The Old God and the Sea

[Doffen]

The Old Gnome and the Sea.

Gnomes are harbingers of the Old Gods confirmed. Or Old Gods themselves, even?

Fucking gnomes. Must have more of the Uldum rolling fireball sort of quests.

[Lupinemancer]

Kinda tired of all this "Old God" stuff before it even becomes a expension/patch/whatever...

Why are people so damn obsessed with these Old Gods. Is that what you want to fight? Tentacles, Teeth, Eyes, purple slime?
Sounds so boring.

Don't project your Tentacle fetish onto others. The Old Gods are still shrounded in lots of mystery that people know nothing about. That is what people are interested in.

[Jastall]

Well, when you use Lovecraft's story-elements you tend to face the same conundrum as the man himself did with his stories - you can only sell mystery and shadows for so long before people lose interest. Eventually you have to produce the monster only vaguely glimpsed in the shadows, or spoken of in the eldritch texts, and a good 75% of the time you'll find the typical human reaction of defense kicks in and your audience leans back and says something along the lines of "oh, a bat made of shadows with a three-lobed eye? Phew, I thought for a minute it was going to be a four-lobed eye." And so your bogeyman monster is sapped of their power to inspire terror or horror and you've lost the proverbial ballgame in the last inning.

I recognize the process and can only lament it when it goes down the almost unavoidable arc of descent.

Yeah, it's the problem with such kind of villains. The Reapers in Mass Effect faced the same issues. I do think Blizzard could have preserved their mystery and power by not just straight up saying they are Void Lord pawns.

[Magicon]

Because old gods are cool. If you're tired of reading shit before the xpansion maybe stay the fuck off the forums.

Relax. K, guess I am in the minority that don't think "Old Gods" and all this "creation of the world/races" is that cool. I like reading stuff except for things related to Old Gods, also not looking forward to the quests related to old gods in the next expension either. Everything else I think is fun reading on the forums, so I don't see why I should fuck off the forums. This will probably be one of my last replies on this topic.

Also gotta ask if I offended you in any way, since you sound so damn angry at me?

Have fun speculating on the Old Gods and stuff!

[VarsityAthlete]

Exactly this. I wish people were not narrow-minded and only excited about spikes and Demons or whatever <insert Horde meme>. Old God fantasy is truly about mystery, even within the WoW universe.

It was until they ruined their lore with the Void Lords. Have fun, though.

[Magicon]

Don't project your Tentacle fetish onto others. The Old Gods are still shrounded in lots of mystery that people know nothing about. That is what people are interested in.

I don't have tentacle fetishes, but it seems I offended you in any way by saying my opinions? I respect that people think it is cool with Old Gods. I just said that I was bored of it and wondered why other people think it is cool. And seems like people are being dicks towards me just because I said my opinion and asked a question. I think I got the answer. Some of you like the old gods because of the mystery etc. like you said.

[Aquamonkey]

Nyorloth used to be in Cdev, and it's clear he subscribed to the idea of them being truly deathless and exceedingly powerful entities at their full-strength. Then he was laid-off. Whoever took over next had a very different perspective on them, as something the Titans could just rip out of the ground.

Nyorloth was never a CDev, he was a community manager. He compiled the Ask CDev questions and posted the CDev answers.

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The current idea for Old Gods is probably that the Void Lords are the Old Gods, in the same way N'zoth is Il'gynoth. That's how they're resolving the power level questions, where they've been using Old Gods at two very different power levels. The solution is to split them up into the physical manifestation of Void, the Old Gods, and the incorporeal and deathless spirit of the Void, the Void Lords.

The Old Gods are creations of the void lords. This is plainly stated in Chronicle V1.

[KrakHed]

Nyorloth was never a CDev, he was a community manager. He compiled the Ask CDev questions and posted the CDev answers.

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The Old Gods are creations of the void lords. This is plainly stated in Chronicle V1.

He was a CM for two weeks, and two weeks only.

And of course the Old Gods are creations of the Void Lords. J'unga, or whatever his name is, is also a creation of G'huun. And G'huun's avatar. Which makes it an aspect of G'huun.

[Wilfire]

Well, since everyone is saying what they think of Old Gods, I'll just say this. I have nothing but contempt for Warcraft's portrayal of them, and I personally love Gods, both alien and dark. Divine beings incompatible with our morals, who see things another way. Dark gods of tremendous power who can sway the souls of mortals by exposing them to a perspective they never considered before. Whispering madness is for losers. Give me a god who can explain the necessity of blood sacrifices, the necessity of its own existence and everything it does, and you've got something special.

See, I've always thought the faux Lovecraftian style was never done right. I mean, using the visuals is fine. Tentacles, eyes, and generally inhuman form. That creates the idea that humans aren't special to this God. But people generally don't understand Lovecraft well enough to make use of the rest, and Old Gods aren't very Lovecraftian at all.

The best way to handle Gods like that, if you can't make them truly Lovecraftian entities, is to make them Gods.

