Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Hubbl3]

We had a simple tool to check it all in TBC, so no mate, while I get where you're coming from, it won't solve anything.

The only solution is to make content fun and not something people want to get out of the way as soon as possible.

Refresh my memory, what was that tool?

[ToxicFlame]

no, it still wouldn't. People would go back to pre gearscore days where you had to go to main-hub bank or similarly and get inspected or else you get kicked. Players are always going to look for overgeared players no matter how difficult it is to determine that.

[MrHappy]

if only the game had a tool where you can create your own group and inv who you want and make your own rules......if only.

[plagueshard801]

This is what has stopped me from playing lately. I came back to the game and hit a wall when trying to raid or run M+ because of no achievements and no inflated item level. I haven't raided since wrath, but I have some respectable achievements from that time and earlier: tribute to insanity, glory of the raider/ulduar raider, hand of a'dal title, etc, all of them earned when that was the top tier content. I'm not really convinced current raids are that much harder, especially normal mode FFS. Am I wrong?

[Noxina]

It's ALOT of a difference when one tries and when one slacks. And this is just the point I am trying to prove. These logs are bad cause I didn't play good that particular raid. I was most likely in Hearthstone or other games tabbed with these kills, which I am alot. This raid bores me to tears and I have found chill groups that don't care if one dies or slack. Like, I am very aware of the dog slack, I stand still, don't move an inch and dps, while tabbing between hearthstone, and use cloak when I can, hoping the healers deal with my slack meanwhile, they didn't, and I died.

Yes, this is a shitty attitude and people may dislike this, but like I said, I don't like this raid and I don't care much about the kills, nor am I trying to prove anything.

BUT!!!

If I wanted, If I truly tried, if I needed to perform, I am quite capeable of doing so, and recently, I cleared all of the raid, performing quite good and winning lots of Single target fights. OF COURSE, just like my normal luck, No one logged THAT one.... so I'm stuck with the horrible slack logs.

Yes, people might not want a slacker like me, BUT again, I don't always slack and what I CAN do should matter more than what I did in some run I was semi afk in.

A clear example is Garothi, it shows on logs my best attempt was 1,6mil dps. Yesterday, I killed him, with 1,9mil dps, and that was not logged. So yeah, this is crazy frustrating.

How does it feel to be called out on your bullshit? This little convo is the exact reason we can't judge someone from what they say in wispers. I'd do the same, check you up on logs and see how dog shit you really are, then decide you wouldn't even be worth a reply. There are 10000 other DPS to pick from anyways, and most likely some of those don't play Heartstone while doing a raid.

[Marrilaife]

This is what has stopped me from playing lately. I came back to the game and hit a wall when trying to raid or run M+ because of no achievements and no inflated item level. I haven't raided since wrath, but I have some respectable achievements from that time and earlier: tribute to insanity, glory of the raider/ulduar raider, hand of a'dal title, etc, all of them earned when that was the top tier content.

Bet you haven't gotten these in pugs. Having a guild that you raid regularly with removes problems like getting raidspot, getting geared main, getting curve etc. Alts can start from there and many guilds have alt runs. M+ is a mixed bag I've been in several guilds in legion and only my current one has some people running m+ regularly and even that is a low amount. But it's not much of a prob as long as handful of us has keys we pug the rest into our key. People are lining up like for fresh bread.

Wotlk pug experience in a nutshell was like this: "must have this much gearscore to enter, clear 4 bosses in icc 25 man normal, raid lead ninjas deathbringer's will and tier token, leaves and group disbands". You wanted to raid properly, you had a guild.

[nocturnus]

Refresh my memory, what was that tool?

Oof, I can't remember the exact name. I know it started out as a website. Not long after they released an addon that made it somewhat easier to gather information. Could it have been something like 'gearscore' or 'wowheroes' or something? Or am I confusing addons now? It's been a while.

