The Old God and the Sea

[KrakHed]

The zerg are not originally a hive mind and each member (at least the more advanced ones) has individuality. The individuals are dominated by the Overmind to keep them in check.

And yet they're still called a hivemind, making them an acceptable example of a fictional hivemind. A degree of individuality doesn't prevent something from being considered a hivemind.

I'd consider the Scourge under the Lich King to also be a form of hivemind, despite its many individuals of varying autonomy. They're all psychically linked to the Lich King and bound to his will.

[Aucald]

And the Zerg were neither model with their Overmind and Cerebrates, yet still a hivemind. As for the relationship between the Mantid Queen and the swarm of newborns? It very much satisfies the requirements to be a form of hivemind. Do you think all ants are the exact same consciousness? A hive nonetheless functions as one organism despite that separation. I'm not saying the Mantid are the same kind of hiveminds as the Old Gods, but the relationship between their Queen and the immature Mantids matches many depictions of a hivemind.

There's a difference between a literal hive (e.g. a eusocial collection of entities descending in a rigid biological caste from a single progenitor) and a hive-mind. The Mantid certainly have elements of being a hive, likely due to their insectoid inspiration - but a hive isn't the same as a hive-mind, which implies that the collective's intelligence is centralized in either one creature or a gestalt spread among the whole collective itself. I would also say the Zerg aren't a literal hive-mind, either; their constituent members have their own personalities, occasionally their own agendas, and definitive sense of being separate from the whole. The Overmind (and later Kerrigan) actually incarnates the more nebulous "will" of the Zerg Swarm, the psychic force that propels them to do things as opposed to chaotically swarming, attacking one another, and generally being completely disorganized beasts (which itself probably stems from the primal Zerg's instinctual drive to collect evolutionary "essence"). The Overmind/Kerrigan is definitely closer to the mold of a dominating hive-mind than the Mantid Queen, however; especially since it has an element of connection to the Zerg embedded directly into their fundamental DNA.

The Mantid combine elements of both ant and wasp hives in terms of how its society operates - with most of of the species being either gatherers or drones, some being more advanced specimens in the make of a royal guard or Praetorian-like subspecies, with the Klaxxi and Paragons being the pinnacle of the Praetorian members who hold themselves separate (or above) even the Queen. They make heavy use of insect pheromones as well, which seems to be strong aspect of their culture and biology.

[Nero Duskwind]

Exactly this. I wish people were not narrow-minded and only excited about spikes and Demons or whatever <insert Horde meme>. Old God fantasy is truly about mystery, even within the WoW universe.

I'm burnt out on charred biomes, hellish landscapes, and demons. Please bring on the maddeningly incomprehensible terrors and eldritch abominations ASAP.

[KrakHed]

There's a difference between a literal hive (e.g. a eusocial collection of entities descending in a rigid biological caste from a single progenitor) and a hive-mind.

And that difference depends entirely on the author. Hiveminds have a lot of flexibility in portrayals. The main defining characteristic is their lack of absolute autonomy in one form or another and absolute obedience to the higher will, sometimes with a few weak points in that control. A psychic component to it all usually helps, and the Old Gods are psychic as fuck.

And as I already said, I consider the Mantid to have nothing more than vestigial hivemind traits. They've evolved past it, though their young still exhibit those remnant traits. The Mantid did not always live as they do now. Their culture came after the death of Y'Shaarj.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyhow, in general...

There are two types of dominance based hivemind. One where the central intelligence has near infinite attention and focus to multitask on every single bathroom break, finger twitch, and so on, and then there's the delegation based dominance hivemind. Each individual has basic survival instincts and understands basic concepts. More advanced individuals command less advanced ones. And so the central intelligence doesn't need to micromanage everything, and only involves itself directly when necessary. It can then set general directives and expect them to be carried out, as nothing will actually disobey it.

This is one of the most common depictions of the hivemind in fiction.

[Magicon]

It's like 10% of the launch content. Let people enjoy things.

Yeah? And I let them enjoy it? I said my personal opinions asked and why people are obsessed or interrested in it. Already got a bunch of answers earlier, which leads me more to a convinced stat. Even tho some answered very toxic and seemed like they were offended by my post or something.

[The Prince]

It's useful to think of the Old Gods as the Hive Fleets from Warhammer 40k (which, by the way, inspired Warcraft). They all have their own distinctive characteristics but ultimately they are all just extensions of the Hive Mind. Look at the map of the Black Empire. N'Zoth himself probably wasn't that big - but all of the Aqir and the N'raqi spawned by him were extensions of himself.