They messed up the Old Gods when they explicitly stated that they come from the Void. Before that they were completely alien beings who lived outside the "cycle". You didn't know what their motivations were or where they came from. Now they have been reduced to overgrown parasites and we know that they are a fundamental part of the universe rather than an anomaly that came from the outside. I much preferred the older incarnation of Old God lore that put them on par with the Titans and the N'raqi were an indigenous race rather than spawns of the Old Gods. I liked the idea that there was an ancient empire on Azeroth that summoned the Old Gods for an unknown reason. This new Void nonsense is not satisfying at all from a storytelling perspective. We know exactly what the Old Gods want and what their endgame is.

IMO they shouldn't have written Chronicle at all. Finding out about the Void Lords in game would have been a big "oh shit" moment. Just casually reading about them in a lore companion book doesn't have the same impact.

[OIS]

You misunderstand me. Faceless Ones have very clear loyalties. But one without a God is just a meat husk for any random God to fill. Loyalties can be transferred. One things Old Gods do well is assimilate the forces of others.

Riiiiiiiiight.

[KrakHed]

Riiiiiiiiight.

Is anything I said so strange? The idea that Faceless Ones have clear loyalties? They warred with one another all the time. The idea that Old Gods assimilate? We call this "corruption". An empty Faceless One is probably quite easy for them to grab onto. That one in Violet Hold seems like an example of switched allegiances, only regaining consciousness when he fell under N'zoth's control. Or is it the idea that Faceless Ones are part of their God? Well, we know they're born from their flesh, but some are even directly referred to as Avatars.

The data fits, and we already knew that Old Gods like hive creatures.

[iETHOSi]

Maybe the Tottles will give us a Cho like Lorewalker and this is a story bunny to trigger that cinematic?

That's an idea.

[OIS]

Is anything I said so strange? The idea that Faceless Ones have clear loyalties? They warred with one another all the time. The idea that Old Gods assimilate? We call this "corruption". An empty Faceless One is probably quite easy for them to grab onto. That one in Violet Hold seems like an example of switched allegiances, only regaining consciousness when he fell under N'zoth's control. Or is it the idea that Faceless Ones are part of their God? Well, we know they're born from their flesh, but some are even directly referred to as Avatars.

The data fits, and we already knew that Old Gods like hive creatures.

The data does not fit. The fact that a faceless one had connections to two different Old Gods doesn't prove much in my opinion. It's unprecedented, why do you take it as irrefutable evidence?

And I don't agree with the idea that the Old God minions being one and the same with the Old Gods themselves. The faceless ones aren't the only race they created, are we going to give the aqir the same treatment? Are the mantid and Y'shaarj the same thing? Or the races they have assimilated with the Curse of Flesh? I think you are making this connection because the faceless ones have tentacles like the Old Gods do. Going further up from this to the Void Lords would be pure headcanon, while I understand that part of the appeal with the Void is that everything is vague and prone to speculation, I just don't see a need to discuss this further. We know almost nothing about the Void Lords, they could be anything. It's meaningless to brainstorm over this given the information we have right now.

[KrakHed]

The data does not fit. The fact that a faceless one had connections to two different Old Gods doesn't prove much in my opinion. It's unprecedented, why do you take it as irrefutable evidence?

And I don't agree with the idea that the Old God minions being one and the same with the Old Gods themselves. The faceless ones aren't the only race they created, are we going to give the aqir the same treatment? Are the mantid and Y'shaarj the same thing? Or the races they have assimilated with the Curse of Flesh? I think you are making this connection because the faceless ones have tentacles like the Old Gods do. Going further up from this to the Void Lords would be pure headcanon, while I understand that part of the appeal with the Void is that everything is vague and prone to speculation, I just don't see a need to discuss this further. We know almost nothing about the Void Lords, they could be anything. It's meaningless to brainstorm over this given the information we have right now.

As is always the case with these things, the further you get from the source the more removed the creature is. But if you're asking if the Aqir are also avatars of the Old Gods, that was literally their lore when they were introduced. The Qiraji were all avatars of C'thun, at least to some extent or another.

The Old God would create avatars from the Silithid in its own image. These avatars were to be known as Qiraji.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Prophecy_of_C%27Thun

The servants of the Old Gods are referred to as Avatars on several occasions. An avatar being the manifestation of a god. And the Old Gods being referred to as manifestations of the power of the Void Lords, suggesting they too are avatars. Now, some are clearly more independent than others, but that's that.

Old Gods were designed as hiveminds.

[Aquamonkey]

As is always the case with these things, the further you get from the source the more removed the creature is. But if you're asking if the Aqir are also avatars of the Old Gods, that was literally their lore when they were introduced. The Qiraji were all avatars of C'thun, at least to some extent or another.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Prophecy_of_C%27Thun

The servants of the Old Gods are referred to as Avatars on several occasions. An avatar being the manifestation of a god. And the Old Gods being referred to as manifestations of the power of the Void Lords, suggesting they too are avatars. Now, some are clearly more independent than others, but that's that.

