Why arming teachers is not the answer.

[zorkuus]

You don't arm teachers for the same reason you don't require police officers to teach classes, it's not part of their job and not what they are trained for. If you want a police officer at the school, hire police officers to patrol the school.

You have to understand, this is th US. That would cost money and it makes them sad. Asking teachers to buy guns with their own money is what they'll expect.

[Ghostpanther]

It has it's point, but it's more about national identity. Doesn't mean that guns can't be properly regulated without stepping on people that want their guns.

It has a major point. Which is also supported by the highest court in the land here. The right to use firearms for self defense.

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You have to understand, this is th US. That would cost money and it makes them sad. Asking teachers to buy guns with their own money is what they'll expect.

They could use the conceal carry license and the weapon for their own personal use outside the schools. Plus it is a option for them. Not a requirement.

[Hilhen7]

You have to understand, this is th US. That would cost money and it makes them sad. Asking teachers to buy guns with their own money is what they'll expect.

Just add an additional tax on firearms to pay for more security. Let's see what the NRA says about that lol

[Elegiac]

If its such a bad idea and so deadly, why haven't any children in TX schools, where some teachers have legally concealed carry for 10+ years, been gunned down? Shouldn't there be a pile of bodies and blood in the street by now?

Its almost as if this argument is so hyperbolic that if you train with it for 5 minutes, it will make you a Super Sayan without a tail.

I mean, you're ignoring the other points about why it's not appropriate to expect teachers to fulfill this line of duty, or that concealed carry being an option for teachers hasn't really done anything while presenting a significant possible risk. But okay.

[zorkuus]

They could use the conceal carry license and the weapon for their own personal use outside the schools. Plus it is a option for them. Not a requirement.

How does something optional count as a solution to the issue at hand?

[Antiganon]

This article I think sums up the solution perfectly. It not only allows law abiding citizens to keep their guns, it also explains how to practically end all school shootings. If it can work for a country like Israel who had a school shooting problem that is all but gone now then it can work for the US. Before anyone even starts with the "Well we can't afford it." that's bs, stop! If you "can't afford it" then your saying that your children's lives are not worth it and that you are just more interested in taking away the rights of others when it you don't have to to get the same result.

Here's the article: https://townhall.com/columnists/kevi...aytevpromotion

Because you didn't bother to link the steps from your article:

1. Metal Detectors In Every School: This maintains such common sense it's impossible to believe that it doesn’t already happen. This is a bigger failure in the era of post-Columbine than the popularity of the AR-15. How do the largest schools in our nation (Stoneman Douglas is one of the largest at over 3,000 students) not have access points controlled through a metal detector daily? Our courts, government buildings, airports, sports stadiums, conventions, and plenty of other public gatherings demand them.

2. Enforce Everything: Oddly those calling for more laws to be added to the already overly tufted books of law regarding firearms may not realize just how many laws already exist. Simple enforcement of existing laws would cut down on uncounted numbers of people owning guns, possessing guns, and utilizing guns. This is particularly true in the area of those with mental health issues. Begin doing what laws already state must be done, and do so like our children’s lives depend on it.

3. Perform Active Shooter Drills: In many school districts in the nation earthquake drills are performed. No children have died in earthquakes at an American school in years but the drills go forward. “Sequester and Hide” (and then get your cell phone out and begin "facebook-LIVE-ing”) should be replaced with “Barricade, Attack, & Survive.” Young people should be aware of how quickly they can move a teacher’s desk and their own to protect against a shooter. These should be practiced and drilled at minimum in comparison to earthquake drills.

4. Reinforce Doors, Windows, Buses, Locks: Though these things left to themselves were installed and still did not stop the shooter at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Connecticut, they are able to stop some of the carnage. At the Stoneman Douglas high school, the shooter attempted to shoot through the reinforced glass of the classrooms in an attempt to shoot victims outside the building, but was unable to because of the technology of the glass. That piece of hardened, thickened glass saved lives.

5. Recruit Retired Military & Law Enforcement: The number of qualified public safety professionals that live in our communities is surprising. These friends and neighbors have already received certification and weapons training. Most of them (unless they become criminals) are already allowed to own, possess, and carry firearms. Having them operate the access points at all schools, check every backpack and bag carried onto the premises, and engage every threat be it a firearm, a pocketknife or any other form of contraband — would not only ensure a safer school campus, but also a more rule following, law abiding one. Drugs, porn, and other forms of disruptive materials would be filtered out of the school campus environment on the threat of being discovered every day by the school security professional.

6. Arm All Appropriate Personnel: Giving teachers, coaches, and administrators (only the ones who wish to) the right to protect themselves on campus is a backstop to all other methods. But it is a genuine deterrent nonetheless. If only 5-10% of staff were also armed, certified, and properly trained, there would be no threat that first got through the detectors, security professionals, and the hallways that would still be allowed complete and utter access to the student body. Instead of a coach taking bullets, giving up his life to protect his students, numbers of teachers and coaches would be ready to confront any threat that made it to their area of the campus.

