Army of the Dead is a boring cooldown and doesn't need to be in BFA

[Baddok21]

with M+ being the biggest hit from Legion and will likely influence all dungeon design and repeatable content going forward i want Army to stay but be a baseline 3-4 min cooldown

[franksredhot]

Having to worry about specific amounts of Wounds for Apoc is dumb. Just buff the hell out of AotD.

This is what I mean about strategy. I just can't see the appeal of playing this way. Having 6 wounds and deciding what to do is strategic. Why not just pick a ranged class that has a more direct rotation?

I LOVE the wounds management. The only change I'd like to see is making target switching easier, however that would be implemented. Either aeo wound application or have it apply to your weapon instead.

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Good thing WoW isn't a strategy game.

I know this guys trying to be cute, but I hope everyone can understand the difference between a strategy game and being strategic. As in, allowing for multiple choices - some of which are superior.

[slime]

yea.. I agree 10 mins is stupid, especially trying to time it around a hero... I hope it becomes a 5-6 min cd so you can use it twice in a fight at least. The tier 20 was a classic(legendary) idea but just a flash in the pan.

[Deleted]

Strongly disagree, currently UH's only nieche is that it has the highest ST burst window in the game during hero, and that is thanks to Army+DA. Remove Army and we lose that huge burst window. Eventhough Frost is currently better in almost every situation, UH ocasionally still sees use in progression when guilds are trying to push for certain phase transitions(Argus p1 for instance). Besides that it is also a very iconic ability, so I definitely believe it should stay. However, it will need some damage buffs with the loss of the Artifact traits in order to keep it worthy of that 10min cd.

Besides, you don't just use it on pull everytime, you use it during heroism most of the time, and sometimes you do not, which sacrifices a lot of overall dps but can again help your guild push phase transitions or priority targets.

TL;DR it's a very high impact, iconic CD that is unique to our spec, so imho it should stay.

[Rothulean1]

This is what I mean about strategy. I just can't see the appeal of playing this way. Having 6 wounds and deciding what to do is strategic. Why not just pick a ranged class that has a more direct rotation?

I LOVE the wounds management. The only change I'd like to see is making target switching easier, however that would be implemented. Either aeo wound application or have it apply to your weapon instead.

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I know this guys trying to be cute, but I hope everyone can understand the difference between a strategy game and being strategic. As in, allowing for multiple choices - some of which are superior.

Thats not Wounds management. Or strategic. Thats just "you have 6 Wounds up or your Apoc does less damage." Nothing about that is strategy. Knowing when to Festering Strike outside of Apoc (based current number of Wounds, runes available, current DT uptime etc) is strategic.

Just get rid of Apoc and Garg/DA and make AotD's CD 3 mins.

[Jngizu]

Thats not Wounds management. Or strategic. Thats just "you have 6 Wounds up or your Apoc does less damage." Nothing about that is strategy. Knowing when to Festering Strike outside of Apoc (based current number of Wounds, runes available, current DT uptime etc) is strategic.

Just get rid of Apoc and Garg/DA and make AotD's CD 3 mins.

Yeah, I don't get the strategic part of Apoc either, and I think it's a cool spell. You have enough wounds? You use it. You don't? Wait until you have them. It's very binary.

[Nnyco]

the 10minute cd needs to become a 3-5min cd also the death debuff needs to stay(or all 4 for that matter)

[franksredhot]

Thats not Wounds management. Or strategic. Thats just "you have 6 Wounds up or your Apoc does less damage." Nothing about that is strategy. Knowing when to Festering Strike outside of Apoc (based current number of Wounds, runes available, current DT uptime etc) is strategic.

Just get rid of Apoc and Garg/DA and make AotD's CD 3 mins.

Ok let's assume you are correct. Apocalypse is more complex than aotd, as there is at least 1 more condition required (and it's used multpile times per fight).

Given that, why remove it? But in reality it's dishonest to say that there is "no strategy" behind it. Is it gonna be off CD soon? Ok build 6 wounds. Is it off CD and I have 6 wounds? Pop it right before kingaroths switch to phase two - you waste half the duration running to the add.

Another. You have 6 wounds and apoc off CD. Should you wait until after you pop arbiter so that bursting the wounds and casting apoc fills runic power for arbiter?

That is strategic.

[Rothulean1]

Not strategic. Its simply "you have X or you dont." Apoc off CD? Use it. You very rarely wait. Apoc isnt anymore interesting to activate than AotD.

Stick with the iconic spell.

[franksredhot]

Not strategic. Its simply "you have X or you dont." Apoc off CD? Use it. You very rarely wait. Apoc isnt anymore interesting to activate than AotD.

Stick with the iconic spell.

I definitely expect to have opinions that differ from mine. However I think that this disagreement is from first principles (basically, what constitutes something being strategic). We're just arguing about the definition of something, and the minimum possible requirements for a spell to be complex enough to be used strategically.

