encouraging it.

It's not like Blizzard needs encouragement to make god-awful decisions. It comes to them as naturally as breathing.

Those infamous "three lies" are my last hope to not see everyone fall beneath Anduin's messianic umbrella. I couldn't swallow an entire expansion filled with Anduin teaching lessons of peace and honor among the misbegotten peoples of Azeroth.

Unless Blizzard goes the Daenerys route where Anduin gets more and more paranoid after learning about the three lies, it's just going to end with the tale of him rising above the vile schemes of his enemies, for the glory of the Light.

I've watched that cinematic many times at this point and I was never able to catch anything of what you described. Obligation in the sense of borderline "blackmail", sadness and regret are things I just can't get from Vol'jin or the whole aura around the cinematic. Obligation in the sense of fulfilling a necessary duty, maybe, that surely fits but apart that all I felt was a guy struggling to do what he had to do despite a Fel poison eating him from the inside. Vol'jin is a pretty blunt character and blunt he has been in judging Sylvanas, be it the bad and the good. I doubt he needed to convince himself of what he was saying and surely getting the so called "clarity" of the Loa obviously helped to close the bridge you felt to be "too far" to close otherwise.

Yeah, if anything Vol'jin seems to be at peace. Even though he's in pain his voice is rather calm. As you said, he talks about the Horde at the start. And while "many will not understand", he did. He made his last act of service in

What remains unconvincing of this argument is this apparent necessity of appointing Sylvanas to reach Zandalar, which sounds like a stretch to me. Surely, reaching Zandalar can be considered a "collateral effect" of the war but is way too casual and such an event could have happened in all other kind of ways with or without Sylvanas. I just don't see Sylvanas that important in this whole scheme to justify her ascenscion to Warchief and the subsequent rekindling of the flames of war, if all of this "collateral damage" is truly nothing more than that.

Gotta agree with it. Sylvanas makes ties with Zandalar because Alliance, being aggressive to everyone that isn't them as per usual, once again uses a war with Horde as a pretext to attack other people and captures Zandalari princess and prophet Zul. Any Warchief would be able to send a team to break them out. Sylvanas wasn't really needed here.

Also, to look at the interest of Darkspear Loa in Zandalari from a wider perspective. If they cared much about the Zandalari, why did they wait for Vol'jin's death to make him act in that direction? As per above, Sylvanas isn't really needed under the circumstances of their joining we ended up with. Basic Campfire would get the same results. But, more importantly to the point I'm making, why didn't the act during Cata or MoP when the Zandalari were active?

Think about it this way. Zul turned out to be right about most of his visions and Rastakhan was wrong to dismiss him and leave him to his own devices without his full support. If Darkspear Loa had an interest in Zandalari, they should have sent Vol'jin to corroborate Zul. And try to bridge Rastakhan and Zul, so that Zul doesn't do the stupid thing of turning the world against Troll-kind. Or, when that fails, seek security in the alliance with the Mogu (and once again turn the world against Troll-kind).

Being both a representative of the Loa and the Horde, he could use the backing of the Loa as an argument in favor offerring the Horde as this security, forging this alliance half a decade earlier, saving Zandalari (and other Trolls') lives and making the Horde and the Darkspear stronger. With Darkspear and the Horde also being in a dire situation at the time (Cataclysm, war with Alliance). Especially since, to link to what Aucald spoke about earlier (Loa pushing him to do what he did because of G'huun's threat to them), it is probable that the same Cataclysm contributed to G'huun's seals failing (I mean, it's speculation, but given the effect it had on Zandalar in general, it's probable).

Another thing to consider is that the Loa that led him saw Horde, not the Zandalari, as the home for the Darkspear even before the Darkspear left their island, or made contact with Orcs. Even then they wanted Vol'jin to fight for the proper path of the Horde. They never spoke to him of the Zandalari in the same light. If Vol'jin's deathbed visions had anything to do with Zandalar, it's most likely from the perspective of how that'd strengthen the Darkspear and their Horde family.

[Dagoth Ur]

Gotta agree with it. Sylvanas makes ties with Zandalar because Alliance, being aggressive to everyone that isn't them as per usual, once again uses a war with Horde as a pretext to attack other people and captures Zandalari princess and prophet Zul. Any Warchief would be able to send a team to break them out. Sylvanas wasn't really needed here.

