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  1. #681
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    @Zephire: The problem with BB (and he admitted that) is, that he is looking for farm/rush runs, while also admitting he is slacking. The farm runs run that smooth, because people don't slack and carry their weight.

    And we don't look for his failures. He doesn't have that many kills and less logged kills and on every log you find something that shows he slacks. It is true, you don't need 1,8 mil DPS for HC, but it makes the run faster and smoother. So if you want to join such a pug, you should deliver.

    Take me as an example: I have a main and a newly boosted to 110 WL (9 days old). My main joins 960+ multi curve pugs without linking anything and clears hc in one night. Yesterday we had a pretty bad pug, was advised as 960+ semi guild farm, but struggled. We stayed till argus, where 4-6 people managed to die in P1. We ditched them and one shot argus in the next group. False advertising. So these groups exist.

    My WL can't join this groups et (948 ilevel). But I can buy a boost. So I did. Gold doesn't matter. I wanted a HC clear for gear, I wanted it fast, I paid it. Went from 870 to 935 real quick in that run. That is what BB wants: Do less, get more. But he doesn't want to pay. The same ID I found a full clear normal run with that WL and 935. You have to join groups that match your characters and you will find groups. But if you expect to be carried by strangers you will have a hard time.

  2. #682
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirethas View Post
    So I took liberation of checking your log, since it can show more than just you don't dodge stuff, it also shows you don't understand your spec as well, and this isn't tryharding in any means, it's a basic stuff which, as you said you are experienced, would do even if you are slacking.

    First of all, you use Nightstalker talent yet you never vanished for 50%+ damage Envenom.
    Your Kingsbane usage is terrible, you don't realise (or simply don't care) that with Sinister Circulation trait you can do 2 Kingsbanes between Vendetta, you basically cut your Kingsbane damage in half (which is quite a lot).

    To evaluate your slack, you cost your group extra 10 seconds of fight on Varimathras. Let's say it's same slack on all bosses, in Antorus it adds up to 110 seconds only boss fights. Trash is hard to evaluate so I will just ignore that. Let's say you create group of dps like you. Normaly you have 14 dps in raid and if all of them slacked to cost 10 seconds of boss fight, that's 2 minutes per boss which results in 22 minutes in total. Now if you don't call that waste of time, I don't know what you do. Don't feel like you can slack just because someone picks it up for you, relying on others or just simply bs.

    It's these little things which makes big difference even when you are slacking. You don't have to mash your board and time everything perfectly, but misusing (or not using) your CDs at all is just lack of skill. And on top of that, you said you would take anyone without hesitation if he/she whispered you that nice fairy tale you wrote down (which was proven to not be true at all levels). Do you also believe that Earth is flat? Do you basically believe people just by what they tell you?

    These addons and logs might not be perfect, hence they might not be good at all, but ilvl at least gives you genearl idea of the potential of ones character and logs will you give you general idea of ones performance. And if I invite you after that fairly tale you wrote down and you will slack with 1.3m dps while you are capable of easily doing 1.8mil I would kick your ass from raid in a blink of a eye as it's disrespectful in all means if you are slacking while there are others who commit to the raid. You want to slack in raid? Well create your own slack group, hell there are even groups in LFG which are labeled as "slack" groups or w/e. In my experience 90% of those fail hard because no one really tries and it leads to wipes.

    Well, yeah, I am not defending slacking per se, I'm not. I am aware that right now, I'm doing things wrong, but it's mostly personal issues I have with the game etc that make me lose motivation, still I want to somewhat keep up with gear etc, cause it's quite useful to have even outside of raids. This was not always me, I just need a new game I suppose, as Legion has sucked the joy out of me.

    The vanish-thing is an example of my own slack. I think that the whole idea of using Vanish as an offensive cooldown is AWFUL. I guess I don't use it out of both slack and despise toward that gameplay idea. I want vanish to be only an defensive, escape ability, and even though it's not, I guess I still treat it like that. This is also the reason I use Boots instead of Legendary shoulders, to make vanish less needed in my rotation.

    For Kingsbane, I am not sure you are correct, I don't have CoF trinket anymore but the boots does reduce the cooldown of Vendetta a lot. If I do a 2nd Kingsbane, Vendetta has gotten ready before the next KB, and if I'm not mistaken, it's better do do Vendetta asap and never hold it more than necessary, meaning it's better to wait 10 second with KB than wait 10 seconds with Vendetta.