[Hubbl3]

Gearscore was considered a good addon to check someones potential performance? o.o

[nocturnus]

Gearscore was considered a good addon to check someones potential performance? o.o

I don't know. Was it?

Regardless, I think you missed the point. I'll explain it again, just in case: Removing ilvl from your character sheet will not solve the fact that people base invites on it in order to rush through content they feel forced to do. They will just find another way to gather the needed information.

[Azerate]

The complaint is of course valid to some extent, the thing is it's always been like that.

The only solution is to join a guild, and it's a good one. Yes it requires effort and some mingling with other people, but even the worst players can do content that way, and enjoy the game doing so.

[Noxina]

The complaint is of course valid to some extent, the thing is it's always been like that.

The only solution is to join a guild, and it's a good one. Yes it requires effort and some mingling with other people, but even the worst players can do content that way, and enjoy the game doing so.

There is one more solution - stop bitching and make your own group where you invite whomever you want, just to realize it is a reason PUG leaders ask for Curve for Normal clears. Most players are monkeys with zero clue at what they are doing.

[Swampmoose]

OK, I bet you two tokens that you can't get 95% on all bosses until sunday. Unlimited trys. Thats 600k gold right there. WCL has a quick guide how to log, so no excuses.
@Garothi: i don't care about normal tunnel logs if i build a HC group. Your best attempt there is from yesterday at 1,66mil DPS or 49% (so pretty average). Sadly you ditched that pug after hounds. But I agree, alt runs where people won't remove me if I slack are way more comfortable.

Not really a fair bet . It's easy to tell when someone is standing in stuff. That's a personal problem. When it comes to hitting those top 5% numbers, it's just as much a reflection of raid dps, deaths, lust timing, etc. as it is the individual's personal performance. Likelihood of hitting top 5% in a PUG is slim to none. In a well organized guild that performs well above average as a whole, it's achievable.

This is what has stopped me from playing lately. I came back to the game and hit a wall when trying to raid or run M+ because of no achievements and no inflated item level. I haven't raided since wrath, but I have some respectable achievements from that time and earlier: tribute to insanity, glory of the raider/ulduar raider, hand of a'dal title, etc, all of them earned when that was the top tier content. I'm not really convinced current raids are that much harder, especially normal mode FFS. Am I wrong?

Nope. All raids work exactly the same. Gearscore came into play at the end of Wrath and it's been this way since. Outgear the raid so PUGs can survive it, or join a guild and progress the old fashioned way.

[Deleted]

Not really a fair bet . It's easy to tell when someone is standing in stuff. That's a personal problem. When it comes to hitting those top 5% numbers, it's just as much a reflection of raid dps, deaths, lust timing, etc. as it is the individual's personal performance. Likelihood of hitting top 5% in a PUG is slim to none. In a well organized guild that performs well above average as a whole, it's achievable.

He is a former raider of a mythic guild and runs in their alt runs. Maybe he donates just 300k and gets his 2 tokens. There is a little bit of risk left for me.

[Battlebeard]

We had a simple tool to check it all in TBC, so no mate, while I get where you're coming from, it won't solve anything.

The only solution is to make content fun and not something people want to get out of the way as soon as possible.

Well yeah, more fun raids would solve some things, but not everything.

I think that the raids need to share loot, meaning if you looted a boss on Heroic, you can't get loot on Normal. This would make less high geared farm Normal for possible TF/WF or a specific trinket or something. And if less high geared does Normal as an example, the ilvl needed to join will HAVE to drop, or groups would never fill, and we have less of these riddicilously high ilvl demanding groups. Or simply make the ilvl difference between the difficulty higher, to give less incentive to do raids that are too easy for you.

- - - Updated - - -

How does it feel to be called out on your bullshit? This little convo is the exact reason we can't judge someone from what they say in wispers. I'd do the same, check you up on logs and see how dog shit you really are, then decide you wouldn't even be worth a reply. There are 10000 other DPS to pick from anyways, and most likely some of those don't play Heartstone while doing a raid.