Not sure if it's just Sylvanas being secretive, but it kinda seems she doesn't even know who or what are we extracting from Stormwind. In the quest text she says something along the lines of Alliance capturing vessel with important information which was on route to Bladefist bay. I mean why wouldn't she just say Zandalari emissaries or whatever. It could be that Horde didn't even instigate this alliance in the first place.

[Zulkhan]

Actually my lack of trust here is more in the Loa themselves than Sylvanas - in that the Loa are acting out of a sense of protectionism and willing to allow a world war if it fits their agenda. Of the possible candidates to succeed Vol'jin only Sylvanas has the requisite history and temperament that would lend itself to conflict on this scale, and whether you trust, distrust, like, or dislike Sylvanas she will still at the end of the day be Sylvanas. A Warchief Baine would likely sue for peace, Saurfang or Lor'themar would likely opt not to escalate tensions but would have the Horde remain aloof and closed off, Rokhan would more or less continue Vol'jin's policies, and Gallywix is uninterested in conflict unless it is personally profitable to him. Ji, if you even consider him a candidate, would probably also likely press for peace or even complete reconciliation in the Pandaren fashion. Sylvanas is the Loa's only choice that could bring events to where they need to be in this particular scenario. In a perverse sense you could say that Sylvanas here is also ultimately being used in this scenario.

Oh I can see what you mean. I personally see the Loa as divine beings with a guaranteed "big picture" mentality who wouldn't mind about instigate a world war if that's meant to reach a goal they deem fundamental to achieve. At the same time, I don't necessarily see that agenda to be malicious in nature or diametrically going against the interests of their own worshippers. And while Loa can indeed be ruthless, morally ambiguous and ultimately selfish, as I explained before:

It shouldn't be forgotten that the agendas of the Loa can often walk the same path of their worshippers' needs, since ensuring the safety and prosperity of those who revere them consequentely grant them more following, sacrificies and overall service.

the Loa's needs and their worshippers' needs tend to be inevitably intertwined. Not to mention that both Vol'jin's short-story and especially his novel have showed Loa to favor the "Horde way" (Vol'jin's way) over the Zandalari's, which means favoring a path of careful preservation and progressively built prosperity of Troll-kind and its allies over a relentless war path rooted on racial entitlement and racial pride. Such fact means that, without a doubt, Loa do not crave for senseless war, nor they see a benefit in endangering their worshippers' safety (or rather their continued existence as collective people, since Loa are not enough "kind-hearted" to genuinely care about relatively unimportant individuals and such relative ruthlessness is applied in even likely stronger terms to the Troll's allies) unless true prosperity could be brought to them, one way or another.

While I know he's dying painfully and slowly in the cut-scene there's an air of fatalistic resignation that goes beyond that, I felt; as if it were not only the death of the flesh but also the death of an ideal, which doesn't necessarily fit in with a more upbeat (for the given context) interpretation. Even while wounded and dying from a poisoned blade in "Shadows of the Horde" Vol'jin fought against it - hanging onto life for as long as he could despite the unlikeliness of aid. Here Vol'jin seems resigned but not at peace, and the fact that his shade seems to linger (if Thrall's role in BfA is to be what it seems) also speaks for a distinct quality of unrest. I guess we'll see, though.

Well, I think two facts are to be considered:

1- Vol'jin's hint of fatalism is probably given by the undeniable inevitability of his fate. The first thing he says after calling Sylvanas forward is how the Loa spirits revealed to him that indeed death would have claimed him soon. Considered how the Loa also granted him great insight about the future, the inevitability of his death was surely among those things. And if Vol'jin was truly granted clarity over important future events, than it would make quite sense for him to peacefully accept his unavoidable physical death as a stepping stone for a greater scheme;

2- Vol'jin had entirely different motivations in the novel's beginning compared to Legion. Back then the future was absolutely uncertain for him and the Loa seemed more interested to test him rather than giving him any answer; at that point, he still lacked clues about what to do with Garrosh, what the Horde truly meant for him and which was the whole point of his very existence, what he was truly meant to do. The urge of doing something to halt the self-destructive path Garrosh was leading the Horde to but also the necessity to understand his place in both the Horde and Troll-kind gave him the adamant motivation to keep going and survive. In Legion, however, Vol'jin lies in a diametrically opposite situation: he's not struggling for answers: he, on the contrary, received clarity and enlightenment; he knows what he has to do and, especially during the last half of his speech, he seems to really feel at peace despite all the struggle and pain.