    If I didn't use Boots, I would not doubt you one second, but now I actually gotta try this.
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  3. #683
    Make own group, people don't want to waste time wiping.

    I would accept people over 950 tbh.
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  4. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    The vanish-thing is an example of my own slack. I think that the whole idea of using Vanish as an offensive cooldown is AWFUL. I guess I don't use it out of both slack and despise toward that gameplay idea. I want vanish to be only an defensive, escape ability, and even though it's not, I guess I still treat it like that. This is also the reason I use Boots instead of Legendary shoulders, to make vanish less needed in my rotation.
    No I am a bit confused. Vanish (or breaking stealth) has been a DPS cool down for a long time. In Classic you used it to reset threat and starting WotlK to get buffs. Cant find info on TBC anymore and can't remember. In PvP you used it since classic to keep stun lock/garrote silence up or to run away (<- this was the only defensive use of vanish). So to me Vanish was 99% of the time an offensive damage enhancing ability. Its nothing new and should be used by a former hardcore cutting edge player a lot.

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Well, yeah, I am not defending slacking per se, I'm not. I am aware that right now, I'm doing things wrong, but it's mostly personal issues I have with the game etc that make me lose motivation, still I want to somewhat keep up with gear etc, cause it's quite useful to have even outside of raids. This was not always me, I just need a new game I suppose, as Legion has sucked the joy out of me.

    The vanish-thing is an example of my own slack. I think that the whole idea of using Vanish as an offensive cooldown is AWFUL. I guess I don't use it out of both slack and despise toward that gameplay idea. I want vanish to be only an defensive, escape ability, and even though it's not, I guess I still treat it like that. This is also the reason I use Boots instead of Legendary shoulders, to make vanish less needed in my rotation.

    For Kingsbane, I am not sure you are correct, I don't have CoF trinket anymore but the boots does reduce the cooldown of Vendetta a lot. If I do a 2nd Kingsbane, Vendetta has gotten ready before the next KB, and if I'm not mistaken, it's better do do Vendetta asap and never hold it more than necessary, meaning it's better to wait 10 second with KB than wait 10 seconds with Vendetta.

    If I didn't use Boots, I would not doubt you one second, but now I actually gotta try this.
    And this is where checking logs can be very helpful. I looked only into varimathras fight so there could be differencies but on that fight you used Vendetta every minute (give or take). Now from my own experience with Sinister Circulation you KB cd is roughly 30 seconds (this allows you to line up toxic blades with every other last 8 seconds of KB). What you describe holds true only if you tripple vendetta cd relics (not sure about CoF) then yes. Otherwise Im pretty sure you are losing dps by not doing it. I mean, it's always worth to try

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I think that the whole idea of using Vanish as an offensive cooldown is AWFUL. I guess I don't use it out of both slack and despise toward that gameplay idea. I want vanish to be only an defensive, escape ability, and even though it's not, I guess I still treat it like that. This is also the reason I use Boots instead of Legendary shoulders, to make vanish less needed in my rotation.
    Vanish has always been a dps cooldown and using boots doesn't make vanish "less needed"; it's still a main dps cooldown.

    Odd that it bothers you so much

  7. #687
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vluffyvlaush View Post
    No I am a bit confused. Vanish (or breaking stealth) has been a DPS cool down for a long time. In Classic you used it to reset threat and starting WotlK to get buffs. Cant find info on TBC anymore and can't remember. In PvP you used it since classic to keep stun lock/garrote silence up or to run away (<- this was the only defensive use of vanish). So to me Vanish was 99% of the time an offensive damage enhancing ability. Its nothing new and should be used by a former hardcore cutting edge player a lot.
    Yes, but only recently has it become more mandatory it seems. Since MoP, sadly, it's been quite mandatory, due to talents, but before that, the only benefit you got was an Ambush instead of like a Sinister Strike, that did slightly more damage, but not crazy much. I have raided some hardcore, and MoP and forward I did use Vanish offensively, but I never liked it.

    Since WoD though, I didn't do as much hardcore stuff, just some few occasions, and therefore, I have made my rotation a bit more chill, and still done fairly okey.