Well, you compare "tryharding" with skill, which is not the same. If a Method raider slacked a lot, would that make him a bad raider? No, it would make him a slacking good raider. Logs doesn't tell the one viewing it any context. Logs assume everyone is a tryhard who always try to do their best. That's why it's a problem.

[Deleted]

Logs assume everyone is a tryhard who always try to do their best. That's why it's a problem.

I assume (just like "Logs assume") you are a slacker trying to feed off of others who don't waste other people's time by slacking off while hoping others will carry them. You do that. You waste other peoples' time and effort by contributing way less than you (self-stated) could. You stated it yourself. Your attitude is what's wrong. Not the game or others.

[Battlebeard]

I assume (just like "Logs assume") you are a slacker trying to feed off of others who don't waste other people's time by slacking off while hoping others will carry them. You do that. You waste other peoples' time and effort by contributing way less then you (self-stated) could. You stated it yourself. Your attitude is what's wrong. Not the game or others.

Not as severly as you make it seem. I do slack, but not to the degree that it causes wipe or that it makes me last on DPS. As an example, I did 1,3million on a boss that got logged during a slacky try. It was 7th on DPS and we killed the boss without any problem, BUT I also killed the same boss, while focused, and did 1,8million which of course was not logged. This is the problem, logs aren't fair.

And I'm not feeding or getting carried, I just don't focus that much or tryhard. My slack is never really causing any problem, only a few deaths very rarely, but so far I caused 0 wipes. But when I actually try, I do very good, which sadly isn't proved with these inconsistent logs.

I guess I have to log a few good runs myself, to improve my "reputation" so to speak, however, this would go against my principles, as I think the system is bad and I don't want to use it.

[Deleted]

If you do 1.3 instead of 1.8 you waste other peoples' time and should be removed from any group. Someone has to deliver those 0.5 you are not delivering. Someone has to spend more time tanking for the whole group. Someone has to spend more time healing you and others. Only because you cba to actually play the game. I wanted to insert some calculations how much more time it is, but you know - it's against my principles to discuss with your "principles". Just making sure people on this board learned enough about you already.

I rather take someone who does 1.5 and it's his constant top delivery than you, with a "could do 1.8" but doing almost 1/3 less dmg overall because you cba to actually play the game. Revelation: others cba to play with people with your "principles". I sure do.

[Zephire]

What is this? Battlebeard (BB for short!) saying something along: "I'll do my job and I do it well" to get into raids when a bit lower than wanted ilvl. Other people goes and check logs for BB then call lier and fake.

I'm not that experienced with logs. Do every try get logged? Are you just looking for failures in logs? No regards to how important it was to move out of fire? Did you check BBs first attempt on boss X?

Why so judgemental? When I'm undergeared I make sure I don't fuck up (that much) but the better gear (toughness) I have, the more I tend to slack on mechanics (except raid wiping mechanics like on Varimathras HC). I don't have to focus 100%. Especially when the other raiders have similar gear. We'll handle or might even be required to hold the damage due to some mechanic. If needed, I step it up, off course.

You act as if BB is an elite athlet playing with kids. Of course BB won't run as fast as possible when competing with the kids, BB will adjust the speed to make the kids happy but still fast enough to make them awestruck. Though you guys keep arguing that BB should in fact destroy the kids dreams by rushing at the speed of sound. "YOU'LL NEVER CATCH ME! WEAKLINGS!".

A job might require you to have insane skills and experience but they might still recruit people they think fit but lack said skill and experience. That's how I look at the "<insert higher ilvl than what drops>" requirement. You still ask to come and they might say yes even though you're not that godly geared. Or they might say no. There's also several alt-runs going that could maybe invite you.

Well yeah, more fun raids would solve some things, but not everything.

I think that the raids need to share loot, meaning if you looted a boss on Heroic, you can't get loot on Normal. This would make less high geared farm Normal for possible TF/WF or a specific trinket or something. And if less high geared does Normal as an example, the ilvl needed to join will HAVE to drop, or groups would never fill, and we have less of these riddicilously high ilvl demanding groups. Or simply make the ilvl difference between the difficulty higher, to give less incentive to do raids that are too easy for you.