About Vol'jin's lingering presence, I think we know too little about it, such presence may persist for countless reasons and we have yet to know the exact one.

I see this as somewhat turnkey, myself. The Loa know of Sylvanas' needs - to be secure, to build a bulwark against her dark fate in the Shadowlands or the Void. The Loa know that her fear is a tool, and that of the major Horde leaders only she possesses the kind of fear that they can easily use or predict. All that's needed is a bit of a push, a hint of a threat, and Sylvanas can be depended upon to do what's in her current nature - the grow the bulwark around her to be impenetrable to even Alliance aggression. To do that she will of course need allies to grow the ranks of her Horde, allies like the Nightborne and the Highmountain, and the Zandalari too with their powerful navy and ancient ties to beings who have power over life and death (and wouldn't it also be great to have a Loa of Death like Bwonsamdi in your debt). A leads to B, which leads ineluctably to C.

Even with this explanation it doesn't stop to sound like an elaborate stretch. Could the Loa manipulate Sylvanas to reach a certain outcome? Yeah, they could. However, Sylvanas' stated goal to assault Teldrassil doesn't even seem to look very much related to her "bulwark against the infinite" motivation anymore, nor we know if Azerite (or rather the Alliance's potential weaponization of the material) was really a mere "push" and an "hint of threat" or if her stated motives are effectively grounded.

In any case, this way of trying to ensure their own survival in such a myopic way do not really fit what we saw of the Loa in the slightest. Again, we know from Vol'jin's short-story and Shadows of the Horde that the Loa ultimately favor the Horde. They see it as the proper path to ensure the prosperity of Troll-kind. Couple that with Vol'jin's comment regarding a last act of service meant to keep the Horde strong and his showed acceptance and understanding of the decision he had to take and the hints almost become a proof.

The Loa as a group, too, are shortsighted enough (and self-involved enough) to risk the very world of Azeroth if it means their own continuance - which fits in perfectly with the overarching themes of BfA as feckless conflict in the face of wounded and dying world.

Individually maybe, but as a group they proved to be anything but short-sighted. The stance they took in the Vol'jin's novel proved their long-sight well enough. They proved that already when they deemed the Horde the right group where the Darkspear should belong even before Sen'jin's alliance with Thrall was a thing. Shadow Hunters receive their superior knowledge and enlightenment from the Loa, a gift that made them respected and feared by other Trolls, eventually turning them into hermits and outcasts, unwilling to follow simple-minded and power-hungry Troll warlords who lacked vision and merely cared about war and naked conquest. This logically implies that these Trolls' short-sightedness was direct cause of them abandoning the guidance of the Loa to merely desire their boons and power in exchange for bloody sacrificies. Hell, the whole reason why Darkspear are somewhat different from the other Troll tribes is because a powerful Witch Doctor holding a deep connection to the Loa spirits led them, not a vicious Troll warlord, and that leader passed that legacy on to his son, whose he trained and led on the ways of the Shadow Hunter. And it's the insight the Loa granted to Sen'jin, by a vision as they did with Vol'jin in Legion, that ultimately led the Darkspear into the Horde.

Unless Blizzard goes the Daenerys route where Anduin gets more and more paranoid after learning about the three lies, it's just going to end with the tale of him rising above the vile schemes of his enemies, for the glory of the Light.

It kind of intrigued me the notion that one lie should have been told already, meaning that so far Anduin isn't faring that well with his "challenge".

Also, to look at the interest of Darkspear Loa in Zandalari from a wider perspective. If they cared much about the Zandalari, why did they wait for Vol'jin's death to make him act in that direction? As per above, Sylvanas isn't really needed under the circumstances of their joining we ended up with. Basic Campfire would get the same results. But, more importantly to the point I'm making, why didn't the act during Cata or MoP when the Zandalari were active?

Think about it this way. Zul turned out to be right about most of his visions and Rastakhan was wrong to dismiss him and leave him to his own devices without his full support. If Darkspear Loa had an interest in Zandalari, they should have sent Vol'jin to corroborate Zul. And try to bridge Rastakhan and Zul, so that Zul doesn't do the stupid thing of turning the world against Troll-kind. Or, when that fails, seek security in the alliance with the Mogu (and once again turn the world against Troll-kind).