    The sole reason I HATE this, is that it messes up my stealth bar compared to my regular action bar. Since vanilla, I had Eviscerate, Envenom or now Run Through, aka, the main damage combo spender on Button 3. Always 3, thats where I love it and want it. BUT when I am in stealth, I prio my stealth abilities, like sap, garrote, cheap shot etc. Since vanilla, I always had Cheap Shot on button 3 in stealth bar. Always.

    So this force me to either re-bind some abilities, like putting cheap shot on 4 or Envenom on 4, which I don't want to do OR, bind them to a button that is not 1-6 (the 6 buttons I use the most) but Envenom is defenitly top used, so I don't want it at like Shift-3. I LOATHE using abilities that don't require stealth in stealth. This is also the reason I always disliked Subtlety.

    And it's always nice to have vanish avalaible, if I get aggro somehow, from adds or even boss, to escape that.
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  8. #688
    TIL good players are tryhards
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Nobody is stopping you to play Elemental casually during questing or raiding #1000 with your disabled mage friends.

  9. #689
    Unfortunately Blizzard can't fix the community behaviour.
    It sure sucks, but its the paradox of life. It's the same in the job market, you need 5 years of experience, but you can't get that because all jobs require the exp.
    You can't get 950 if you can't get into raid groups

  10. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mlz View Post
    TIL good players are tryhards
    Being entitled and outspoken about it is the new black, it seems.

  11. #691
    @Vluffyvlaush:
    Right, fair enough. If you go with a "Quick zerg" then you should push it, I agree. Was a bit hard to backtrack all of the conversation. The attitude annoyed me greatly so tried but just couldn't read back more than a page or two^^

    I've tried several "speed runs" which usually ends up failing Aggramar and taking like 4h. That might be speed, I don't know, it's 11 bosses after all but I feel like it should be closer to 2h? I'm beginning to think that "Speed" and "Quick" is just advertisement without meaning, like the "x/11 mythic clear leader". Though I'm just a pleb playing without addons and puging so what do I know :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Silox View Post
    Unfortunately Blizzard can't fix the community behaviour.
    It sure sucks, but its the paradox of life. It's the same in the job market, you need 5 years of experience, but you can't get that because all jobs require the exp.
    You can't get 950 if you can't get into raid groups
    We can fix it and Blizzard is part of "we". We all have to take responsibility goes both ways. Don't leech and don't assume that everyone with lower then X ilvl will do so. We have a rough road ahead but this internet thing is still quite young and only now have whole generations that doesn't know how life was before internet. It'll sort it self out eventually, probably when the first pure internet generation have kids or so. We gotta lay out the foundations though!

    The job part is just inflation. A job requires X -> gets loads of applications where some say they had done X and Y -> another job now requires x and y -> some applications say they also did z -> and so on until it's just a way of who can sell whom to whom. It's not so much about experience as it is social engineering. Both things is good but yeah. Chill with the increasing demands!
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  12. #692
    Herald of the Titans bloodwulf's Avatar
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    I guess i got lucky. My friend and I found a boomkin from Greymane (i think that is the server, we dont play on that server) that runs a normal run on Saturdays. No real Ilevel requirement and he fully explains every fight for everyone. Last Saturday we one shot everything except the 2nd to last boss (tanks messed up combo) and the Coven (a few dps decided stacking on lightning was fun). Dude is one of last bastions of good left among players it seems. He is patient beyond belief, and his Boomkin was doing at least 25% more dps than the next highest every fight. I have not raided anything since heroic gul'dan, and then to be able to immediately get into Ant on a alt is awesome, let alone to have my friend whose last raid was Heroic ICC be able to join in and be immediately accepted speaks highly of the RL.

    945 is not required for normal, even for a farm speed run. I think One shots of all but two bosses in about 3ish hours is perfectly acceptable, that is with breaks and random afks. If you are looking for better than that you shouldnt be pugging, you should find a guild.
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  13. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    @Vluffyvlaush:
    Right, fair enough. If you go with a "Quick zerg" then you should push it, I agree. Was a bit hard to backtrack all of the conversation. The attitude annoyed me greatly so tried but just couldn't read back more than a page or two^^
    Most off them are around 2 hours. Sometimes takes a bit longer. In the last two weeks we left 2 off them, because these semi guilds had nothing to do with the advertised runs. We ignore 1-8/11 mythic lead groups, because 1-8 seems like the "we can get 20 people online 2-4 times a week, but we lack movement so we are stuck here" groups. I don't raid mythic anymore, I don't know where the first wall is. But then you are fine.