7. Publicize Consequence:The mere knowledge of this list of obstacles to any attacker may not completely dissuade them. But since it was readily apparent that this list of steps would have actually saved some if not all of the lives in Florida this week, one thing can be easily understood. Any individual who decides to try something under these guidelines runs a much larger threat of being caught, captured, and killed if he tries it. So talk about it openly. Do the drills, teach the kids to fight for their own survival, tell the predators in advance that if they choose to attack a school it is open war on them, and before they ever have the chance to enter the facility the daunting challenge they will face will likely be a price too steep for them to be willing to pay.

Bolded some of the bat-shit crazy stuff for emphasis.

I do not, under any circumstances, support active shooter drills where students are told to attack. No fucking way. You are telling students to endanger themselves.

I do not, under any circumstances, support armed military personnel checking every backpack that enters a school. First off, that is what a police state looks like. Second off, even if we all magically acquiesced to this Orwellian nightmare, the logistics of implementing it would be insane. It would take hours to get all the students into the building, necessitating longer school days. That would require kids to get up even earlier (my school day started at 7:45, I am imagining trying to get 400 kids with backpacks through a security checkpoint, and assuming the bag checker is fast and does 15 seconds per bag, that's still over an hour and a half of bag checks before the day can begin).

I do not, under any circumstances, support any plan that encourages unqualified faculty to be responsible for carrying firearms and protecting students. If you have not received police or military training for how to handle a hostage or active shooter situation, you are not qualified, and should not be armed on school premises, as you are more likely to injure yourself or an innocent bystander than to actually prevent the shooter from killing someone. Period.

I do not, under any circumstances, support any plan that uses fear of other students as a motivator for reducing school violence. I do not support students or school faculty being told that they may be responsible for killing a shooter. I do not under any fucking circumstances support any plan where the words "open war" are used in the context of a school.

You want better glass and metal detectors? Awesome. 100% on board.
Better enforcement of existing gun laws? Exactly where any discussion of this subject needs to start.
You want armed security officers stationed in schools? Ok fine, I don't think it will really help, but it is not likely to hurt.
I do not want my children surrounded by armed guards and subjected to multiple security checkpoints to enter the school where they are supposed to feel safe.
I do not want my children's teachers to be armed with the intent of taking down an active shooter themselves, unless they have specific training in handling those situations (i.e., FAR, FAR more training than a typical CCWL).
I do not want my children encouraged to attack or engage an active shooter by drills that are supposed to teach them how to be safe in that horrifying situation.
I do not want a culture of fear around schools, as that may escalate the mental and emotional issues that lead people to become school shooters in the first place.

This is insane.

[Ghostpanther]

How does something optional count as a solution to the issue at hand?

Same as I feel my option to carry concealed a handgun offers for me. Makes no difference what others may think when it comes to my own lawful right to defend myself with a firearm. Plus, I am not saying it is the one and all solution. It is just one more option the teachers should have.

[Elegiac]

How does something optional count as a solution to the issue at hand?

I brought this up in another thread but I'll reiterate it here just to illustrate the mindset of the 'armed teacher' supporters.

If they do actually care about gun violence it's a secondary concern at best; any and all of their 'solutions' are intended first and foremost to protect their guns, and to foster an environment in which gun ownership and gun violence are less contentious. They've already discounted the lives lost as a result, and don't take it into consideration.

Basically it's the equivalent of 'sorry I got caught' rather than 'sorry for the act itself'.

[Toppy]

To save others? should be easy kid or not.

I doubt it highly. In the very least they'd be so stressed at the situation that they'd likely miss and/or shoot someone else on accident.

Just up and killing someone isnt a simple task. Kids especially.

irl isnt a video game.

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I brought this up in another thread but I'll reiterate it here just to illustrate the mindset of the 'armed teacher' supporters.

If they do actually care about gun violence it's a secondary concern at best; any and all of their 'solutions' are intended first and foremost to protect their guns, and to foster an environment in which gun ownership and gun violence are less contentious. They've already discounted the lives lost as a result, and don't take it into consideration.

Basically it's the equivalent of 'sorry I got caught' rather than 'sorry for the act itself'.

In this case the solution is "Buy more guns, give'em to teachers!"

Its disgusting.

[Kathandira]

If its such a bad idea and so deadly, why haven't any children in TX schools, where some teachers have legally concealed carry for 10+ years, been gunned down? Shouldn't there be a pile of bodies and blood in the street by now?

Its almost as if this argument is so hyperbolic that if you train with it for 5 minutes, it will make you a Super Sayan without a tail.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...122-story.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-c...s-report-says/

(This one was a threat, not an incident) http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/02/20/a...oting-threats/

[Hilhen7]

Same as I feel my option to carry concealed a handgun offers for me. Makes no difference what others may think when it comes to my own lawful right to defend myself with a firearm. Plus, I am not saying it is the one and all solution. It is just one more option the teachers should have.

