The Old God and the Sea

[Aquamonkey]

As of currently, though it is not directly stated anywhere just alluded to, that titans are stronger than c'thun and what not, while void lords are either equal or stronger than them, given that they can corrupt a titan and that void titan or w.e can destroy the entire universe (given how legion has taken on the look on the light and the void, destroy here might not mean exactly as we think it means but different).

Void lords can't do anything to titans. They tried and failed. That's why they created the Old Gods to corrupt unborn titans.

[KrakHed]

I dunno, man. I feel like you're almost cunning with the way you present your info. You outright said Aucald had a limited view of hiveminds when he called you on being incorrect about the Mantid. You originally came out saying they were a hivemind. Then, when presented with reasonable evidence to disprove your statement, you changed your tune to "...immature Mantid BEHAVE like a hivemind." slowly but surely backing out, covering your tracks.

Then let me explain. I never brought up the subject of Mantid nor cited them as an example of a hivemind. So when disproved as a hivemind, I made my first comment regarding the Mantid. They aren't, and I don't believe they are. But I made the mistake of mentioning I believed they had vestigial traits associated with a hivemind.

Then you decided to make this some kind of argument on be backtracking. I have literally never changed my stance on any issue. Never shown an ounce of this "cunning" you claim. I have clarified, because I apparently have to be highly specific with every word I use or else I'll be misunderstood. I say "others" and it becomes "other Old Gods" in their minds. I bring up old Aqir lore purely as an example of how Blizzard writers treat certain concepts, and someone brings up the Mantid. Since I didn't bring up the Mantid, I didn't feel like saying much about them.

I already realized the Mantid were not a hivemind, and would only ever have brought them up in context of them not being a hivemind but resembling them in some facets. I suppose I just shouldn't have commented on that post at all. It had nothing to do with what was being discussed, except maybe tangentially.

And yes, I will return condescension with condescension. I have seen different depictions of hiveminds. This is not my claim to superior intelligence or possessing higher intellect and cosmic awareness. This is me saying "I've read different books than you, and they don't match your definitions".

All of this stemmed from ONE Faceless mob you encountered in an unfinished part of the game has ambiguous allegiances to possibly two different Old Gods,

And no, this theory stems from multiple mobs in multiple parts of the game, both finished and unfinished, and me observing the general associated trends and themes. As well as the language used.

So none of your passive-aggressive bullshit like "have a good one". If you disagree, find an actual point to disagree on and discuss it.

[Hctaz]

Exactly this. I wish people were not narrow-minded and only excited about spikes and Demons or whatever <insert Horde meme>. Old God fantasy is truly about mystery, even within the WoW universe.

Well, they kinda ruined it by making them minions of the void. I understand their connections, but I really wish they had simply kept the Old Gods as a third and more mysterious entity. Something not necessarily related to the void.

[KrakHed]

i agree. it is because the devs changed i believe around cata time and different power levels were established. for example the point you mention about c'thun battling a titan was part of the silithus book before. but then it was changed in chronicle 1 that he never faced an actual titan.

As of currently, though it is not directly stated anywhere just alluded to, that titans are stronger than c'thun and what not, while void lords are either equal or stronger than them, given that they can corrupt a titan and that void titan or w.e can destroy the entire universe (given how legion has taken on the look on the light and the void, destroy here might not mean exactly as we think it means but different).

I believe that they will eventually flesh out a power level for the void lords but use the backdoor that since the void is ever changing ever moving and complete chaos the line is blurred.

Either way its interesting stuff, hopefully they do them justice unlike how Sargeras was dealth with. So many years of waiting only to finally see him in actuality for 5 seconds as he fumbles around for a spaceship.

The current lore for Void Lords is that we have only ever seen manifestations of their power, and that's likely all we'll ever see for now. "Fragments, shadows; the faintest of echoes", as Xal'atath puts it. That leaves Blizzard room to use Void Lords at practically any power level they care to, with the excuse that it was only a greater or lesser manifestation. Not the full thing for one reason or another.

As such, a "Void Lord" could be something you solo in a quest. A "Void Lord" has been something you solo in a quest multiple times, and I mean that for beings associated with the big Void Lords from Chronicles. It could also be much more.

[Enkrypt]

Then let me explain. I never brought up the subject of Mantid nor cited them as an example of a hivemind. So when disproved as a hivemind, I made my first comment regarding the Mantid. They aren't, and I don't believe they are. But I made the mistake of mentioning I believed they had vestigial traits associated with a hivemind.

Actually, you were the first to bring the Mantid into the discussion. Here is the exact post where you brought them up:

Not any longer, sure. Y'Shaarj hasn't been plugged into their brains for a long, long time. However, the immature Mantid still behave as a hive.