    For alts we are looking for different groups and we find them. Usually takes 4 hours to clear, but it is possible. And you don't need to raid to get high item levels. Spam m+, you will miss the tier boni, but you are fine item level wise. And I have to say it for the 1000th time: There are groups as low as 930 for HC without curve. We checked yesterday and there were three of them. But it take ages to fill these groups and it gets worse if the tell people its a progress run or the probably won't clear. Because most 930 players like the boosting. And its way easier to complain on forums about 1000 instant declines and that people are retarding for wanting 945 for normal, than progressing HC in a 930 pug.

    Same goes for jobs. The without XP jobs are usually in a smaller company which pays less. But why look for an entry level, low paid job 30 minutes away from home, when the big company has open positions. Get that a lot from friends. But I like mailing them job offerings and listening to their complaints why it isn't the right job for them (overqualified is used often there).
    @bloodwulf: there are plenty of groups like that on the tool. German battle.net forum have a whole community. And 3 hours with some wipes is fine. But I can have a 70-90 min normal run with zero. Why should I skip that on my main? For my alt these runs are perfectly fine.
    Last edited by mmoc9a579d0b1a; 2018-02-22 at 01:37 PM.

  14. #694
    The Lightbringer Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirethas View Post
    And this is where checking logs can be very helpful. I looked only into varimathras fight so there could be differencies but on that fight you used Vendetta every minute (give or take). Now from my own experience with Sinister Circulation you KB cd is roughly 30 seconds (this allows you to line up toxic blades with every other last 8 seconds of KB). What you describe holds true only if you tripple vendetta cd relics (not sure about CoF) then yes. Otherwise Im pretty sure you are losing dps by not doing it. I mean, it's always worth to try

    I tested this myself.

    At pull, I used both 1st Vendetta and 1st KB together, then I used 2nd KB as soon as it was ready. When 2nd Vendetta got ready, 3rd Kingsbane had a 15 sec cooldown left.

    With my regular rotation, by holding off KB until Vendetta is ready, I notice that when my 2nd Kingsbane was ready, 2nd Vendetta had 20 seconds left.

    My guess is that it's better to wait 20 seconds for Vendetta than to wait 15 seconds to use KB. Since Vendetta is so strong, I would guess that should be prioed to be used as early as possible. I can also only assume they are better to be used together, whether I wait 20sec or 15sec and not use them separetly?

    This would infact result in that my original rotation was better and to NOT use KB in between?
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  15. #695
    The Insane Aeula's Avatar
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    That’s why you have to get your foot in the door at the start of the patch and pray to RNGesus for mercy.

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    I tested this myself.

    At pull, I used both 1st Vendetta and 1st KB together, then I used 2nd KB as soon as it was ready. When 2nd Vendetta got ready, 3rd Kingsbane had a 15 sec cooldown left.

    With my regular rotation, by holding off KB until Vendetta is ready, I notice that when my 2nd Kingsbane was ready, 2nd Vendetta had 20 seconds left.

    My guess is that it's better to wait 20 seconds for Vendetta than to wait 15 seconds to use KB. Since Vendetta is so strong, I would guess that should be prioed to be used as early as possible. I can also only assume they are better to be used together, whether I wait 20sec or 15sec and not use them separetly?

    This would infact result in that my original rotation was better and to NOT use KB in between?
    So, I made a research for you. Looking at rank 10 world assa rogue using boots, he's using KB and Vendetta on CD not lining them up. Simply put, wether you delay one or another, you are losing extra cast of that spell which results in dps loss regardless of you lining them up. Boots setup is in this weird desync spot since blizzard introduced Sinister Circulation trait and right after nerfed vendetta relics and further CoF which made impossible to sync those 2 spells together. So if you hate vanishing that much which results in not using shoulders, just use both on CD. If this caught your interest feel free to check this https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...translate=true and you can compare your cd usage with this.

  17. #697
    Pandaren Monk Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    I'm not talking about makeing more "fun raids". Most raids are fun the first two or three times. Afterwards it becomes a boring chore most players would skip if their compulsive need for 'moar lewt' wasn't that strong. I'm talking about making raids fun in general and not something you only do out of greed.