That's the only occasion.

Old Gods were designed as hiveminds.

Must be why they fight and devour each other...

[Al Gorefiend]

I very much doubt that. Blizzard lore is so inconsistent, with so many devs with varying views, that there is evidence for very wildly varying ideas on what Old Gods are. In Knaak's books, they were confident they could deal with Sargeras, no problem. In C'thun's backstory, he took out a Titan in personal combat. By Cataclysm, they had doubledowned more on Titans creating everything, and Old Gods merely being corruptors. Nyorloth used to be in Cdev, and it's clear he subscribed to the idea of them being truly deathless and exceedingly powerful entities at their full-strength. Then he was laid-off. Whoever took over next had a very different perspective on them, as something the Titans could just rip out of the ground.



I don't think you understand what Blizzard is doing. They nerfed the Old Gods to the ground, but the Old Gods have hivemind themes. Il'gynoth is described as being part of N'zoth, while also acting as a separate entity with its own name. Same goes for each and every Faceless One.

The current idea for Old Gods is probably that the Void Lords are the Old Gods, in the same way N'zoth is Il'gynoth. That's how they're resolving the power level questions, where they've been using Old Gods at two very different power levels. The solution is to split them up into the physical manifestation of Void, the Old Gods, and the incorporeal and deathless spirit of the Void, the Void Lords.

Nyorloth didn't write any of the lore. His job was only slightly more involved than an intern conducting an interview on a daily basis. He lasted at Blizzard for 2 weeks.

[Enkrypt]

You misunderstand me. Faceless Ones have very clear loyalties. But one without a God is just a meat husk for any random God to fill. Loyalties can be transferred. One things Old Gods do well is assimilate the forces of others.

Is this information headcanon, or is it documented somewhere? How are you so sure that's how Faceless Ones work? Where is a precedent for an Old God assimilating the army or forces of another Old God enough times to indicate they do it well?

Sounds a lot like headcanon...

[Larynx]

Is this information headcanon, or is it documented somewhere? How are you so sure that's how Faceless Ones work? Where is a precedent for an Old God assimilating the army or forces of another Old God enough times to indicate they do it well?

The Curse of Flesh is the only reference to assimilation I am aware of.

Tribunal of Ages: "Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including earthen, defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed 'the Curse of Flesh'. Effects of destabilization increased over time."

In other words: Stone/Metallic Titan creations are resistant to Old God corruption. Curse of Flesh makes them vulnerable due to their individuality and allows the Old Gods to subvert Titan directives.

I don't see how this applies to Faceless Ones though.

[KrakHed]

Nyorloth didn't write any of the lore. His job was only slightly more involved than an intern conducting an interview on a daily basis. He lasted at Blizzard for 2 weeks.

He lasted as a CM for two weeks. He was employed beforehand.

That's the only occasion.

Nazmir has others.
http://bfa.wowhead.com/quest=49136/j...vatar-of-ghuun

Must be why they fight and devour each other...

Wow! Different hives of ants kill and attack one another!? SURPRISING! UNPRECEDENTED!

But have you noticed that their own armies, the armies under each single god, don't turn on themselves except in the most extreme despite being creatures of self-serving madness and chaos?

Is this information headcanon, or is it documented somewhere? How are you so sure that's how Faceless Ones work? Where is a precedent for an Old God assimilating the army or forces of another Old God enough times to indicate they do it well?

Sounds a lot like headcanon...

That part is an educated guess, based on the portrayal of a Faceless One deactivating after Yogg-Saron's death, and reactivating when it got brought closer to N'zoth. It suggests this particular Faceless One is dependent on having a "Queen", so to speak.

The Curse of Flesh is the only reference to assimilation I am aware of.

Tribunal of Ages: "Designation: Old Gods. Old Gods rendered all systems, including earthen, defenseless in order to facilitate assimilation. This matrix destabilization has been termed 'the Curse of Flesh'. Effects of destabilization increased over time."

In other words: Stone/Metallic Titan creations are resistant to Old God corruption. Curse of Flesh makes them vulnerable due to their individuality and allows the Old Gods to subvert Titan directives.

I don't see how this applies to Faceless Ones though.

All mindcontrol, corruption, and madness is a form of assimilation. But you can just call it corruption if you like. It's the same mind tendrils and telepathic whispers being plugged into your brain either way.

[Enkrypt]

That part is an educated guess, based on the portrayal of a Faceless One deactivating after Yogg-Saron's death, and reactivating when it got brought closer to N'zoth. It suggests this particular Faceless One is dependent on having a "Queen", so to speak.

I love the Old Gods and Lovecraft as much as the next guy, especially speculating about it, but I think what you're saying may be an attempt to pass it off as canon information. Using one mob's interaction with two different OGs to establish and sensationalize this theory is a bit too far, though. We just don't know as much to say that like it's confirmed.

I think we need more info from BFA to know more. If they tell more of the story, that is. Fingers crossed.