Having conceal and carry in schools is an option, but a bad option. I could say that having police officers teach classes would be an option, but it isn't a good one.

Teachers are not trained to act as police officers, and police officers are not trained to be teachers.

[Ghostpanther]

I doubt it highly. In the very least they'd be so stressed at the situation that they'd likely miss and/or shoot someone else on accident.

Just up and killing someone isnt a simple task. Kids especially.

irl isnt a video game.

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In this case the solution is "Buy more guns, give'em to teachers!"

Its disgusting.

I don't. While I do agree some would never have it in them to shoot someone else, many would if they felt they could save theirs or others lives. You need to have the mindset if you need to pull your firearm, you have to be willing to shoot the attacker if necessary. This happens more often than people think.

[Toppy]

I don't. While I do agree some would never have it in them to shoot someone else, many would if they felt they could save theirs or others lives. You need to have the mindset if you need to pull your firearm, you have to be willing to shoot the attacker if necessary. This happens more often than people think.

Against kids? Kids that teachers likely know?

[Ghostpanther]

It's an option, but a bad option. I could say that having police officers teach classes would be an option, but it isn't a good one.

Well, I disagree it is a bad option. I do agree having a licensed firearm instructor to teach a class is far better than just a normal police officer. For my conceal carry license, I had to take a class from a licensed firearm instructor.

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Against kids? Kids that teachers likely know?

Yes. If they feel they or another kid may die if they do not? Some would not hesitate. Then cry afterwards.

[Ace05]

While I don’t believe arming teachers is the answer. Realistically it may prevent SOME school shootings, people who commit these crimes usually do pick places where they won’t recieve any retaliation. Proof of this is in most cases they commit suicide or don’t fire at police when they arrive on scene (in most cases, not all). So it would make schools LESS of a target, however I don’t really believe it’s the answer. Obviously this doesn’t apply to every case, IE suicide by cop style shootings. So while I see why most people would be outraged by this being brought up, from a risk management perspective this is likely a topic that would be discussed at the rate school shootings have been happening in the United States.

[nacixems]

The snowflake atitude is not unique to the US. The killings are. I would ask you why that is, but i'm afraid you won't get it.

It's the guns.


What i thing is funny is how oblivious you people are. Arming the teachers, just like any civilians will just increase the number of killings even more. It's amazing how oblivious it is.
The news story will be: crazy teacher massacres students. Lovely!

It is amazing how corrupt US politics are when companies have more regulatory power than the people who vote the politicians in. What a great country indeed! xD
For gun regulation to happen, you gotta redo the rules for political party financing.

Well what u "failed to get" was , the snowflake attitude is unique to the US, it was not before, .. and guns have always been here , in large amounts, the issue is the culture has changed. snowflakes have always existed in other countries, not so much here, until the liberal movement, free handouts. a more europe culture. so. pretty sure ur the one that struggles seeing past your own agenda. nice try.

[Antiganon]

... Wait what?? I thought the Florida shooting with 17 deaths was the first of the year... Must be because that's the one that media all over the world covered?

It wasn't even the first mass shooting in a school this year.

Marshall County High School in Kentucky might not have technically qualified as a "mass shooting" because he only killed 2 people and injured 18 others.

Belmont High School in LA involved 5 injured, no deaths.

One student was fatally shot at Wake Forest University.

One student was shot and wounded in Italy High School in Italy, TX.

Two other shootings (one in New Orleans, one in Oxon Hill, MD) involved non students, outside, in vehicles, shooting a student, on school grounds.

Some would say that Wake Forest, New Orleans, and Oxon Hill don't count, as they did not take place inside a school. Those people are scum.

[McFuu]

It has a major point. Which is also supported by the highest court in the land here. The right to use firearms for self defense.

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They could use the conceal carry license and the weapon for their own personal use outside the schools. Plus it is a option for them. Not a requirement.

It's more a right to be armed against a tyrannical government, not specifically self defense. All of the amendments are there to protect you against the government, not people.


I'm also not trying to take away that right. I don't think it's governmental overreach to make sure gun owners are sane and responsible, since the time has passed where good decisions aren't being made by these people and innocents are suffering.

[Jastall]

Hasn't yet. In any of the schools which have done this.

The one in Florida had an armed security guard.

Also, Trump's proposal of ''arming the teachers'' seems to indicate mandatory training for them, because just giving concealed carry permits to those that are willing to take them seems very much like a half measure.

[zorkuus]

I do agree having a licensed firearm instructor to teach a class is far better than just a normal police officer. For my conceal carry license, I had to take a class from a licensed firearm instructor.

And now you're trying to jump to an "arm the kids" argument? Holy hell.