Being both a representative of the Loa and the Horde, he could use the backing of the Loa as an argument in favor offerring the Horde as this security, forging this alliance half a decade earlier, saving Zandalari (and other Trolls') lives and making the Horde and the Darkspear stronger. With Darkspear and the Horde also being in a dire situation at the time (Cataclysm, war with Alliance). Especially since, to link to what Aucald spoke about earlier (Loa pushing him to do what he did because of G'huun's threat to them), it is probable that the same Cataclysm contributed to G'huun's seals failing (I mean, it's speculation, but given the effect it had on Zandalar in general, it's probable).

Another thing to consider is that the Loa that led him saw Horde, not the Zandalari, as the home for the Darkspear even before the Darkspear left their island, or made contact with Orcs. Even then they wanted Vol'jin to fight for the proper path of the Horde. They never spoke to him of the Zandalari in the same light. If Vol'jin's deathbed visions had anything to do with Zandalar, it's most likely from the perspective of how that'd strengthen the Darkspear and their Horde family.

I'll try to come up with a personal and relatively bland, rough-draft theory and theorize that the Loa saw how the Horde's and Zandalari's paths were going to cross in the near future and that such event was unavoidable, regardless of Sylvanas. That would mean that putting Sylvanas in charge of the Horde's leadership was never meant to play a direct role in the Zandalari's affairs and their eventual addition into the Horde's ranks; not like she could have had one, considering Sylvanas' ties to Zandalar amount from zero to random negative number.

Now, the fact that the Loa effectively favor the Horde and Vol'jin's way means that they do not indeed favor the Trolls unaligned with the Horde the same way. This became blatantly evident in Shadows of the Horde where they unmistakably rejected the Zandalari's war path and every other Troll who followed them. This easily applies to Zul's followers but it doesn't mean Rastakhan and his people were looked in a more favorable light; Zandalari as a whole remain proud and isolationist and despited being more disciplined and less narrow-minded than other Trolls, they're no strangers to war and brutal conquest, with or without Zul. In fact, I think is pretty clear that this may still be the case at large and the Horde's journey into Zandalar is going to be quite harsh and unwelcoming at the beginning, with the presence of Rastakhan's daughter by our side being the only factor avoiding our immediate execution.

Nonetheless, this chain of events is meant to bring the Zandalari under the Horde's umbrella and likely change their cemented and outdated ways, something the Loa would definitely appreciate, not much because of immense care about the Zandalari but because them joining the Horde would mean more Trolls (the Zandalari themselves and all the other Troll tribes who respect and admire them) and consequently more worshippers joining the "right" path the Loa favor. In all of this, I believe Vol'jin was obviously meant to play a role himself but fate decided he couldn't make it alive to that point due to the Legion issue (something Bwomsamdi likely knew all the way back to MoP, where he implied that opposing Garrosh and "saving" the Horde from its drastic twist was the victory that would have cost Vol'jin dearly, likely because of the Warchief nomination he received as consequence of those actions and the primary leadership role he consequently fulfilled during the Broken Shore event) reason why Vo'jin seems to nonetheless play some kind of role as lingering spirit (and we simply don't know which kind of role and in which kind of form he's meant to play it).

Now, this means that Vol'jin's death itself doesn't really make much of a difference regarding the Zandalar affairs. It does, however, make a pretty monumental difference regarding a certain detail: the leadership of the faction the Loa favor and that Vol'jin can't lead at the moment due to the little issue of being dead. For whatever reason, they considered Sylvanas the fitting replacement and promtly showed to the dying Vol'jin a clarifying vision meant to prove their point, a point Vol'jin seemed to steadily agree with. According to Vol'jin's own words, this decision was indeed meant to ensure the Horde remained "strong".

It's unclear if this decision was tied to the surfacing of Azerite (an event the Loa didn't trigger themselves but surely envisioned nonetheless) as Azerite likely bears no importance when it comes to Zandalar but definitely does when it comes to the Horde. And whatever the ultimate endgame is, I believe the two apparently unrelated events (Zandalar joining the Horde and Sylvanas leading the organization in question) are eventually meant to "click" together, imagining Vol'jin (in whatever form he presents himself) and Bwomsamdi (the Loa of Death, the closest to Vol'jin but also the closest to Sylvanas' realm) to play some kind of role in making that connection.

[Shampro]

I think it's interesting that they had information for Sylvanas, it seems like the first ones to make a move towards Orgrimmar were them instead of the contrary.