This would probably be the case. Unsure how I'd feel about that but it's a good point.

[nocturnus]

Well yeah, more fun raids would solve some things, but not everything.

I think that the raids need to share loot, meaning if you looted a boss on Heroic, you can't get loot on Normal. This would make less high geared farm Normal for possible TF/WF or a specific trinket or something. And if less high geared does Normal as an example, the ilvl needed to join will HAVE to drop, or groups would never fill, and we have less of these riddicilously high ilvl demanding groups. Or simply make the ilvl difference between the difficulty higher, to give less incentive to do raids that are too easy for you.

I'm not talking about makeing more "fun raids". Most raids are fun the first two or three times. Afterwards it becomes a boring chore most players would skip if their compulsive need for 'moar lewt' wasn't that strong. I'm talking about making raids fun in general and not something you only do out of greed.

Blizzard would sooner remove raids (which will probably happen) rather than making such a significant change in vision, since WoW's whole replay value is based on the carrot-on-a-stick principle.

[sirethas]

Not as severly as you make it seem. I do slack, but not to the degree that it causes wipe or that it makes me last on DPS. As an example, I did 1,3million on a boss that got logged during a slacky try. It was 7th on DPS and we killed the boss without any problem, BUT I also killed the same boss, while focused, and did 1,8million which of course was not logged. This is the problem, logs aren't fair.

And I'm not feeding or getting carried, I just don't focus that much or tryhard. My slack is never really causing any problem, only a few deaths very rarely, but so far I caused 0 wipes. But when I actually try, I do very good, which sadly isn't proved with these inconsistent logs.

I guess I have to log a few good runs myself, to improve my "reputation" so to speak, however, this would go against my principles, as I think the system is bad and I don't want to use it.

So I took liberation of checking your log, since it can show more than just you don't dodge stuff, it also shows you don't understand your spec as well, and this isn't tryharding in any means, it's a basic stuff which, as you said you are experienced, would do even if you are slacking.

First of all, you use Nightstalker talent yet you never vanished for 50%+ damage Envenom.
Your Kingsbane usage is terrible, you don't realise (or simply don't care) that with Sinister Circulation trait you can do 2 Kingsbanes between Vendetta, you basically cut your Kingsbane damage in half (which is quite a lot).

To evaluate your slack, you cost your group extra 10 seconds of fight on Varimathras. Let's say it's same slack on all bosses, in Antorus it adds up to 110 seconds only boss fights. Trash is hard to evaluate so I will just ignore that. Let's say you create group of dps like you. Normaly you have 14 dps in raid and if all of them slacked to cost 10 seconds of boss fight, that's 2 minutes per boss which results in 22 minutes in total. Now if you don't call that waste of time, I don't know what you do. Don't feel like you can slack just because someone picks it up for you, relying on others or just simply bs.

It's these little things which makes big difference even when you are slacking. You don't have to mash your board and time everything perfectly, but misusing (or not using) your CDs at all is just lack of skill. And on top of that, you said you would take anyone without hesitation if he/she whispered you that nice fairy tale you wrote down (which was proven to not be true at all levels). Do you also believe that Earth is flat? Do you basically believe people just by what they tell you?

These addons and logs might not be perfect, hence they might not be good at all, but ilvl at least gives you genearl idea of the potential of ones character and logs will you give you general idea of ones performance. And if I invite you after that fairly tale you wrote down and you will slack with 1.3m dps while you are capable of easily doing 1.8mil I would kick your ass from raid in a blink of a eye as it's disrespectful in all means if you are slacking while there are others who commit to the raid. You want to slack in raid? Well create your own slack group, hell there are even groups in LFG which are labeled as "slack" groups or w/e. In my experience 90% of those fail hard because no one really tries and it leads to wipes.