There are probably Void Lords called N'Zoth, Yogg-Saron, C'Thun and Y'Shaarj. It would be way cooler than coming up with completely new antagonists that had never been mentioned before.

My thoughts exactly.

My biggest gripe with the introduction of the Void lords and the diminished role of the OG´s is the former´s lack of presence and agency in the story. They are presented too vaguely and far removed from anything that matters and OG´s being just mere cancerous tentacle blobs that serves as tools for this too-external threat is not that exciting at all, in my opinion. Actually when I come to think of it, you could´ve actually remove the Void lords completely from the story and OG´s grand scheme would still function the same (corrupt a nascent titan > dark titan > end of the universe).

Adding the detail that the OGs are like VL´s avatars in the physical realm would actually link the latter to the events of the story, giving them some actual presence and making the OGs characteristics not go in vain. But that´s just me

[Al Gorefiend]

Not sure if this is becoming the official N'zoth in BfA thread.

Did anyone else catch that in the BfA soundtrack, the track titled "City of Gold" AKA the Zandalar theme, has a part where you can clearly hear "N'zoth... N'zoth..." being chanted?

[Aucald]

Not sure if this is becoming the official N'zoth in BfA thread.

Did anyone else catch that in the BfA soundtrack, the track titled "City of Gold" AKA the Zandalar theme, has a part where you can clearly hear "N'zoth... N'zoth..." being chanted?

I don't know if I can hear "N'Zoth" being chanted anywhere in the musical track for "City of Gold," but it's an awesome track all the same. From what I can tell the whisper is saying "raise up" followed by something that's not intelligible (somewhere near 14:50). It also sounds like the second part after "raise up" changes as the chant goes on.

[Al Gorefiend]

I don't know if I can hear "N'Zoth" being chanted anywhere in the musical track for "City of Gold," but it's an awesome track all the same. From what I can tell the whisper is saying "raise up" followed by something that's not intelligible (somewhere near 14:50). It also sounds like the second part after "raise up" changes as the chant goes on.

Starts at 13:25. Very faintly saying "N'zoooth.. Rise up..."

[Aucald]

Starts at 13:25. Very faintly saying "N'zoooth.. Rise up..."

Can't hear it, or I can't make it out from what they're chanting. Anyone else?

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm not sure if that is what they are saying, but it sounds somewhat like that.

[OIS]

The Avatar of G'huun, Ju'ngo, does not call itself G'huun or speak as if it were G'huun. It claims to speak for G'huun, and generally behaves as any Faceless One would. The Qiraji were described as Avatars back in the day, and were never depicted with the exact same personality as C'thun either. Even if that was retconned, it was true back in the day when the Qiraji were being written. And one thing that's very obvious about C'thun and the Silithid? They were inspired by the Zerg.

This is getting ridiculous. If something is retconned, it doesn't exist in the lore anymore. That it was true at some point in the past doesn't mean anything. What you keep saying boils down to "nuh uh, I'm right, you're wrong". I don't have the patience for that. Keep believing in what you want, enjoy your headcanons, but know that a hive mind is not what you think it means.

[Oneirophobia]

Personally, I preferred the Old Gods before we knew about their backstory and purpose - when they loomed in the background fringes of the story as ill-defined and somewhat nebulous. Knowing that they're simply a catspaw for the Void Lords to infect the physical universe robs them of much of their mystery, which in turn makes them somewhat less powerful story-elements in their own right. I think I prefer the Old Gods and their Black Empire a bit more than I do the Burning Legion as antagonists, though - the demons have always felt a little too external to me, a little too of an outside threat. The Old Gods have been with us since the beginning, though; barely glimpsed through the pages of history but always shaping events to their advantage from the shadows. The feel both like a more direct threat and simultaneously cloaked in layers of subterfuge and secrecy.

I feel like after reading the chronicles, the titans and the void/the void's spawn are less exciting.

The naaru being mysteriously dubious in their goals has begun to replace what the old gods once held for me.

[CasualFilth]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

Yeah, A Moveable Feast was so much better.

[Oneirophobia]

Not sure if this is becoming the official N'zoth in BfA thread.

Did anyone else catch that in the BfA soundtrack, the track titled "City of Gold" AKA the Zandalar theme, has a part where you can clearly hear "N'zoth... N'zoth..." being chanted?

I'm not sure thats english. Is there any instance of english lyrics occurring in any WoW sound tracks?

[KrakHed]

This is getting ridiculous. If something is retconned, it doesn't exist in the lore anymore. That it was true at some point in the past doesn't mean anything. What you keep saying boils down to "nuh uh, I'm right, you're wrong". I don't have the patience for that. Keep believing in what you want, enjoy your headcanons, but know that a hive mind is not what you think it means.