There is no prior mentioning of the Mantid before you made this statement, and your latest post asserts that you don't "backtrack" when you very obviously do backtrack. I'm not going to sully this thread even more by citing each individual incident of this. The above alone is proof enough, for me.

If I haven't made it clear enough, I'm done discussing this with you. I think you make things up as you go along to appear as if you're all-knowing while condescending others who actually present facts, not just anecdotal speculation branded as "knowledge". There's a problem when everyone seemingly misunderstands information your presenting. It's because it's not true.

End of discussion. Again, have a good night, sir.

[KrakHed]

Actually, you were the first to bring the Mantid into the discussion. Here is the exact post where you brought them up:

There is no prior mentioning of the Mantid before you made this statement, and your latest post asserts that you don't "backtrack" when you very obviously do backtrack. I'm not going to sully this thread even more by citing each individual incident of this. The above alone is proof enough, for me.

If I haven't made it clear enough, I'm done discussing this with you. I think you make things up as you go along to appear as if you're all-knowing while condescending others who actually present facts, not just anecdotal speculation branded as "knowledge". There's a problem when everyone seemingly misunderstands information your presenting. It's because it's not true.

End of discussion. Again, have a good night, sir.

Actually...

That's not a hivemind. Distinct identities means it's not a hivemind.

Also, Blizzard literally said they don't operate as a hive mind.

The Mantid are an intelligent and highly evolved race of insect-like creatures who have menaced the people of Pandaria since prehistoric times. While their society has a queen, they don't operate as a hive mind. (Source)

This is the first mention of Mantid, actually. The post I was responding to. I did not bring up Mantid. I responded to a post about Mantid. The argument that distinct identities don't exist in a hivemind was just clear nonsense, as different portrayals of hiveminds do have them, so I decided to make a short comment on how I saw Mantid. Who were never brought up until this post. It was an irrelevant tangent, where I implied they may have once been a hivemind.

Now instead of calling you sir, I'm not going to be a passive aggressive ass. Either stop twisting the order of the conversation or go fuck yourself.

If this is your argument for me twisting facts, then this is my argument for how you misportray everything I mention. If you latch onto the most insane interpretation of what someone says, it'll seem insane. However, I'd rather you not argue with my imaginary insane doppelganger.

I have not backtracked once, and I will not backtrack. I have clarified idiotic portrayals of what I've said. It is hard to keep track of what you think I said, so this is admittedly frustrating. I never claimed to be all-knowing. I've been saying things I consider to be simple fucking concepts a monkey should be able to grasp.

So I will condescend to someone who calls me crazy for suggesting a simple idea and forces me to make an overelaborate explanation for an idea that takes a solitary brain cell to understand, because they keep milking out some outright retarded idea from it. I can tell when someone is willfully trying to not understand an idea.

Even if they don't agree, most people understand the idea a lot quicker than any of you do, and I don't have to constantly clarify a bunch of little points because most people don't actively try to misunderstand.

No, instead I have to clarify my use of plural was plural, because Old Gods war with one another. Someone has to assume I'm retarded to think I didn't know that or take it into account, and my use of plural meant that I thought they were different hives. Someone not assuming I'm retarded would understand what I meant instantly, and there would be no need to clarify further.

In such a case, I could actually have an honest disagreement and interesting discussion.

[ohwell]

Who says what part? That Il'gynoth is a growth of N'zoth? Xal'atath says that. She also calls the Faceless One in the Violet Hold a pustule of his, though he used to be connected to Yogg-Saron considering it stopped moving after Yoggy was defeated. In Nazmir questing, a Faceless One is summoned as the Avatar of G'huun, but has a separate name and refers to G'huun as a separate entity, while also claiming to speak for G'huun. The fact a Faceless One went comatose after Yogg was killed also shows they're only semi-independent.

The reasonable conclusion is that it's just as Xal'atath says. These beings are parts of their God. If this pattern continues even higher up the rungs, then it's easily possible that Old Gods are just part of the Void Lords. Localized semi-autonomous avatars.

A&T audio thingie pretty much says we can only believe 1 thing the void servants show us per a larger quantity. They show one truth with many lies surrounding it.

[KrakHed]

A&T audio thingie pretty much says we can only believe 1 thing the void servants show us per a larger quantity. They show one truth with many lies surrounding it.

Sure. But for the sake of storytelling, it's easier to assume some idea is actually being implied by everything they say and that it's not all written to just be disconnected nonsense. At least not at the time it was written.