When you say "Apoc off CD? Use it. You very rarely wait." - that's not taking into account any of the variables needed to optimize the spell. That quote doesn't even say whether 6 wounds are up, or if the boss is in an invulnerable phase.

Every spell in the game can be placed along some spectrum, say, from <zero thought at all> to <using this correctly determines success or failure>. If we can at least agree on that, I think it's obvious that AOTD is more to the left end and Apoc more to the right end.

If we can't agree on that, then it's definitely going to be hard for me to see where you're coming from.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You argument is literally applicable to 90% of the dps abilities with a cooldown. Besides, as the weapon talents showed, you can have the ghouls apply something. There is lots of ways to make this cooldown actually a bit more involved. Blizzard just needs to actually care about it..

Btw, my guess why the ability has this long cooldown essentially boils down to it's history. 10 Minute CDs were disabled by default in arenas, my guess is that they kept it like that for a while and now just no one questions why it needs this atrociously long cooldown anymore.

[franksredhot]

You argument is literally applicable to 90% of the dps abilities with a cooldown. Besides, as the weapon talents showed, you can have the ghouls apply something. There is lots of ways to make this cooldown actually a bit more involved. Blizzard just needs to actually care about it..

Btw, my guess why the ability has this long cooldown essentially boils down to it's history. 10 Minute CDs were disabled by default in arenas, my guess is that they kept it like that for a while and now just no one questions why it needs this atrociously long cooldown anymore.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that the whole #stopThePrune had a lot to do with people disliking boring abilities in favor of ones that are possible to be bad at.

There's definitely a balance though, and I think feral druid was on the other end of that. The fdruid community was making the case that, if the raid bosses we're going to be as involved (heavy mechanics) as they are - that playing s feral correctly needs to pay off. It's already hard to play that spec standing still, and during a raid it's maybe the most technically difficult spec in the game. Blizzard added an easier talent build and some people seem to like it.

But you're right, I think that there are many abilities that are just "press this when it's off a timer". What I don't agree with is the other posts claiming that aotd and apoc are both equally as mundane. I think that's either straw-manning the situation or actually not understanding the abilities.

[Rothulean1]

When you say "Apoc off CD? Use it. You very rarely wait." - that's not taking into account any of the variables needed to optimize the spell. That quote doesn't even say whether 6 wounds are up, or if the boss is in an invulnerable phase.

I sorta figured I didnt need to explain that, tbh. Not trying to be rude but it seems like you thought my statement applied to every boss in every situation. Clearly you dont Apoc with 1 wound or the boss invulnerable...

Again, I dont think I need to point that out.

All things being equal...Apoc is a lesser AotD with a melee hit that requires an annoying Wound amount to activate. No thanks. Stick with the spell weve had since the beginning.

[franksredhot]

I sorta figured I didnt need to explain that, tbh. Not trying to be rude but it seems like you thought my statement applied to every boss in every situation. Clearly you dont Apoc with 1 wound or the boss invulnerable...

Again, I dont think I need to point that out.

All things being equal...Apoc is a lesser AotD with a melee hit that requires an annoying Wound amount to activate. No thanks. Stick with the spell weve had since the beginning.

Well, so now this is a totally different argument. You're no longer saying that it isn't adding complexity to the rotation. You're just saying that you don't like it. That's fine if you don't - but there are other specs that allow you to simplify your play style if that's what you're looking for.

[Arabus80]

i'd love to see T20 boni become a baseline passive, (the cd reduction part)

[Rothulean1]

"Hit Apoc at 6 wounds" or "Make sure Apoc will actually do damage" is a very very very very long way from "complexity." Thats the real life equivalent of "dont eat tide pods." Knowing the answer to "should I Apoc on an invulnerable boss?" is pretty much one of the least complex decisions in WoW.

Good luck on your crusade though. Youre definitely trying real hard.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

I bet AOTD will be given to necromancers whenever they become available. that's when it'll be removed

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I miss Army of the Dead as a tanking CD. I used to use it for a brief respite when things were falling apart. Gave me time top off my health and get some CDs back.

Not that BDKs are lacking for survival CDs - far from it - but AotD was a fun one.

[tru]

Thats literally every single dps cooldown in the game.

Press once for the entire encounter cd? Other than heroism...surrender to madness? Who else has a one hit wonder per encounter?

[Hellrime]

I'm not sure why it's staying in the game. It's a "do more damage" button you press once. As far as strategy is concerned, the only I can think of is the off-chance that you forget to press it during to pull timer.

I'm not clever enough to think of an alternative, but if they keep Apocalypse I don't really see the point of AoTD.

It's an iconic talent for the DK and absolutely should stay. Individuals with only 59 posts and most likely /played on a DK dates only back to MoP shouldn't interject opinion on DKs.