Listen closely, champion. I received word that a vessel containing important information was en route for Bladefist Bay. That ship never arrived.

http://beta.wowdb.com/quests/50769-storming-stormwind

Could Vol'jin somehow have a hand in this aswell? What info did they have? Were the Loa also trying to tie Talanji and Zul into the Horde? Many questions that will need to be filled out with a timeline once everything is actually properly implemented and established.

[Aucald]

Oh I can see what you mean. I personally see the Loa as divine beings with a guaranteed "big picture" mentality who wouldn't mind about instigate a world war if that's meant to reach a goal they deem fundamental to achieve. At the same time, I don't necessarily see that agenda to be malicious in nature or diametrically going against the interests of their own worshippers. And while Loa can indeed be ruthless, morally ambiguous and ultimately selfish, as I explained before: "It shouldn't be forgotten that the agendas of the Loa can often walk the same path of their worshippers' needs, since ensuring the safety and prosperity of those who revere them consequentely grant them more following, sacrificies and overall service."

the Loa's needs and their worshippers' needs tend to be inevitably intertwined. Not to mention that both Vol'jin's short-story and especially his novel have showed Loa to favor the "Horde way" (Vol'jin's way) over the Zandalari's, which means favoring a path of careful preservation and progressively built prosperity of Troll-kind and its allies over a relentless war path rooted on racial entitlement and racial pride. Such fact means that, without a doubt, Loa do not crave for senseless war, nor they see a benefit in endangering their worshippers' safety (or rather their continued existence as collective people, since Loa are not enough "kind-hearted" to genuinely care about relatively unimportant individuals and such relative ruthlessness is applied in even likely stronger terms to the Troll's allies) unless true prosperity could be brought to them, one way or another.

I actually see the Loa as a bit smaller-scale than that - highly-focused, very powerful within their specific domain, but ultimately short-sighted outside said domain and prone to self-involved or even egotistical rationalizations. The Loa take their forms and their personas from their environments and mortal worshippers, but their agendas are largely their own (and not necessarily held in common at that). Vol'jin's often contentious dialogue with Bwonsamdi is a perfect example - during the battle for the Echo Isles he upbraids the Darkspear for not keeping up with their propitiation to him (despite his knowledge of their many conflicts and difficulties), and in "Shadows of the Horde" he takes Vol'jin's desire to survive as an almost personal affront to his patronage. While he's amenable to having his mind changed he comes across as sarcastic and crass, and part of his eventual assent is due to Vol'jin having impressed Bwonsamdi's fellow Loa (and so leveraging their differences against him).

I actually see the Loa as wanting a middle path between Vol'jin's place in the Horde and that of the Zandalari. They *want* the Troll empire to rise up once more, because they want the flood of rich tribute, prayer, and propitiation they once had in the halcyon days of the ancient Troll empire. They recognize, however; that the Zandalari have their dreams stuck in the past and so can never achieve this goal themselves - they continually try to recreate a memory that they only dimly grasp and thus can never realize. Vol'jin, like Sen'jin before him, can see a way that the Trolls can be mighty once more; a way that relies on the strength of the Horde. I firmly believe that if they saw a way, through the creation of a world war between the Horde and Alliance, to carve a path for themselves to become as worshipped as they once were they would take that route and damn the consequences. Their time-table and their willingness to sacrifice might also be bolstered by a fear of the rising power of G'huun (who has already consumed two of the Loa thus far) - fear may be pushing them to try and realize the dream before it would be otherwise sensible.

1- Vol'jin's hint of fatalism is probably given by the undeniable inevitability of his fate. The first thing he says after calling Sylvanas forward is how the Loa spirits revealed to him that indeed death would have claimed him soon. Considered how the Loa also granted him great insight about the future, the inevitability of his death was surely among those things. And if Vol'jin was truly granted clarity over important future events, than it would make quite sense for him to peacefully accept his unavoidable physical death as a stepping stone for a greater scheme;

I see very little of peace in the way of his manner and in his death itself. I am confident Vol'jin knew he was dying and that his death was unavoidable this time, but the way he conducts himself is still singularly "off" from my perspective.