[Minikin]

Void lords can't do anything to titans. They tried and failed. That's why they created the Old Gods to corrupt unborn titans.

i know thats what i meant. that they couldnt manifest themselves into this plane as per the chronicle. so they sent out manifestations of themselves randomly into the great dark hoping to infect and hit a world soul and thus corrupt it into a being that would do what they would like to do in this plane since they themselves cant get here.

just couldnt type all that out in the actual post cuz i felt it was moving slightly away from what i was trying to say.

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The current lore for Void Lords is that we have only ever seen manifestations of their power, and that's likely all we'll ever see for now. "Fragments, shadows; the faintest of echoes", as Xal'atath puts it. That leaves Blizzard room to use Void Lords at practically any power level they care to, with the excuse that it was only a greater or lesser manifestation. Not the full thing for one reason or another.

As such, a "Void Lord" could be something you solo in a quest. A "Void Lord" has been something you solo in a quest multiple times, and I mean that for beings associated with the big Void Lords from Chronicles. It could also be much more.

yea. it leaves a lot of room for them to make it what they want it to be, which is cool. I really like how locus walker has shown the opposite side of the light from the void's perspective.

it rings very close to how they dealt with the xelnaga in the starcraft universe. perhaps WE end up going into their dimension. there is some clue into that regarding that short comic strip about anduin and velen. It looks like they are in a spaceship.

But with all that we circle back to your initial point. Their lore is fairly inconsistent. Hopefully we get a nice story from it.

[KrakHed]

i know thats what i meant. that they couldnt manifest themselves into this plane as per the chronicle. so they sent out manifestations of themselves randomly into the great dark hoping to infect and hit a world soul and thus corrupt it into a being that would do what they would like to do in this plane since they themselves cant get here.

just couldnt type all that out in the actual post cuz i felt it was moving slightly away from what i was trying to say.

I could tell. That's the benefit of not immediately assuming people are stupid.

yea. it leaves a lot of room for them to make it what they want it to be, which is cool. I really like how locus walker has shown the opposite side of the light from the void's perspective.

it rings very close to how they dealt with the xelnaga in the starcraft universe. perhaps WE end up going into their dimension. there is some clue into that regarding that short comic strip about anduin and velen. It looks like they are in a spaceship.

But with all that we circle back to your initial point. Their lore is fairly inconsistent. Hopefully we get a nice story from it.

Well, there are certain things that are somewhat consistent in the lore, though not entirely so. The consistencies tend to be the ideas behind the lore. Blizzard tends to loosely remember their ideas and reuse them. Even the obscure ones. The idea about Demons respawning in the Nether that so many cry "Retcon" at? That was a fairly old lore idea, however obscure.

The whole necessity of balance between Light and Void dates back to the RPG, though Shadow was the preferred title back then. Brought up again in TBC, the Warcraft Magazine, WoD, and so on. It's an old idea that didn't get much visibility before, but it looks like it's getting the spotlight now. I expect that however we deal with the Void will keep in mind the idea of remaining in balance with Light.

When looking through the various Void lore and flavor text, I get the clear impression that at least one writer is actually interested in what they're doing. Even making occultic references in what appears to be their depictions of Void Lords. If those are the guys writing them once they get the spotlight, then we can expect some neat ideas. Or at least ideas written by someone who cares.

Someone in the writing staff caring is usually a good sign for that thing getting development, though sometimes that gets us a dead Warchief and Sylvanas put in place.

[Traveler Voltin]

Old gods are not special

[Deleted]

Old Gods are shrouded in mystery.. THAT's why people obsess over them. Including me!

Oh yeah! Especially with all the datamining going on, such secrecy and mystery!

Because I am a H. P. Lovecraft fanatic and any nod towards his works and extended universe gets my imagination racing.

Except WoW turned Old Gods into something you can hit with a sword, HP Lovecraft would be turning in his grave

[Benomatic]

Old gods are not special

Why not? Any additional follow up to that? Would you care to elucidate?

[Felixon]

Well,it appears,that the whole Old god theme is more psychologically frightening than the Burning Legion - THE LEGION CONQUERS ALL theme,where the whole faction is portrayed as failing diletants,who wouldn't be able to a shit without the KJ and Gul'dan.Just look at the "Stranger things" series - people love that show (including me),cause there're so many D&D references and the unknown darkness looming in a paralel dimension,trying to conquer the present world.I think,that humans brain is constructed the way,that it fears the things it doesn't know and the things it doesn't understand.

[Benomatic]

Well,it appears,that the whole Old god theme is more psychologically frightening than the Burning Legion - THE LEGION CONQUERS ALL theme,where the whole faction is portrayed as failing diletants,who wouldn't be able to a shit without the KJ and Gul'dan.Just look at the "Stranger things" series - people love that show (including me),cause there're so many D&D references and the unknown darkness looming in a paralel dimension,trying to conquer the present world.I think,that humans brain is constructed the way,that it fears the things it doesn't know and the things it doesn't understand.