Why do you keep misinterpreting everything I say? I said that at the time the Qiraji were originally written, they were considered to be Avatars. And so they give us an example of what Blizzard considered to be Avatars at the time. Whether or not it was retconned, it doesn't change the meta perspective on the ideas that went into their creation. Blizzard wrote them with Avatars with individual personalities, and continues to do so to this day. This characteristic isn't even a novel one for the fantasy genre. I've seen it done that way before.

As for hiveminds? You have a very narrow view on what is a very broad concept. Lots of hiveminds with a central intelligence have delegated command structures under them, exhibiting various degrees of autonomy and individuality, and yet are still considered to be hiveminds. That's just the most effective way to multitask on such a large scale. If your soldiers can't even so much as scratch their ass without a direct order, they're not much use if you're distracted.

When it comes down to it, I feel I've probably had a different exposure to fictional presentations of hiveminds and avatars than you have, and so have a much broader idea of what they can be than you do.

[Enkrypt]

When it comes down to it, I feel I've probably had a different exposure to fictional presentations of hiveminds and avatars than you have, and so have a much broader idea of what they can be than you do.

I think when it comes down to it, you'll say and twist anything to make it seem like you're right and we're wrong. You were presented with information from Blizzard officials including source material that's considered canon, stating that they are NOT HIVE MINDS, yet you keep insisting you have some higher knowledge of hive minds than we do. By implication, you're also saying Blizzard is wrong about their very own creation, and that you know something they don't. You essentially keep performing what we call "mental gymnastics" to keep finding loop holes. You've presented ZERO information other than your anecdotal "exposure" to support your stance. Usually someone that does that is, well, full of shit.

If you don't understand how that makes you extremely hard to believe, let alone take seriously, then sir, it is you that needs to open their mind up a bit.

[KrakHed]

I think when it comes down to it, you'll say and twist anything to make it seem like you're right and we're wrong. You were presented with information from Blizzard officials including source material that's considered canon, stating that they are NOT HIVE MINDS, yet you keep insisting you have some higher knowledge of hive minds than we do. By implication, you're also saying Blizzard is wrong about their very own creation, and that you know something they don't.

If you don't understand how that makes you extremely hard to believe, let alone take seriously, then sir, it is you that needs to open their mind up a bit.

Why are you getting stuck on the Mantid thing? I never disagreed about them not being a hivemind. If you asked from the start, I'd have said they weren't. The situation with the Klaxxi and how their society is structured make that quite clear, except for immature specimens in the swarm. I called it a vestigial trait.

If Mantids were ever a hivemind, they stopped being one ever since Y'shaarj died. I could theorize they evolved past that, as any Mantid too lacking in autonomy to survive would simply have failed to survive. Natural selection would weed out the most drone-like. Same goes for any other form of Aqir cut off from their God.

If we look at things, the Mantid's cultural sophistication came about after the death of Y'Shaarj, and I wouldn't be surprised if most Mantid before used to be mostly like the immature Swarm. The descriptions we have of Mantid of those days do in fact describe them in terms we'd expect of the immature swarm.

If all Mantid were like that, with only Queens and immature types existing, then they'd be something approximating a hivemind. Since the current Mantid actually disagree with and kill their leader on multiple occasions, with none but their young showing some psychic link of obedience, they definitely aren't a hivemind now.

And that's theorycrafting that's 100% consistent with all lore as presented, in the sense that there's no contradiction.

You are adding the implication that I'm saying Blizzard is wrong about their own creation. Which is to say, you twist everything I say to sound absurd. You are arguing with a modified version of my opinion. I have been 100% consistent with every point of view I've expressed. If you believe otherwise, you have misunderstood something I said.

This is just a theory of course, and I never claimed otherwise, but I find it to be fairly consistent with what's observable. So I take offense at it being called ridiculous because some people shove words into my mouth or aren't familiar with what I'm talking about.

[Enkrypt]

Why are you getting stuck on the Mantid thing? I never disagreed about them not being a hivemind. If you asked from the start, I'd have said they weren't. The situation with the Klaxxi and how their society is structured make that quite clear, except for immature specimens in the swarm. I called it a vestigial trait.

If Mantids were ever a hivemind, they stopped being one ever since Y'shaarj died. I could theorize they evolved past that, as any Mantid too lacking in autonomy to survive would simply have failed to survive. Natural selection would weed out the most drone-like. Same goes for any other form of Aqir cut off from their God.