    Blizzard would sooner remove raids (which will probably happen) rather than making such a significant change in vision, since WoW's whole replay value is based on the carrot-on-a-stick principle.
    How do you propose they do that? Raiding is supposed to be the challenging aspect of the game and many find that to be "fun." If you just clear something two or three times on an easy difficulty and then find yourself bored, raiding probably isn't your cup of tea. Finding a good group of people to raid with will also make the experience more fun as well. Curious what you think they can do to change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    I guess i got lucky. My friend and I found a boomkin from Greymane (i think that is the server, we dont play on that server) that runs a normal run on Saturdays. No real Ilevel requirement and he fully explains every fight for everyone. Last Saturday we one shot everything except the 2nd to last boss (tanks messed up combo) and the Coven (a few dps decided stacking on lightning was fun). Dude is one of last bastions of good left among players it seems. He is patient beyond belief, and his Boomkin was doing at least 25% more dps than the next highest every fight. I have not raided anything since heroic gul'dan, and then to be able to immediately get into Ant on a alt is awesome, let alone to have my friend whose last raid was Heroic ICC be able to join in and be immediately accepted speaks highly of the RL.

    945 is not required for normal, even for a farm speed run. I think One shots of all but two bosses in about 3ish hours is perfectly acceptable, that is with breaks and random afks. If you are looking for better than that you shouldnt be pugging, you should find a guild.
    Normal can be carried by a few good players as long as most people in the group have some idea about what's going on in the raid and aren't going to kill the group. Looking at the group finder though, it doesn't seem like the requirements to get into a group become absurd until you step up to heroic where everyone really needs to do their part. Still sounds like a very patient person though and we definitely need more of him rather than "no wtf u r doing or kick" leaders.

  18. #698
    Herald of the Titans bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post

    Normal can be carried by a few good players as long as most people in the group have some idea about what's going on in the raid and aren't going to kill the group. Looking at the group finder though, it doesn't seem like the requirements to get into a group become absurd until you step up to heroic where everyone really needs to do their part. Still sounds like a very patient person though and we definitely need more of him rather than "no wtf u r doing or kick" leaders.
    Exactly. He actually runs a heroic version on another night, and only requires 925 and will actually bend that rule if you run the normal and pull your weight. Dude has the patience of a saint. Also forgive me but Boomkin must be pretty simple now because he was calling out every mechanic and actually telling individuals in real time where they needed to go for certain mechanics while still pulling like 2mil dps on some fights.
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  19. #699
    Pandaren Monk Swampmoose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodwulf View Post
    Exactly. He actually runs a heroic version on another night, and only requires 925 and will actually bend that rule if you run the normal and pull your weight. Dude has the patience of a saint. Also forgive me but Boomkin must be pretty simple now because he was calling out every mechanic and actually telling individuals in real time where they needed to go for certain mechanics while still pulling like 2mil dps on some fights.
    Good awareness and familiarity with his class I suppose. That's actually pretty nice to be able to show what you can do on a normal night then be able to join Heroic after. Good to hear someone had a good experience with this.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Swampmoose View Post
    How do you propose they do that? Raiding is supposed to be the challenging aspect of the game and many find that to be "fun." If you just clear something two or three times on an easy difficulty and then find yourself bored, raiding probably isn't your cup of tea. Finding a good group of people to raid with will also make the experience more fun as well. Curious what you think they can do to change this.
    I never said it shouldn't be challenging; au contraire, challenge is fun for me. Nor did I claim I knew how they could ameliorate replayability. Fact of the matter is that once you cleared mythic once, twice or thrice, there's barely any intrinsic motivation left to clear it a fourth time beside greed. Never mind heroic, which is on farm long before mythic is. Complete your BiS set and you'll often have to force guild members to show up.

    Heck, I don't even blame them. Doing the same thing over and over again is hardly ever experienced as a fun activity. Which is why I quit raiding instantly after having received my mythic 4 set bonus; I could finally start doing what I enjoy and completely ignore what I hated.

    Remove the tiers from raiding. Will people still do it after having completed it a few times? If not, it means it's not fun and there's a major design flaw.
    Last edited by nocturnus; 2018-02-22 at 09:37 PM.

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