2- Vol'jin had entirely different motivations in the novel's beginning compared to Legion. Back then the future was absolutely uncertain for him and the Loa seemed more interested to test him rather than giving him any answer; at that point, he still lacked clues about what to do with Garrosh, what the Horde truly meant for him and which was the whole point of his very existence, what he was truly meant to do. The urge of doing something to halt the self-destructive path Garrosh was leading the Horde to but also the necessity to understand his place in both the Horde and Troll-kind gave him the adamant motivation to keep going and survive. In Legion, however, Vol'jin lies in a diametrically opposite situation: he's not struggling for answers: he, on the contrary, received clarity and enlightenment; he knows what he has to do and, especially during the last half of his speech, he seems to really feel at peace despite all the struggle and pain.

About Vol'jin's lingering presence, I think we know too little about it, such presence may persist for countless reasons and we have yet to know the exact one.

He had those doubts and conflicts after surviving the attack by Bloodrazor, but in his moments of seemingly dying directly after the attack he was wracked by a powerful drive to preserve himself at all costs. I agree that in his death scene in Legion he is both resigned and no longer fighting - but I disagree that this "clarity" he received was good knowledge that brought him peace of mind. It's the difference between knowing what should be done, and what *must* be done (and what must be done is not always a good thing).

As for his lingering shade, I agree - it remains to be seen.

Even with this explanation it doesn't stop to sound like an elaborate stretch. Could the Loa manipulate Sylvanas to reach a certain outcome? Yeah, they could. However, Sylvanas' stated goal to assault Teldrassil doesn't even seem to look very much related to her "bulwark against the infinite" motivation anymore, nor we know if Azerite (or rather the Alliance's potential weaponization of the material) was really a mere "push" and an "hint of threat" or if her stated motives are effectively grounded.

In any case, this way of trying to ensure their own survival in such a myopic way do not really fit what we saw of the Loa in the slightest. Again, we know from Vol'jin's short-story and Shadows of the Horde that the Loa ultimately favor the Horde. They see it as the proper path to ensure the prosperity of Troll-kind. Couple that with Vol'jin's comment regarding a last act of service meant to keep the Horde strong and his showed acceptance and understanding of the decision he had to take and the hints almost become a proof.

We already know from the data-mined text strings that protectionism for the Horde figures largely into Sylvanas' rationale for war, including her assault upon Teldrassil:

"The Horde's children, and their children's children, will curse our memories as they burn. If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We have both seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it. The Horde and the Alliance have been at a stalemate. Both of our armies have been exhausted against the Legion. But therein, I see an opportunity."

"We take this azerite and use it to conquer Kalimdor. We build the greatest empire ever known; one that is untouchable against the Alliance. With the seas parting our lands, rather than mere borders, we can live and prosper without conflict. That is how you ensure the survival of the Horde for the next hundred years..."

Protectionism for the Horde (and primarily for herself in my estimation) lies at the heart of Sylvanas' rationale for war - and this dovetails neatly with the needs of the Loa facing their own personal apocalypse in the form of the growing power of G'huun and his closeness to escaping his imprisonment. The Loa favor the Horde, and that favor impels them to drive their Zandalari priests to the Horde (and we also know that Talanji and Zul were on their way to Orgrimmar before being brought to Stormwind, for reasons so far unknown).

Individually maybe, but as a group they proved to be anything but short-sighted. The stance they took in the Vol'jin's novel proved their long-sight well enough. They proved that already when they deemed the Horde the right group where the Darkspear should belong even before Sen'jin's alliance with Thrall was a thing. Shadow Hunters receive their superior knowledge and enlightenment from the Loa, a gift that made them respected and feared by other Trolls, eventually turning them into hermits and outcasts, unwilling to follow simple-minded and power-hungry Troll warlords who lacked vision and merely cared about war and naked conquest. This logically implies that these Trolls' short-sightedness was direct cause of them abandoning the guidance of the Loa to merely desire their boons and power in exchange for bloody sacrificies. Hell, the whole reason why Darkspear are somewhat different from the other Troll tribes is because a powerful Witch Doctor holding a deep connection to the Loa spirits led them, not a vicious Troll warlord, and that leader passed that legacy on to his son, whose he trained and led on the ways of the Shadow Hunter. And it's the insight the Loa granted to Sen'jin, by a vision as they did with Vol'jin in Legion, that ultimately led the Darkspear into the Horde.