Basically an abstract entity beyond our mortal comprehension manipulating our truths and fears? A very Lovecraftian aspect you would say?

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Oh yeah! Especially with all the datamining going on, such secrecy and mystery!



Except WoW turned Old Gods into something you can hit with a sword, HP Lovecraft would be turning in his grave

The Deep Ones and Shoggoths are physical entities. The Old Ones have always been described as either mountains of flesh who grow like cancers and also endless whispers of maddening torment.

[Deleted]

Kinda tired of all this "Old God" stuff before it even becomes a expension/patch/whatever...

Why are people so damn obsessed with these Old Gods. Is that what you want to fight? Tentacles, Teeth, Eyes, purple slime?
Sounds so boring.

Because it's a cult topic invented by Lovecraft. :3

[Deleted]

Basically an abstract entity beyond our mortal comprehension manipulating our truths and fears? A very Lovecraftian aspect you would say?

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The Deep Ones and Shoggoths are physical entities. The Old Ones have always been described as either mountains of flesh who grow like cancers and also endless whispers of maddening torment.

I'm aware, and that's fine, but all of the mystery, all of the horror, the whispers, the unfathomable incomprehensible shapes, maddening to even lay eyes upon, the meaninglessness of struggling against these cosmic behemoths, the futility of even existing at all, which let's be honest is more what HP Lovecraft is about than simply "It's a big fuckoff squidboi homie" goes straight out the window the moment you slap a health bar on Yogg Saron and beat him to death with 25 of your mates while meming in Discord.

Blizzard handled the old gods so poorly, so poorly in fact that they had to introduce Void Lords to be what their minions should have been, or to introduce a new big bad guy now that we took out Sargeras in Legion, that's up for debate.

We should have fought minions of the old gods, not the old gods themselves.

I mean for fuck's sake people are calling Xal'Atath for "Knaifu" I mean come on homies.

That being said, they're one of my favourite antagonists too, only surpassed by ourselves.



Also Aluneth > Xal'Atath

fite me

[Benomatic]

I'm aware, and that's fine, but all of the mystery, all of the horror, the whispers, the unfathomable incomprehensible shapes, maddening to even lay eyes upon, the meaninglessness of struggling against these cosmic behemoths, the futility of even existing at all, which let's be honest is more what HP Lovecraft is about than simply "It's a big fuckoff squidboi homie" goes straight out the window the moment you slap a health bar on Yogg Saron and beat him to death with 25 of your mates while meming in Discord.

Blizzard handled the old gods so poorly, so poorly in fact that they had to introduce Void Lords to be what their minions should have been, or to introduce a new big bad guy now that we took out Sargeras in Legion, that's up for debate.

We should have fought minions of the old gods, not the old gods themselves.

That being said, they're one of my favourite antagonists too, only surpassed by ourselves.

I wholly agree about their handling by Blizzard and how the mystery has been ruined. The Void Lords seem like a total cop out.

I would have honestly preferred the Old Gods themselves to be the mind meld riddlers of corruption and deceit. Instead its a constant topic of debate of flip flopping. Are they really defeated? Will they come back? Will we see anything of the black empire?

Can N'Zoth resurrect C'thun and Yogg-Saron? Instead we are lead to believe that the Old Gods are simply pawns themselves.

Less is more is simply better at the time. The retcons have turned them in to disposable lackeys.

I really want to see more of the black empire.

The kids in Elwynn for example who when congregating start the eerie whispers is a brilliant Easter egg.

[KrakHed]

Oh yeah! Especially with all the datamining going on, such secrecy and mystery!

Except WoW turned Old Gods into something you can hit with a sword, HP Lovecraft would be turning in his grave

Depends on the Old God. He had quite a few. Cthulhu got rammed by a boat. He also didn't seem to mind things being hit by swords when his buddy was inspired to use his ideas in Conan.

The Deep Ones and Shoggoths are physical entities. The Old Ones have always been described as either mountains of flesh who grow like cancers and also endless whispers of maddening torment.

No, they have not. Endless whispers of maddening torment? Is there any Lovecraft work that uses those? And a mass of flesh growing like a cancer only describes a few things.

[Unholyground]

If you look at the layout there is a big gap between Zandalar and Kul'Trias, I guarantee you Azshara will be one of the final bosses of the expansion and she will raise her palace from the depths as the new zone ala broken shore. This could open up Naga as a neutral race once she is gone as well, they will have no one to follow.