If we look at things, the Mantid's cultural sophistication came about after the death of Y'Shaarj, and I wouldn't be surprised if most Mantid before used to be mostly like the immature Swarm. The descriptions we have of Mantid of those days do in fact describe them in terms we'd expect of the immature swarm.

If all Mantid were like that, with only Queens and immature types existing, then they'd be something approximating a hivemind. Since the current Mantid actually disagree with and kill their leader on multiple occasions, with none but their young showing some psychic link of obedience, they definitely aren't a hivemind now.

And that's theorycrafting that's 100% consistent with all lore as presented, in the sense that there's no contradiction.

You are adding the implication that I'm saying Blizzard is wrong about their own creation. Which is to say, you twist everything I say to sound absurd. You are arguing with a modified version of my opinion. I have been 100% consistent with every point of view I've expressed. If you believe otherwise, you have misunderstood something I said.

This is just a theory of course, and I never claimed otherwise, but I find it to be fairly consistent with what's observable. So I take offense at it being called ridiculous because some people shove words into my mouth or aren't familiar with what I'm talking about.

I dunno, man. I feel like you're almost cunning with the way you present your info. You outright said Aucald had a limited view of hiveminds when he called you on being incorrect about the Mantid. Thus far, he and Aquamonkey have been very forthcoming with their information and you're just all, "I know more than you, sorry" which isn't really how this sort of thing works, especially when you never present any of that information.

You originally came out saying they were a hivemind. Then, when presented with reasonable evidence to disprove your statement, you changed your tune to "...immature Mantid BEHAVE like a hivemind." slowly but surely backing out, covering your tracks. And really I'm tired of explaining this to you, and I'd rather get back on topic. It eventually boiled down to, "...they have qualities of hive minds, but they aren't a hive mind, because I said so..." which doesn't really float.

You never claimed it as fact, but you sure condescended to people by basically saying, "You don't know what you're talking about, but I do, so you're wrong, and I'm right." that's not really being true to objective discussion, and therefore makes it seem like you're not just discussing theory as much as you're telling us how it really is. Instead you always start your next post with, "You don't understand me..." and then proceed to swap small details to adjust to the discrepancies.

I get hung up on details because that's where you can tell someone is full of it, or telling the truth, and I'm betting it's the former in this case. I haven't seen one ounce of canonical evidence that supports anything you've said. And when 3-4 people are like, "What is this dude talking about?" you have to wonder who's right, and who's making it up as they go along.

And now, for the first time, you say all of what you've been saying is "theorycrafting". Mmmhmm. Yeah. Too many inconsistencies in your theorycrafting. I'm out.

I'm getting back on topic after this entry. Have a good one.

[Minikin]

I very much doubt that. Blizzard lore is so inconsistent, with so many devs with varying views, that there is evidence for very wildly varying ideas on what Old Gods are. In Knaak's books, they were confident they could deal with Sargeras, no problem. In C'thun's backstory, he took out a Titan in personal combat. By Cataclysm, they had doubledowned more on Titans creating everything, and Old Gods merely being corruptors. Nyorloth used to be in Cdev, and it's clear he subscribed to the idea of them being truly deathless and exceedingly powerful entities at their full-strength. Then he was laid-off. Whoever took over next had a very different perspective on them, as something the Titans could just rip out of the ground.



I don't think you understand what Blizzard is doing. They nerfed the Old Gods to the ground, but the Old Gods have hivemind themes. Il'gynoth is described as being part of N'zoth, while also acting as a separate entity with its own name. Same goes for each and every Faceless One.

The current idea for Old Gods is probably that the Void Lords are the Old Gods, in the same way N'zoth is Il'gynoth. That's how they're resolving the power level questions, where they've been using Old Gods at two very different power levels. The solution is to split them up into the physical manifestation of Void, the Old Gods, and the incorporeal and deathless spirit of the Void, the Void Lords.

i agree. it is because the devs changed i believe around cata time and different power levels were established. for example the point you mention about c'thun battling a titan was part of the silithus book before. but then it was changed in chronicle 1 that he never faced an actual titan.

As of currently, though it is not directly stated anywhere just alluded to, that titans are stronger than c'thun and what not, while void lords are either equal or stronger than them, given that they can corrupt a titan and that void titan or w.e can destroy the entire universe (given how legion has taken on the look on the light and the void, destroy here might not mean exactly as we think it means but different).

I believe that they will eventually flesh out a power level for the void lords but use the backdoor that since the void is ever changing ever moving and complete chaos the line is blurred.

Either way its interesting stuff, hopefully they do them justice unlike how Sargeras was dealth with. So many years of waiting only to finally see him in actuality for 5 seconds as he fumbles around for a spaceship.