When the Loa are in accord, perhaps; but that seems like a comparatively rare occurrence. The Loa have always seemed willful and fractious to me - prone to infighting and hypocritically justifying their continued worship on the grounds of the empire they once afforded to the Trolls in ancient history. They grant their power easily enough, though; and of the greater powers that exist in the Warcraft universe they seem the most personable and the most directly interested in the life of their worshipers (as opposed to the Night Elven Ancients, other Wild Gods, Keepers, or Titans). Shadow Hunters were among the first to become aware of the flaw of the Zandalari in general (the tendency of living in the past mentioned above), their connectedness to the Loa's desires impelling them to make the choices they made. Vol'jin's choice to join the Horde proper was both a boon and a curse - one that saved his people, but also one he (and by extension they) barely survived when it came to Garrosh. While the Loa are afforded a great scope of view than mortal Troll they are very far from omniscient, and when coupled with their more self-aggrandizing tendencies this often incarnates in the form of giving with one hand while clawing back with the other.

[delus]

Ordinarily I would be inclined to agree - the first time I watched the cut-scene I felt much the same way. But on subsequent views I've begun to feel something decidedly "off" about the way Vol'jin speaks, and specially the way he says that the spirits have granted him clarity. I begun to detect definite notes of sadness to it, or perhaps of regret - a feeling that what he's doing is being done out of a sense of obligation or requirement. "Clarity" does indeed imply enlightenment or epiphany, unless it's being used to mask something else he either can't or won't related to the assembled. A vision of the future that, as he says, "many will not understand." The implication of this seems to be about his choice of Sylvanas to succeed him, but perhaps this isn't all he meant.

For the latter, to tie it in with the above, Vol'jin would need to establish Sylvanas' credentials to lead - her worthiness to take on the mantle. Perhaps there's an element even of justifying it to himself as well as to the assembled other leaders who are just as disinclined to trust her as he was himself. It's not in the spirit of dishonesty either - Sylvanas did truly save the Horde at the Broken Shore by organizing their retreat, but to go from clenched-teeth teammate to Warchief in a single bound seems like a bridge too far.



I don't think the decision would be solely about Zandalar or the Loa, though - if it were I doubt Vol'jin could be persuaded, or even blackmailed, to acceding to the request. There's no doubt an element of trade in the deal. Vol'jin allows Sylvanas to ascend which will ultimately aid the Loa and safeguard them from the threat to come (G'huun), and in exchange the Loa extends their blessings onto the Horde proper instead of just their favored Zandalari. Above and beyond that, this act would ultimately achieve something Vol'jin and Sen'jin seem to have long worked for - it would unify the Zandalari with the Horde, bridging the divide that's existed between their tribes since time immemorial. *That* would be a sacrifice worthy enough to finally bring Vol'jin to the proverbial table with the Loa.

Ever consider that he made Sylvanas Warchief to expose her as a cancer within the horde, one that would bring much suffering on both sides before removed?

[Aucald]

Ever consider that he made Sylvanas Warchief to expose her as a cancer within the horde, one that would bring much suffering on both sides before removed.

Personally, I don't think Vol'jin would inflict the Horde with Sylvanas if that were the case - rather he'd probably use the weight of his dying words to denounce her, and hope that his fellow leaders in the Horde would work to see it done.

[Dagoth Ur]

Ever consider that he made Sylvanas Warchief to expose her as a cancer within the horde, one that would bring much suffering on both sides before removed?

Problem with that is she wouldn't even be able to something significantly harmful if she wasn't put in power beforehand by Vol'jin. Also at that point Sylvanas hasn't done anything especially harmful to the Horde to justify being thought of as "cancer within the Horde". On the contrary, she called retreat and saved the Horde from being obliterated on the Broken shore.

[Deleted]

When Vol'jin stated it's time for her to step out of the shadows and the book excerpt further confirmed, that exactly this was something that kind of made Sylvanas change her plans or at least adjust them, I thought the fact that she couldn't do whatever she does undisturbed anymore was a big part of why the Loa wanted her to be warchief. If, indeed, it was the Loa and they had more of an agenda than just 'uh, war is always good, lots of death, lots of need for our help, many devoted followers'.

[tommyhil622]

Except they are international law by default. They are piece of law between two nations (or above). What do you call it? And where on Earth did you get that date from? League of Nations wasn't a result of international law? Hague Convention of 1899 was not international law? Geneva Convention of 1864 was not international law?

I'll clarify. Up until 1945 there was no enforcement of international law by an international body. In wow for instance, the only thing resembling such a body was when they put Garrosh on trail. That's about it. I guess the Korin Torr can be one as well but enforcement and authority across the globe not so much. But i hear ya.